Beginning of the engine rebuild

[73vertproject]

OK. I'm going to stick my big toe in the water and check the temperature, because now that the rear suspension is in the capable hands of the high school auto shop class, I'm beginning the initial stages of an engine rebuild for my 351C 2V. Which basically means collecting information and parts (doing a LOT of comparison shopping online, etc.) and narrowing the possibilities for cam/intake/carb/bore and stroke/all that stuff.

There are many here who have been down that road, and at least one other member heading down there now, so I'm hoping to get a variety of perspectives as I head down there myself.

So, 351C 2V. I'll keep the heads for the low end torque they provide compared to the 351C 4V. Then what? I intend to do as much as I can, with the assistance of the shop teacher who appears to be quite capable, with most of the machining farmed out. I'll mostly be purchasing and assembling, in my mind.

Feel free to question my sanity and the foolhardiness of tackling such a project - first hand experiences are welcome.

My first real question is this: which oil pump should I buy, if the Melling brand is $30.95 and the Clevite is $78.18? Any idea where I might go for this kind of comparison shopping info (ya, Google and I are buddies, but do you know of any special "engine rebuilding" website that includes brands and prices)?

And this is only question number one. :-/

Doc

 

[cobra3073]

Doc,

It has been a long time since I worked with Clevelands however I would like to offer the following:

First of all, if it was me I would approach it from a "system" perspective, not just the oil pump but the COMPLETE oil system that you plan on using. In order to reach that point, you have to make some realistic decision as to what you want from the final build. What RPM do you plan on turning? How much HP?

The Clevelands have a reputation for oiling problems under certain circumstances. Of course, there are well documented "fixes" for the problems but it comes down to "having a plan" relative to what you want to achieve.

Yes, you asked a relative simple question but if one is honest, you really have asked a "BIGGIE." If you are shooting for something a little beyond stock, either pump (without modifications) should be fine. If you are planning on turning the motor to 6 or 7 thousand RPM, then you will need something entirely different. Now we are talking about high volume/high pressure pumps.

When you start modifying, everything is REALLY related. If it was me, I would first decide EXACTLY what performance level I want. I would then get with a cam grinder and honestly tell them what I want to do. They will be able to give you a very good idea as to what works best with the cam they are recommending.

Hope this is not too confusing!

BT

 

[72HCODE]

my approach is different. I've read a ton of books on the subject which in retrospect didn't amount to a hill of beans because i farmed out my engine rebuild.

however: everything starts with the cam. you basically build the engine around it.

you need to really sit down and ask yourself what your plans are.

for me my plans were i want a 100,000+ mile engine. because of that i decided to stick close to stock, well as close as one can in today's environment of not much OEM stuff left and an .40 overbored block. since i've never been to a drag track in my life and don't plan to, and i sit in heavy traffic most of the time, and cruise on the back roads between 40-60mph and i want to have conversations and listen to the radio, it would be as mild a cam as i could find. My engine originally had headers, I ditched them.

Of course that became a fight with my engine builder, in the end because i didn't have the right person working on my engine, i ended up with an engine i didn't really want. It made over 350hp on the dyno but required a massive amount of work to make street-able. I had to de-tune it massively to get something close to what i wanted. but i'm not 100% happy, due to the odd combination of heads my tuning is not where i would like it.

everything starts with what you want, remember you can have a drag car you can go the quarter under 10 at over 110, or you can have a cruiser.

figure out the balance you want first, choose a cam then add what your keeping. all the details with the oil system will follow there are a lot of tricks to beefing up a clevelands oil system just by drilling new ports in the oil gallerys or you can go aftermarket.

I was worried about all the rumors in regards to clevelands in that respect, however i learned that the clevelands oil issues are not a big deal unless your talking really high horse power, same with a 2 verse 4 bolt main, the cleveland is a very stout engine in either configuration.

if your sticking with the 2v heads which i think is good, then you have maybe one or 2 intakes to choose from either a single or dual plane. i recommend dual.

then the exhaust if you want performance you'll get something like hooker headers or you can just stick with the stock 2v which retain the heat in the cylinders much better, and just convert to a dual 2.5 or 2.25" exhaust with a H pipe. assuming you have a single exhaust now. if you need to convert to duel then you would want to change out or cut your rear valance to a dual cutout.

 

[72fastback]

I agree with the cobra and 72hcode tell us what you want to achieve and then we will be able to give you some sound information.I just had my engine rebuilt and unlike 72 I plan on taking it to the track next summer.My 4v has 435 hp and 400 max torque.I would gladly tell you everything that I have but if that is not the route you are looking for then there is no point.And again unlike 72hcode my engine is loud and it's just the way I like it hahaha

 

[73vertproject]

Thanks, guys. That makes a lot of sense to design everything around the cam.

Here's the scenario: When I drive around town, I turn a lot of heads with the racing stripes on the hood, especially with the kids. They ask me to rev the motor, and when I step on it, it farts and wheezes worse than my Grandpa used to.

So what I want is a motor that will live up to its looks. I might run it in the street drags they have here two nights during the summer, I might want to drive it 150 miles to a car show in Reno, but mostly it's an ego thing - I want to be able to do a few burnouts around town to impress the kids.

Probably sounds like a foolish way to spend $5,000, but that's what I'd like to do.

I'll listen to any and all advice you're willing to offer, and I'll probably start a blog, so that I don't take up so much space here in the Tech Forum.

Now, let's talk cams, shall we?

Thanks for your offers of help and encouragement!

Doc

 

[jorgem2]

Do some searching here about clevelands:

http://www.network54.com/Forum/119419/

 

[cobra3073]

Doc,

Based on your last post, it sounds like you want something between 72HCODE and 72FASTBACK approach to their respective builds.

Again, I believe your best approach is to contact a good cam grinder, (perhaps Competition Cams - 1 800 999 0853) and tell them exactly what you put in your post above. The key is to be BRUTALLY HONEST with what you think you want as they can recommend (or build) a cam (and kit) to meet your stated needs.

I warn you though, it is VERY easy to go off the deep end. I started off 37 years ago building a relative mild (in retrospect) 441 HP 357CI Cleveland for my '73 Mach I. Since that time I have built progressively more radical motors to reside in the engine bay, along with mandatory updates to other parts of the car in order to "handle" the increased power. I am now building a 750 - 800 HP 545 big block ford. Be forewarned - - it can become disheartening when you have multiple goals such as wanting to drive 150 miles (without issues) and having to back up your car's graphics against one of the "heavy" hitters.

Yes, 72HCODE and 72FASTBACK got it RIGHT!! It REALLY, REALLY is about compromise. It is important to know what you want and build to what you can live with the majority of the time.

Of course, if you are like me, getting there is part of the enjoyment - - you can always do it again!

BT

 

[73vertproject]

Thanks for the link. I just spent 10 minutes poking around there and found the answers to about 400 questions I had.

Much appreciated, Jorge!

Doc

 

[73vertproject]

OK, here we go (again). As I head down the road, I'll be better able to determine what I can live with, and what I can live without. Do I want to be able to drive down the highway a couple hundred miles, or do I want to be a contending force at the street drags (legal ones during the summer)? I should be able to figure out which one I want more as continue down this rebuilding journey.

I found a neat software program that let's you choose a cam based on your answers to a few questions like "How much cam are you willing to put up with? a. I want it to feel llike my grandpa's Olds '98. b. I want better gas mileage and a bit more torque. c. Choppy idle and burn rubber as needed. d. As much cam as I can get without spilling my beverage while idling.

Or something along those lines. Then, we must answer some basic questions that have been asked since the beginning of time (or at least, since I began reading hot rod magazines nearly 40 years ago. Problem is, I can't remember the answers now. Please advise as you are able:

1. Solid or hydraulic lifters (I know, that's an oldie but a goodie)? I don't want to adjust anything, anytime, if it's not absolutely necessary. Or maybe hydraulic-roller lifters? There are 4 cams recommended with hydraulic lifters, 1 with solid lifters, and 1 with hydraulic-roller lifters. Price is definitely an issue here, but not necessarily a deal breaker.

2. What RPM range? Not building it for the track, so am I looking at 1200 - 5200 (212 - 218 @.050), or 2000 to 6000 (230 - 230 @ .050), or somewhere in between (1400 - 5600 RPM) (218 - 224 @.050)?

3. They come with descriptions like, "Strong torque, excellent response. Good mid-range, stock converter, 3.23 gears." That's for the last cam above. I understand everything but "stock converter" and "3.23 gears". I plan on swapping some gears in the differential anyway, at some point, so how does this compare to what's in my 9" right now?

Thanks for your time in answering Horsepower for First Graders questions. I appreciate it!

Doc

 

[droptop73]

Doc,

What they mean by stock converter is it works ok with the torque converter the car came with. As far as the gears go the cam should be used in a car with at least a 3.23:1 gear in the differential. This should be a streetable cam with a smooth idle. For good street manners the 212 - 218 duration cam should be a good choice using the 2v heads. What are the lift and lobe separation numbers? The lobe separation will determine idle quality (108 - 110 will give a "choppy" idle and lack some bottom end power 112 - 114 will give a smooth idle and more torque) A hydraulic roller cam is a good choice if you can swing it. Check with comp cams about a reduced base circle cam to use with factory Ford roller lifters. (Not 1st grade info I know )

It really is a balance between cam heads and intake. While the correct cam is critical, how it works with the heads and intake is the most important. Choose a cam that works in the same RPM range (mostly) as your intake and heads. One cam will work better with 4v heads and another will work better with 2v heads. It all has to do with flow velocities and port shape,valve angles etc.

My current combination is a mild Isky RV cam (.500 lift 250*advertised duration, 112* lobe separation), an Edelbrock performer intake with a 650 cfm Holley, the heads are 2v open chamber castings with a mild cleanup in the ports, mostly valve bowl work to help low lift flow. The block is a standard bore with flat top pistons. I am mostly satisfied with the performance. The rings did not seal well and it has too much blow by, but thats a different story for another time.

 

[73vertproject]

Doc,

What they mean by stock converter is it works ok with the torque converter the car came with. As far as the gears go the cam should be used in a car with at least a 3.23:1 gear in the differential. This should be a streetable cam with a smooth idle. For good street manners the 212 - 218 duration cam should be a good choice using the 2v heads. What are the lift and lobe separation numbers? The lobe separation will determine idle quality (108 - 110 will give a "choppy" idle and lack some bottom end power 112 - 114 will give a smooth idle and more torque) A hydraulic roller cam is a good choice if you can swing it. Check with comp cams about a reduced base circle cam to use with factory Ford roller lifters. (Not 1st grade info I know )

It really is a balance between cam heads and intake. While the correct cam is critical, how it works with the heads and intake is the most important. Choose a cam that works in the same RPM range (mostly) as your intake and heads. One cam will work better with 4v heads and another will work better with 2v heads. It all has to do with flow velocities and port shape,valve angles etc.

My current combination is a mild Isky RV cam (.500 lift 250*advertised duration, 112* lobe separation), an Edelbrock performer intake with a 650 cfm Holley, the heads are 2v open chamber castings with a mild cleanup in the ports, mostly valve bowl work to help low lift flow. The block is a standard bore with flat top pistons. I am mostly satisfied with the performance. The rings did not seal well and it has too much blow by, but thats a different story for another time.

Thanks, Jeff. That adds a lot to what I am learning about cams. 2V heads seem to be rarely discussed in internet engine rebuilds, but I know I've read more than once that they have higher low end torque than the 4V heads, which seem to be the norm for strip builds.

The valve lift is 0.515 and 0.541, and the seat-to-seat duration 275.0 and 285.0. I know that much of this is driver preference, but the more I know about cams, the better position I am in to decide what might work best for me. Thanks for your input!

Doc

 

[droptop73]

The 2v heads are a good choice for a street engine. The 4v ports are too big for even an all out race application with a stock bore and stroke. The 4v ports on my friends race cleveland are filled by 25 - 30%.

What is the lobe separation angle on the cam you are looking at?

One thing to consider with cam selection is if the engine will generate enough vacuum to operate power brakes.

 

[73vertproject]

Again, thanks, Jeff. They don't provide a "lobe separation angle" per se. The lobe centerline is 110.0 and the intake centerline is 106.0 if that helps.

What application are you using? Street/strip, daily driver, or something else? Your cam is more radical than the one I'm describing, but your build sounds more like a daily driver with occasional strip use. Am I even close?

What variables am I looking at that would impact the engine's ability to provide enough vacuum for the brakes? I hadn't even considered that aspect. Dang... :huh:

Doc

 

[droptop73]

Doc, Mine is completely street driven,if I break it I do not get to play with it, the idle is fairly smooth. With 110* lobe centerline it will have a choppier idle than mine and possibly less vacuum. Is this a hydraulic roller? hydraulic flat tappet?

Best bet is to check with the cam manufacturer about how much vacuum the application should produce. The cam's overlap (when both the intake and exhaust are open) has an effect on engine vacuum.

 

[cobra3073]

Doc,

Again, Jeff is "on the money."

When you speak with the cam Specialist, they should inquire as to the specifications of your motor to include what type brakes, transmission, rear end, how you want to use the vehicle, etc. Actually, most of the "good" one have a sheet to be filled out with this information.

It is NICE to know about duration, overlap, lift, hydraulic vs solid vs roller but to be honest, the cam folks (the good ones) will let you know what they have or recommend for your application. Quite frankly, I have found that the specifications (numbers) for one company may give you an entirely different "acting" cam from another company with the same specifications. I look into that stuff but in the end, I have always gone with the cam grinder's recommendation.

The "key" is to be BRUTALLY honest with the cam grinder in what you have and what you want the car to do. Given honest information, the cam grinder can recommend or grind you a cam that will give you what you need - - that is what they do.

Hope this helps.

BT

 

[73vertproject]

Again, thanks guys. I've spent the past few days learning as much about cams as I can, and I contacted Comp Cams with all my info.

I'm thinking something like a [email protected] and 110* lobe separation or something along those lines. I'll let you know what they say.

Doc

 

[73vertproject]

Had to resurrect this dinosaur because of all the great advice I got before my rebuild. I listened and learned, and if you saw my vids a few days ago, it would be well worth your time to read what what written here when this site was only a couple months old. Bottom line: there are some knowledgeable people here, and you just have to be honest with yourself.

Here's my chance to repost the "post-build" video. Again, if you're rebuilding your engine, pay attention to this original thread and you just may experience the videos in this thread: http://www.7173mustangs.com/thread-celebrating-the-new-73vertproject

 

[JimNiki]

hi mate. My big cam has forced me to install a vacuum tank. Not getting more than 10 at idle. If you ever plan on factory ram air, keep manifold height in mind.