351C oil system mod

[barnett468]

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all clevelands have oiling issues . . the stock ones frequently get buy but the bearings still premayurely wear . . this is proven in warranty repairs from an ex ford mechanic.

ford was aware of the problem and in fact came up with a lifter bushing bore kit to address what they though was the main cause.

after 50 years and maybe 1500 miles, the lifter bores can become worn which makes the problem worse.

if you do the oiling mods, it has been proven that the mods will NOT hurt the engine . . if you do not do any of them, there is a chance the bearings will wear prematurely or even worse.

one of the mods which is simple to do is to use push rods with a .040" hole . . if other mods are done and your lifters have a .060" hole, the restrictor push rods are not needed.

as smart as the people were that designed engines 45 years ago, they would still only go around 140,000 at the most before needing a rebuild . . now if a 5.0 explorer does not go over 200,000, there is something wrong . . of course the synthetic oils may certainlyy be responsibe for part of this but engine design also is.

one of the lifter bore problems is that the oil feed holes are soo large that the lofter basically beats the oil into a foam which reduces power . . the ford lifter bushings were designed to fix this problem, not loose bore problems . . the bushungs are used to fix worn bore probs too now 45 years sand 15,000 mikes or so later.

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[hyena429]

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all clevelands have oiling issues . . the stock ones frequently get buy but the bearings still premayurely wear . . this is proven in warranty repairs from an ex ford mechanic.

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What Ford EX-Mechanic thou ? " not douting your information" .I heard same too, but never see a name or anything..Where is documents that Ford had any issues? Bill Gay and the engineer's who designed this motor say diff.

From George Pence " Who got the information from Bill Gay himself.

As the 351C 4V powered Fords thundered around the banked ovals at 7200 rpm for 500 miles, they did so with complete reliability. They were reliable in spite of their nodular iron cranks instead of steel cranks, in spite of their thin wall block instead of thick bulkheads, in spite of their lack of cross bolting AND in spite of their lack of side oiling. The engineers achieved the 351C 4V's reliability with all those short cuts because they weren't short cuts. Like the wide main bearing caps, the engineers deliberately chose engineered solutions instead of brute force to make the motor reliable.The 351C did not have a reputation for problems in the early years. Through 1973 all the press the 351C 4V received was stellar.<~~~ No bad press till 74 when embargo and smear campain started.

1974 was the first year the 351C received bad press in the magazines. It was the year of the first oil embargo. It was the year that the sbc with its small ports began to dominate the aftermarket parts industry, helped along by a bunch of guys like Vizard & Yunick with vested interests in the little sbc motor. It was also the year Hank The Crank introduced a new crankshaft for the 351C. A magazine writer (numskull) named CJ Baker was a significant source for the body of mis-information that grew up around the 351C 4V.

I have never seen any information " besides from websites that say it backwards and repeat alot of old stuff" Nothing from Ford saying they ever had a oiling issue " Some ex mechanics can say alot of nasty things about a company or motor that was not true... I would like too see some real information about that.." and not just cutt and paste stuff from some motor builder site that just cutt and pasted it from another. like from hot rod mag. " which has been torn apart for being wrong on many levels" BTW C.J. Baker

was a Hot Rod magazine writer.

I was really hard on my car...I did not change the oil on time, i burned the tires and over reved my old 4v too death. lol..My bearings are still like new and do not need to be replaced after 20+ years. " im going to anyways while im in there" but i dont know how old my motor really is, i did not rebuild it, nor do i know when it was done..rings are another matter thou and cam wore out way before anything in the bottom end...i was tuff on this car..was my first car out of highschool. and i seen plenty of other 351's with fine bottom ends with out this mod.

Will it hurt? Dout it.. Is it needed? I would like to see some real proof on that...Runing stock crank, they designed it to oil the mains as well as a 427 side oiler according to Bill.

I got to ask a bunch of old mechanics at our local circle track years ago, One local guy who been racing there for longer than i been alive.. I asked him cause he ran nothing but Ford engines what he thought about the 351 cleveland...He told me they could get many more miles at the time around the track with a 351 cleveland than a 351W..Only reason he stopped using them was the lack of any performance parts in the late 70's and cost.. He said he had no such oiling issues. " now is this really pretty much a aftermarket crank issue?" He used the iron ones too he said...and this was no joke track...Was the fastest Circle track on the West Coast in the hayday.

 

[barnett468]

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all clevelands have oiling issues . . the stock ones frequently get buy but the bearings still premayurely wear . . this is proven in warranty repairs from an ex ford mechanic.

.

What Ford EX-Mechanic thou ? " not douting your information" .I heard same too, but never see a name or anything..Where is documents that Ford had any issues? Bill Gay and the engineer's who designed this motor say diff.

From George Pence " Who got the information from Bill Gay himself.

As the 351C 4V powered Fords thundered around the banked ovals at 7200 rpm for 500 miles, they did so with complete reliability. They were reliable in spite of their nodular iron cranks instead of steel cranks, in spite of their thin wall block instead of thick bulkheads, in spite of their lack of cross bolting AND in spite of their lack of side oiling. The engineers achieved the 351C 4V's reliability with all those short cuts because they weren't short cuts. Like the wide main bearing caps, the engineers deliberately chose engineered solutions instead of brute force to make the motor reliable.The 351C did not have a reputation for problems in the early years. Through 1973 all the press the 351C 4V received was stellar.<~~~ No bad press till 74 when embargo and smear campain started.

1974 was the first year the 351C received bad press in the magazines. It was the year of the first oil embargo. It was the year that the sbc with its small ports began to dominate the aftermarket parts industry, helped along by a bunch of guys like Vizard & Yunick with vested interests in the little sbc motor. It was also the year Hank The Crank introduced a new crankshaft for the 351C. A magazine writer (numskull) named CJ Baker was a significant source for the body of mis-information that grew up around the 351C 4V.

I have never seen any information " besides from websites that say it backwards and repeat alot of old stuff" Nothing from Ford saying they ever had a oiling issue " Some ex mechanics can say alot of nasty things about a company or motor that was not true... I would like too see some real information about that.." and not just cutt and paste stuff from some motor builder site that just cutt and pasted it from another. like from hot rod mag. " which has been torn apart for being wrong on many levels" BTW C.J. Baker

was a Hot Rod magazine writer.

I was really hard on my car...I did not change the oil on time, i burned the tires and over reved my old 4v too death. lol..My bearings are still like new and do not need to be replaced after 20+ years. " im going to anyways while im in there" but i dont know how old my motor really is, i did not rebuild it, nor do i know when it was done..rings are another matter thou and cam wore out way before anything in the bottom end...i was tuff on this car..was my first car out of highschool. and i seen plenty of other 351's with fine bottom ends with out this mod.

Will it hurt? Dout it.. Is it needed? I would like to see some real proof on that...Runing stock crank, they designed it to oil the mains as well as a 427 side oiler according to Bill.

I got to ask a bunch of old mechanics at our local circle track years ago, One local guy who been racing there for longer than i been alive.. I asked him cause he ran nothing but Ford engines what he thought about the 351 cleveland...He told me they could get many more miles at the time around the track with a 351 cleveland than a 351W..Only reason he stopped using them was the lack of any performance parts in the late 70's and cost.. He said he had no such oiling issues. " now is this really pretty much a aftermarket crank issue?" He used the iron ones too he said...and this was no joke track...Was the fastest Circle track on the West Coast in the hayday.

i will try to find it on my computer but i know for a fact some had bearing problems because i had a cleveland in 70 and it developed low oil pressure probs after around 60k miles and i know of others that did also.

i also know what george pence, tim meyer, dan jones. jon kaase and virtually every other expert has posted on the subject.

as i said, the entire point is that it is cheap and easy to just do s couple simple mods to improve the system thereby reducing the potential for oiling probs especially in an engine that might have 150,000 miles on it . . i see no point in debating who said what or who is right, the fact is, the oiling mods will increase oil to the crank and will not hurt anything, so if anyone is building a cleveland, especially a performance cleveland, it simply seems ridiculous to me not to spend maybe $30.00 to $60.00 and a little time to do some of them instead of saying that joe blow said this or joe blow said that etc . . simply protect your investment instead of debating a worthless subject . . who the heck cares who said what . . none of these "experts" will say that increasing oil to the crank is a bad thing so why not do it on an engine that has a bit of controversy on the subject . . plus, why would ford design a lifter bore kit for the cleveland . . do people really think the engineers simply had nothing better to do and were bored . . sure you might get 75 - 100k out of the bearings on some stock clevelands but you might get 150,000 out of them if you do some oil mods so for people to say that their bearings are just fine after maybe 70k miles means absolutely nothing unless they tear their engine out and look at them . . an engine can sound fine and run fine with bearings that are worn and/or scored to some degree so theses people claims are totally worthless because they have no measurements to back them up.

this is similar to high volume oil pumps, why do people put those in engines?

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[hyena429]

So why did mine never have this issue? ever? This is not the first one my family ever owned...Mine ..Stock oil pump, cold start up 80 pounds..warm 55-60...Well over 180kish on engine, still had amazing oil pressure, and no compression by the time 2008 hit....I used my car for a daily driver for a long time" was only one i had as a kid"...I had a big block chev with only 60k and it ate the bottom end... Parts new inside..everything was great...Bearings gone!! and you can believe me or not ..But it is true.lol

And yes we mic'ed my crank and bearings...They are fine.. Good enough to put back in " if i wanted too".. my motor all apart right now. when i move it here next month , i will take a pic of them, everyone can see the magical bottom end mine must of had ..I just wanna know who and some real facts behind it having a issue, Is that a big deal to ask?

According too the engineers and others say this is not needed. and messing with the stock crank and plumbing CAUSED this issue. Pro stock did not used this..and first everyone saying if you build performance engine you better have this...Jack did use high volume oil pumps and restrictors and spun his motors at 9500 rpm.. Oiling external is not nothing new " seen it on a model a" and a old ford y block " but it was other way around" it took oiling and put it up top on the valve train. I'm sure he would of used it if it made his engines last longer " same with Nascar" they wanted as many miles at high rpm's as they could get.

And yes George Pence is where i read most of this issue from. " you edited in the middle of reply..lol"

I understand the thinking behind it..But if you was truely worried when building your motor, wouldn't you just put restrictors and high volume pump, wouldnt that be enough? Motor was desgined to oil very well .Mine did

http://mustangsandmore.com/ubb/351Ctips.html Dan Jones... 351 Basics... - For high rpm work with a solid lifter cam, consider the standard oiling mods (galley restrictors and/or sleeved lifter bushings). For under 6500 rpm with a hydraulic cam, stock displacement oil pump with a higher pressure

relief spring (or shimmed) is okay. High volume pumps increase output at lower rpm where it's not needed, Nothing about needing external oiling.

http://www.network54.com/Forum/119419/search type in External Oil Line on cleveland351.net...Look how many talk bad about it..verse good, and alot of them know the cleveland very well. Most of the expert motor builders even say " unless you spinning at 8,000 rpm , it is probably not needed..But if it makes ya feel better...hmmmm this line has been debated over and over , and without any real end...So i wont keep it going here either..lol

 

[barnett468]

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hi;

"do people really think the engineers simply had nothing better to do and were bored . . sure you might get 75 - 100k out of the bearings on some stock clevelands but you might get 150,000 out of them if you do some oil mods so for people to say that their bearings are just fine after maybe 70k miles means absolutely nothing unless they tear their engine out and look at them . . an engine can sound fine and run fine with bearings that are worn and/or scored to some degree so theses people claims are totally worthless because they have no measurements to back them up."

having an oiling issue does not mean that your engine will blow up in 10 minutes, nor does it mean that every clevo will experience probs from this issue part of it depends on type of use/abuse also . . it simply means that the bearings can wear prematurely in this case . . if you read ALL these guys info including george pence, they all say to run bearing tolerances that are BIGGER than stock . . why in the world would they say to do this if there was not an oiling issue, lol? . . so any of them that say that, then also say that their is no oiling issue have lost all credibility . . i don't' care what their name is.

its easy to see thru things if you read between the lines and not get enamored with the name of the author etc . . again., i see no point in defending the oiling system on a 45 year old engine . . people can do the mods or don't do the mods . it doesn't matter to me.

again, the mods will not hurt it, why not do some of them . . tim meyer even sells oil restrictor bearings so you don't have to drill or tap the block and buy special parts so this mod can be done for FREE because you need new cam bearings in a new build anyway.

imo, any perf build needs chromoly push rods, well its only around $20.00 more for the restrictor type so that mod is dirt cheap if needed.

running the bearings with a little more clearance is free.

running bearings with 1/2, 2/3 or full grooves is only a couple dollars extra . . some say this helps, some say the bearings will wear sooner because of the reduced surface area . . i think the more important thing is to run slightly bigger clearances.

if ine does these mods, a stock oil pump id way more than good enough . . if they rev it to 6k or more then just buy a high pressure spring.

run a jomar or moroso non bypass oil filter so all the oil gets filtered all the time.

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[hyena429]

It can thou cause a issue..external plumbing is just another potential failure point with almost instant damage possible...Mite also cause a dry start .So if not needed..why add something else that mite leak or worse if it is not needed? right?

I will not say anything else...alot of people on 351 cleveland .net have battled to no end, and alot of people will say this mod is no better than snake oil. Dan i bet will even agree unless you pulling 8,000 rpm, this mod is not needed at all...We can agree to dissagree

I got a worn out cleveland i drove all my life...I rodded it...I was hard on it...I did not change the oil on time...The bottom end is perfictly fine!! that shows me with my experiance, that mine had no issue at all oiling...i expected much worse.

 

[barnett468]

i did not say external plumbing . . imo, that's a ridiculous thing to do in a street car but if dine properly it will not ever, ever, leak 100% guaranteed . . i know this for a fact because i just so happen to have worked on motorcycles for many years and also was in charge of the r and department for a big motorcycle mfg where is was a project engineer and fabricator . . also about 10 zillion old english made cars have external oil lines..

if one does sh_tty work, they will get sh_tty results, its that simple.

here is the mod that member MeZapU just did.

heres a 66 jag with external oil lines in the front.

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[hyena429]

i did not say external plumbing . . imo, that's a ridiculous thing to do in a street car but if dine properly it will not ever, ever, leak 100% guaranteed . . i know this for a fact because i just so happen to have worked on motorcycles for many years and also was in charge of the r and department for a big motorcycle mfg where is was a project engineer and fabricator . . also about 10 zillion old english made cars have external oil lines..

if one does sh_tty work, they will get sh_tty results, its that simple.

here is the mod that member MeZapU just did.

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Aww see...i was talking about the start of this thread http://www.ebay.com/itm/250510413754?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649 this kit some people are talked into putting on there cars...I believe a lot of the other mods are awesome !! this one above i have my douts.

 

[barnett468]

Aww see...i was talking about the start of this thread http://www.ebay.com/itm/250510413754?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649 this kit some people are talked into putting on there cars...I believe a lot of the other mods are awesome !! this one above i have my douts.

lol, ok, got ya, yeah, i completely agree that, that kit is unnecessary to say the least.

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[Manu Mach1]

I installed this kit month ago, if it can help for a better lubrification, even if I don't drive often my car in high RPM, I prefere spend a few euros for that.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/250510413754?ssP...1423.l2649