1971 M codes to Q codes

[Boss1Ray]

Does anyone know if the M codes were built to a certain date in 71 and then the 1971 Q codes were produced? 

Saw this post in another forum and it peaked my interest.

".. All my sources say that the lower compression 4V motor was introduced in May of 1971 and it was called the 351 CJ. I have seen where this motor was listed as the Q motor ( Q code) Now my main question is... Did they continue with the M code to finish out the year or did they end it right there in May of 1971? ( and from thereon out install CJ motors..) From what I gather the higher compression engine goes by the term 4V and the lower compression goes by CJ ( or cobra jet) How can I tell what I have? My VIN states M code. Could I have one of the last true M codes made? It was built on May 28th, 1971..."

Ray

 

[secluff]

Ray, there seems to still be some confusion over these two engines. I believe it may be a WIKI listing that has some incorrect info and is causing the confusion. The 429 listing is also not spared from the wrong info. Ram air was a $65.00 option on the M and that did not make the M into a Cobra Jet. The 71 351CJ (code Q) DID NOT replace the 71M. The 71 Q was a April 71 release and was an optional engine along with "M" that remained in production till the end of 71 production. I have a late build 71 Mach 1 (7-28-71) that has the M code 351C.

I believe the April 71"Q" 351 was just a test run for Ford. All the manufacturers knew that stricter emissions and safety laws were on the horizon and and most of the 71 engines in their present configuration could not meet those new requirements. This engine was just a sign of things to come.

As safety and fuel mileage started to take center stage, the word performance was starting to become just a word in the Dictionary. Even the word Cobra Jet disappeared from the air cleaner lids and window stickers sometime in early 72. Ray, I know you tried to pin down exactly when that took place but I believe we never did get a good enough cross section of early Q codes to do so.    

 

[Boss1Ray]

Secluff (Steve) - excellent info (as I have come to expect from you!!!) Thanks for that.

Not positive, but from what I have pulled from many old Marti reports - last day of 1971 Mustang production was some day in the first week of August 1971. Very tough to nail it down but you know I am trying!!

BTW if anyone has a collection of old Marti reports - please email them to me PLEASE! Send to [email protected] I really like early and very late production cars. But ALL are appreciated! If you have a LOT (like DON LOL) please contact me to arrange an online repository to make the sharing easier!

I will continue to share what I am able to discern from all them on this site! The more the better!!! Don't worry about duplicates - I can sort!

Ray

 

[c9zx]

Steve, You are the Yoda of all things vintage Ford. Thank you, Chuck

 

[SVO2SCJ]

ANYTIME you have a question like that I would pay for the Ala Cart Question option for Kevin Marti Auto. (Used to be $5)

Warning you have to know HOW TO POSE A QUESTION!! In this case, if you asked "what was the last day a 1971 M code mustang was built?" that may not tell you the last car RELEASED (from building)

Mark

 

[Carolina_Mountain_Mustangs]

There were for sure some odd combinations in 71 for the M & Q cars. I turned down the Mach 1 M last year I should have got that was a vinyl roof car.

They only made 1 yes one M code Fastback or Mach 1 with a C-4. There was also only 1 one Q code 4 speed convertible. So there are two that you need to watch for. There was only a total of 154 Q codes made in 71 so about any model Q is a find. Pulled info from Marti's book.

David

 

[Boss1Ray]

Dont trust that C4 info. But the one H code 4 speed vin was the number used to hide the 71 Boss 302 car.

There is a bunch written on here about that car. It recently sold to Bob Perkins. (almost said Bob Beers - HO slot car collector like me).

Ray

 

[timsweet]

Just a side note on Ford engines and production dates.

As collectors or restorers we'd very much like to have  firm start and stop dates for Ford engines, but in my experience that's a unicorn.

Back before Marti Auto Works had access to as much Ford data as they do now, I was researching my 1974 Grand Sport Torino. The engine was in fact a CJ although however the there supposedly no CJ engines built in 1974.

Somewhere I have more of the data, but the short version of the story is that records were found that suggest that around 400 CJ engines were build in 1974 and one found it's way into this Torino.

Tim

 

[secluff]

Tim, I don't know where the "Experts" are digging up all this flawed info we're being fed! The no 74 Q engine seems to resurface occasionally. Although it had lost most of it's bite and was more gum than teeth, the Q engine was very much part of the 1974 engine line up. It was available in the Gran Torino, Mercury Montego, new full size Cougar, Pantera, and the Torino "Trooper" Police package. For what ever reason it was never released for the Gran Torino Elite.

With very strict emissions laws now in place and emissions compliance testing very expensive, anything produced in just a few hundred would have never been approved by the "Suits". EVERY engine, transmission, and differential combination had to be tested. Very expensive and time consuming for the manufacturer. That's why as the years went by you saw less engine, transmission and rear gear options and things like ram air disappear from the option list altogether.

The 74 Gran Torino Sport was a nice car. I had looked at them but just could not give up my 72 Sport at the time. They ran one more year but only sold a little over 5,000 of them so they were discontinued in 76. Really hated to see the Sport disappear, it arrived wrapped in a beautiful fastback body with big blocks and CJ engines and left with three engines with less horsepower than today's 6 cylinder Mustang!

 

[timsweet]

Tim, I don't know where the "Experts" are digging up all this flawed info we're being fed! The no 74 Q engine seems to resurface occasionally. Although it had lost most of it's bite and was more gum than teeth, the Q engine was very much part of the 1974 engine line up. It was available in the Gran Torino, Mercury Montego, new full size Cougar, Pantera, and the Torino "Trooper" Police package. For what ever reason it was never released for the Gran Torino Elite.

With very strict emissions laws now in place and emissions compliance testing very expensive, anything produced in just a few hundred would have never been approved by the "Suits". EVERY engine, transmission, and differential combination had to be tested. Very expensive and time consuming for the manufacturer. That's why as the years went by you saw less engine, transmission and rear gear options and things like ram air disappear from the option list altogether.

The 74 Gran Torino Sport was a nice car. I had looked at them but just could not give up my 72 Sport at the time. They ran one more year but only sold a little over 5,000 of them so they were discontinued in 76. Really hated to see the Sport disappear, it arrived wrapped in a beautiful fastback body with big blocks and CJ engines and left with three engines with less horsepower than today's 6 cylinder Mustang!

Was the 429 CJ made in 1974?

 

[timsweet]

As a side note Motorbooks Workshop published the 'Untlimate American V-8 Engine Data Book"

It doesn't list a 351CJ for use in 1974. It does list 351 CJ for 1973 for Mustang an Cougar. It also shows the 429 (not a CJ) for 1973 (for use in the Ford and Mercury and T-bird).

Perhaps that data is wrong or not complete.

 

[secluff]

Tim, it's more like we say tomato they say tomahto!. It's all in the nomenclature. The 65-72 Ford part catalog called the 351 Q a CJ. The 73-79 catalog refereed to the 351 Q as a 351 4bl. All the 71-74 Q engines were Cobra Jet engines. Only the manufactures desire to move away from any reference to performance caused the CJ name to disappear from air cleaner lids and window stickers in early 72. "Big Brother" and the insurance companies were watching all the Big Three since they had been screaming for years about people like us tearing the road up with our Hot Rods!

The last production 429 CJ ended at the close of 71 production. Technically it lived another year as a 72 Police Interceptor. The 71 Interceptor was nothing more than a CJ with a "Police Interceptor" air cleaner decal. The 72 had some changes so as to be compliant with Fords across the board compression cut so all passenger car engines would run on regular fuel. The 429 was available through 1973 as a passenger car engine. In 73 there was also a  "Cruiser" 429 police package for the Full size Ford and Torino but was just a standard LTD engine. The 73 Interceptor engine was now the 460 and was available in Full size and Torino cars. In 1974 the 429 was dropped from the engine lineup and the 460 was now the sole big block engine in the car line.

 

[Boss1Ray]

Tim, it's more like we say tomato they say tomahto!. It's all in the nomenclature. The 65-72 Ford part catalog called the 351 Q a CJ. The 73-79 catalog refereed to the 351 Q as a 351 4bl. All the 71-74 Q engines were Cobra Jet engines. Only the manufactures desire to move away from any reference to performance caused the CJ name to disappear from air cleaner lids and window stickers in early 72. "Big Brother" and the insurance companies were watching all the Big Three since they had been screaming for years about people like us tearing the road up with our Hot Rods!

The last production 429 CJ ended at the close of 71 production. Technically it lived another year as a 72 Police Interceptor. The 71 Interceptor was nothing more than a CJ with a "Police Interceptor" air cleaner decal. The 72 had some changes so as to be compliant with Fords across the board compression cut so all passenger car engines would run on regular fuel. The 429 was available through 1973 as a passenger car engine. In 73 there was also a  "Cruiser" 429 police package for the Full size Ford and Torino but was just a standard LTD engine. The 73 Interceptor engine was now the 460 and was available in Full size and Torino cars. In 1974 the 429 was dropped from the engine lineup and the 460 was now the sole big block engine in the car line.

Steve - this is exactly what I have been told/researched and learned over the years.  Great job on breaking it all down! 

Ray

 

[mjlan]

At risk of going way off of the original topic: Steve- I was under the impression that the big block Police engines did not use CJ/ SCJ D0OE-R heads, they used small port heads with CJ-sized valves and adjustable valve trains. Is this not the case?

It would have been great if there was a 70-71 460 engine built with the big port big valve CJ heads.

 

[secluff]

mjlan, I'm sure Boss1Ray won't mind. He's probably used to watching me run the train off the tracks all the time!

In 1970 the Police Interceptors  were still running the 428. In 71 the 429 was chosen as the new Interceptor engine  for Full size and Torino police cars. The 71 police heads were DOOZ-6049-H (DOOE-R) which is the same head also used for 70-71 CJ and SCJ. In 1972 the Interceptor used D2OZ-6049-A (D2OE-AB) heads which still had the 70-71 size CJ valves but ran the smaller ports. I ran the 72 PI heads on my 72 Gran Torino with a 70-71 CJ short block and all I can tell you is that it was a Monster!! Those are probably the heads you had heard about. They were hydraulic so no valve adjustments were needed. The sole SCJ in our 429 group was a solid lifter engine so he had to adjust his valves.

Not widely known but Ford was working on a 460 Cobra Jet. I read about it years ago but could never find the article later. Ford used a 71 Cyclone as the test car. I was at a new vehicle launch in 1989 when the new Thunderbird Super Coupe and Cougar XR7 were being introduced. Was talking to one of the Engineers there who happened to also be a real devout car guy. He remembered that project and said they had several running test cars. But they lost their funding when when Henry Ford put a stop to all company funded racing and sponsorship programs. That also meant a stop on all present high performance development and  future development  programs for both production and race cars.        

As Maxwell Smart would have said, "We Came That Close"!!