What was with this Mustang? 2F05H for $88,000?

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I think that what happens here is that these cars, are restored to the nth degree. They are nut and bolt restorations on a rotisserie. The cars are better than new in basically every way. You buy this car and you do not have to worry about anything, as everything is basically new. So, the buyers just see this incredibly gorgeous car, that they can immediately be shown and enjoyed and not need to worry about much.
Now, having said that, there were obviously two extremely wealthy guys who wanted this car and in the end they were just fighting over who has the deeper pockets and who was going to cry uncle first. These auctions will bring out the competitiveness in these people. Most extremely wealthy people, unless they somehow inherited their money, are extremely competitive people, that is how they got to where they got. This became an ego buy, it's the "I am not going to loose in front of all these people syndrome" especially on national TV, and that is how we have ended up in this market where none of these car prices make any sense... Now Haggerty and NADA will look at this sale and the price there will go up, and make this hobby even more unaffordable...
 

delawarebill

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[url=https://ibb.co/nRVcVLd][img]https://i.ibb.co/yVMyMQv/side.png[/img][/url]
i love watching barrett and mecom. on saturdays that brings out the mega millionaires. so $88 grand is pocket change. what i really see is business owners making major profits .. parts and labor cost them $1500 bucks and u pay $10k....
 
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I think that what happens here is that these cars, are restored to the nth degree. They are nut and bolt restorations on a rotisserie. The cars are better than new in basically every way. You buy this car and you do not have to worry about anything, as everything is basically new. So, the buyers just see this incredibly gorgeous car, that they can immediately be shown and enjoyed and not need to worry about much.
Now, having said that, there were obviously two extremely wealthy guys who wanted this car and in the end they were just fighting over who has the deeper pockets and who was going to cry uncle first. These auctions will bring out the competitiveness in these people. Most extremely wealthy people, unless they somehow inherited their money, are extremely competitive people, that is how they got to where they got. This became an ego buy, it's the "I am not going to loose in front of all these people syndrome" especially on national TV, and that is how we have ended up in this market where none of these car prices make any sense... Now Haggerty and NADA will look at this sale and the price there will go up, and make this hobby even more unaffordable...

I'm not sure the assumption that the car is ready to drive always holds up. Extreme restorations look great and the cars show well, but that doesn't mean the work has been done to sort out everything. I've seen multi-year concours level restorations that are basically undriveable because brakes aren't sorted, the engine and carbs aren't tuned, the clutch hasn't been adjusted - but dang they sure look purty.

That aside, I don't see much downside to increasing sales prices for our cars. Higher prices mean there is more margin for doing restorations in the first place. This drives up demand for quality reproduction parts, which makes restorations more affordable. It also keeps cars that would otherwise be cut up for parts or scrapped around longer. If you already have a car, access to better and more parts is a good thing. If you don't have a car, you may pay more to get started, but now you have options as to how you go about putting your car on the road.
 
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Bobby

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I know the owner of a “speed” shop who had a “restored” 68 Camaro form one of those big auctions. All was okay until the drive home. Brakes were a little mushy and the mechanical vent was jammed shut. The car had an awesome body and paint. Upon disassembly of the vent, they pulled out a nasty smelly rats nest. There were other issues related to a rush job in time to make the auction. The Camaro spent a month in the shop and the associated $$$. You get what you get. Sometimes chicken….sometimes feathers.
 

Mister 4x4

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Just realised this is probably the big block, noticed the scoops etc 🙃
Not so much. The NASA hood doesn't indicate anything. Mine's a factory Ram Air car with an H-Code (351C-2V), and there were 302 cars with NASA hoods (the one I fell in love with as a teenager had a non-functional Ram Air hood, as a matter of fact). If anything, based on that poorly done TuTone treatment on that hood, for all we know it originally could've been a plain-hood car (not likely, though). I'd bet money it didn't come with stripes, spoilers, or Magnum 500s, either... questionable on the factory Ram Air, too.

This car was purported to be either a Q-Code or R-Code on the initial B-J website (there's another thread about this), and it turns out the car was really an H-Code. So, the seller was either dishonest or didn't know what he had, B-J either had no idea the seller was lying (or not), didn't do any checking of their own and/or just went with it, and the buyers were playing chicken with their checkbooks, as Chuck and 'Junk said. Perfect storm of chicanery, if you ask me.

That being said, the car looked nice (from the pics that were available), but that doesn't tell the whole story. If honesty held true, a really nice '72 H-Code Mach 1 still would've pulled over $30K all day long... but I believe the lies got both the seller and B-J a bigger pay day, and now the '71-'73 world will now suffer from inflation across the board: sellers will want top dollar for any '71-'73 in any condition, buyers get hosed if they pay what the sellers want, and the aftermarket manufacturing prices go up as well. Some people see it as a good thing (especially, those with a mind to sell), but I think it just hurts the guy who wants to have a cool '71-'73 Mustang of his own and may not have super deep pockets. The more dishonest sellers will be just that much more emboldened to lie about what they have, costing Average Joe more money across the board for that cool car he's always wanted. I'm not saying these things should be given away, by any means... just that the fair market should stay fair. I know the guy I bought mine from wanted Boss 351 prices for the pile of rust H-Code with a seized engine, Fred Flintstoned floors, no title, no keys, and [almost] no hope of bringing it back from the dead. Armed with the information I learned here, I was able to talk him back down to reality, and only paid about 1/3 of his asking price... which was helpful, because in order to turn that rusty turd in my avatar pic back into the cool car in my signature pic below ran me 'just' $45K in parts alone, not including tax & shipping on said parts, and doing everything myself.

The only real upside I can see is the aftermarket vendors coming up with more reproduction parts to choose from, but that's been chugging along and getting better for years now (albeit at a slow and untimely pace, for my needs anyway).

I have mixed feelings about the big-production auctions (B-J, Mecum, et al). It's cool to see cool cars - always. But I hate seeing 'overpriced' cool cars having such an effect on our cool cars... not that the whole genre is on its way out, anyway - most younger people these days could give a rip about classic and muscle cars... unless they find their way into a popular action movie. I think the sun is setting on our 'hobby' sooner than we think.
 
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I'm not saying these things should be given away, by any means... just that the fair market should stay fair. I know the guy I bought mine from wanted Boss 351 prices for the pile of rust H-Code with a seized engine, Fred Flintstoned floors, no title, no keys, and [almost] no hope of bringing it back from the dead. Armed with the information I learned here, I was able to talk him back down to reality, and only paid about 1/3 of his asking price... which was helpful, because in order to turn that rusty turd in my avatar pic back into the cool car in my signature pic below ran me 'just' $45K in parts alone, not including tax & shipping on said parts, and doing everything myself.

So given your example, assuming you paid $5k for your car to start, your $45k in parts, an average rate of $65 per hour for shop hours (and that is cheap these days), and 500 hours of your time (you probably spent more), your car can be reproduced for $82,500. $88k is not out of line.

The fair market price is whatever a buyer agrees to pay a seller for anything - a car, a house, an oil painting, a share of stock, a bag of cashews. Every auction I have attended did not have someone holding a gun to a bidder's head to get them to bid. I think we can safely assume that was the case here. Sellers want high prices, buyers want low prices. I'm willing to bet that if someone walked up to you and offered you $88,000 for your car, you would not try to talk them down.
 
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Since Graham Man brought the subject of this lime car up after I did, I feel a need to again reference a comparison I brought up in my post. Just compare the lime car to the real deal red J code 429CJ 4 speed Mach I that sold for less money!!!


If the lime car sold for $88K, the red car was at least a $150K car all day long! Maybe the same guy bought both cars. It's too bad the red car didn't have the folddown rear seat and A/C, but you can't have everything, lol.
 

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So given your example, assuming you paid $5k for your car to start, your $45k in parts, an average rate of $65 per hour for shop hours (and that is cheap these days), and 500 hours of your time (you probably spent more), your car can be reproduced for $82,500. $88k is not out of line.

The fair market price is whatever a buyer agrees to pay a seller for anything - a car, a house, an oil painting, a share of stock, a bag of cashews. Every auction I have attended did not have someone holding a gun to a bidder's head to get them to bid. I think we can safely assume that was the case here. Sellers want high prices, buyers want low prices. I'm willing to bet that if someone walked up to you and offered you $88,000 for your car, you would not try to talk them down.
Actually, my fuzzy math has me spending over 2000 hours (all day, both days per weekend, every weekend for 4 years is over 3200 hours, and it's fair to say that I missed a few weekends here and there). At the time, $100/hr was a fair rate, but I figured since I was basically semi-unskilled doing it for myself, I would've only charged myself $50/hr (for labor as a semi-skilled non-professional), which is actually more like $100K on top of the parts, tools I needed, original purchase cost, 2 sessions of media blasting, and the paint & body (which I did not do myself). So realistically, I've spent North of $55K, and added to my fuzzy math labor (if I'd paid someone like myself to do it) would have it all coming in around $155K.

Brutal honesty: My car is definitely NOT worth that number (to anybody else but me).

My car can be reproduced for around $10-12K over the cost of having a good '71 Mach 1 H-Code to start with. That, is the difference between mine and most others: I needed to restore mine to point where it could even become a car again before adding the performance and cosmetic accessories I chose for my vision... which realistically, is nothing more than a bunch of upholstery, rims, tires, power accessories, a stereo, and lots of engine go-fast goodies. Had I gotten a better car to start with, I wouldn't have spent nearly as much (time or money). THAT is the reason I have so much money tied up in my car.

Reality is, you'll never get back what you have into a car project... unless the right person comes along at the right time. In this case, that happened... however, the level of dishonesty involved in this sale is what I was pointing out. I don't disagree that the fair market prices are going up, nor do I disagree with the attention our cars are getting these days having a positive effect on that. I do not agree with a seller resorting to dishonest tactics in order to make fast money by taking advantage of the non-educated individuals (or in this case, quite possibly drunk with ego-issues and deep checkbooks). I also don't agree with people celebrating dishonest people making out like bandits when they commit fraud - a lot of people don't have issues with that [apparently] - I'm not one of them. We've had this discussion before, and the basis of my opinion centers on the dishonesty factor - nothing more.

You'd lose that bet, BTW. It'll never be sold (unless I'm gone and she needs the money). You can't put a price on my feelings of satisfaction that I successfully brought my car back from such a low point. It's more than 'just a car' to me - it's literally one of my accomplishments (that is actually tangible) and also represents my middle finger to so many negative people I've encountered who said it couldn't be done. Puts a smile on my face every time I drive it for those very reasons aside from being 'just a cool car' (that I happen to own).

But if I were to ever sell it, I also wouldn't try to pass it off as anything more than what it is: a Restomodded 1971 Mach 1 H-Code that's more of a collection of aftermarket reproduction parts than original. It's a $25K car, at best.
 
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skerwath

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NADA lists high retail at 88k. Collectible cars go with market demand. Just the fact it’s listed in the book that much almost guarantee you can trade your title to the bank for that price. Cars are only worth whatever someone is willing to pay. You can pick it apart six ways from Sunday as an “expert”, but someone, somewhere will pay what the book shows. Just because a collection of individuals don’t think your car is “worth [email protected]&#” doesn’t mean you won’t get your “fair price”. It’s sad that even friends and family will treat you like a gut wagon, waiting for desperation to kick in. Ignore the buzzards for what they are.

P.S. I sold mine for more than I wanted. That 25k was starting high. Nobody wanted to haggle. So be it. I’m off to the land of the rising sun to find a police interceptor.
 

Hemikiller

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The lime car had lots of errors and omissions in the original listing and is certainly very lacking in documentation without even a basic Marti Report to show the factory-delivered condition. As Ford guys, a Marti is pretty much SOP when offering a car for sale these days. The red CJ Kevken posted is a hot mess underhood. I find the vinyl roof an interesting "addition" and it would certainly make me look deeper into the car.

I think the thing that I find most shocking is these are Boss 351 / 429CJ prices - for 90+ point cars, not what's being presented in these auctions.
 

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NADA lists high retail at 88k. Collectible cars go with market demand. Just the fact it’s listed in the book that much almost guarantee you can trade your title to the bank for that price. Cars are only worth whatever someone is willing to pay. You can pick it apart six ways from Sunday as an “expert”, but someone, somewhere will pay what the book shows. Just because a collection of individuals don’t think your car is “worth [email protected]&#” doesn’t mean you won’t get your “fair price”. It’s sad that even friends and family will treat you like a gut wagon, waiting for desperation to kick in. Ignore the buzzards for what they are.

P.S. I sold mine for more than I wanted. That 25k was starting high. Nobody wanted to haggle. So be it. I’m off to the land of the rising sun to find a police interceptor.
$88K... for what? A legit R-Code - I can understand that. An H-Code being passed off as an R-Code until after the sale is made? Not so much. I admit that KBB.com is a lot different today than the last time I bothered to look (probably several years ago), but part of that is because of the artificial inflation by less-than-honest car flippers doing whatever they can to make a buck.

Glad to hear you got more than you asked for with your car, Skerwath... I'd wager that you didn't have to lie to get it, either. Good luck finding that unicorn.
 
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NADA lists high retail at 88k. Collectible cars go with market demand. Just the fact it’s listed in the book that much almost guarantee you can trade your title to the bank for that price. Cars are only worth whatever someone is willing to pay. You can pick it apart six ways from Sunday as an “expert”, but someone, somewhere will pay what the book shows. Just because a collection of individuals don’t think your car is “worth [email protected]&#” doesn’t mean you won’t get your “fair price”. It’s sad that even friends and family will treat you like a gut wagon, waiting for desperation to kick in. Ignore the buzzards for what they are.

P.S. I sold mine for more than I wanted. That 25k was starting high. Nobody wanted to haggle. So be it. I’m off to the land of the rising sun to find a police interceptor.
I like and appreciate your point. I have several cars I'll be selling from my collection soon. What's funny is that I have never used the book guides to sell my cars. I tend to compare what I'm selling to what others are asking for comparable cars out there. It's strange to me that there are people who simply go to the NADA book, classify a car as 1 to 4, and immediately pay based on that information alone. It's hard for me to ask more than $30K for one of my cars when I see ten in similar condition splattered on Facebook, Ebay, and Craigslist for the same amount of money, even when the NADA says the car is worth $80K. There are a lot of these cars for sale out there right now. I am trying to position myself and the cars to bring the most money. I want that fat, uneducated, drunk, filthy rich guy at Barrett Jackson to open up the NADA book and lay down $80,000 for one of my cars because the NADA book says it's worth that! I just need to put the car in an auction where there aren't 10 such cars with people willing to take $30K, lol.
 
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skerwath

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DM me. I know a guy than can move what you need to move.
 
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