How to define oil level with custom pan/dipstick?

[Fabrice]

While my 429 engine is still open, I'd like to verify or redefine the ideal oil level for it.

I have an oil pan that looks to be original for the 2/3 top part, but has been modified, looks like a mix of a perf after market one with the original. Its deeper by +- 2 inches and got an oil splash screen added so all stays at pickup level. I also have a dipstick, looks like an original that has been chromed. For same price its some repop, I don't know.

I have no idea how much oil must go into it, but from the look of the added metal, I'd say at least 1.5 to 2 quart extra will go in there. 

I'd like to know and not guess.

Now that I have full access, I'd like to define/check the low and full on the stick before I close the engine.

The mouth of the pickup when emerged is 22cm from engine oil pan surface. So in that regard, I know the low is slightly higher than this.

But how to define the upper level? Up to where is the oil supposed to be when pan is said "full"?

 

[Hemikiller]

First, your pan to pickup clearance should be right about 3/8" or 10mm ---- 22mm is way too much.

Canton makes a 10" deep sump for the 429/460 and it's rated at 8 quarts with the filter.

https://www.cantonracingproducts.com/products/15-750-oil-pan-big-block-ford-429-460-deep-front-sump-street-pan.html#product-description

Normal procedure for setting the oil level on the dipstick is to fill the pan to rated capacity, start the engine to fill the system. Shut it off and let it drain back for a minute or so. Pull dipstick, wipe, cycle the stick again, and mark the stick where the oil is with a file.

FWIW, the deep pans are not popular anymore for a good reason, they have ground clearance issues. You might be better served with a "T" style pan that won't be the lowest part of the car.

 

[Fabrice]

First, your pan to pickup clearance should be right about 3/8" or 10mm ---- 22mm is way too much.

Canton makes a 10" deep sump for the 429/460 and it's rated at 8 quarts with the filter.

https://www.cantonracingproducts.com/products/15-750-oil-pan-big-block-ford-429-460-deep-front-sump-street-pan.html#product-description

Normal procedure for setting the oil level on the dipstick is to fill the pan to rated capacity, start the engine to fill the system. Shut it off and let it drain back for a minute or so. Pull dipstick, wipe, cycle the stick again, and mark the stick where the oil is with a file.

FWIW, the deep pans are not popular anymore for a good reason, they have ground clearance issues. You might be better served with a "T" style pan that won't be the lowest part of the car.

[clearance should be right about 3/8" or 10mm ---- 22mm is way too much]

I think there is a confusion here. Would be impossible.

Here a quick and dirty drawing... 



I'm after the green line (oil level when full).

[Normal procedure for setting the oil level on the dipstick is to fill the pan to rated capacity,]

Yes when the capacity is known, thats one of the missing params.

 

[Carolina_Mountain_Mustangs]

If your dip stick and dip stick tube is correct length the pan has no bearing on fill level. I cannot give you that I do not have a 429 car. You fill until it is at the correct height on the stick. Yes you need to start and get it all filled and then check and bring to correct level. Lots of oil not needed on a street engine. If racing a dry sump is better keeps the oil away from the crank that makes it foam. Should have a windage tray to help with crank slapping oil also.

A deeper pan without longer pickup really does not add anything that helps your engine.

A really high volume oil pump can sometimes fill up the heads / valve covers with oil. That is why you see the tall tubes on some of the racing engines to keep from throwing out oil all over the engine. Clear the oil drain back holes on the ends of the head to make that better.

If you are not racing go back like original it worked.

 

[Fabrice]

If your dip stick and dip stick tube is correct length the pan has no bearing on fill level. I cannot give you that I do not have a 429 car. You fill until it is at the correct height on the stick. Yes you need to start and get it all filled and then check and bring to correct level. Lots of oil not needed on a street engine. If racing a dry sump is better keeps the oil away from the crank that makes it foam. Should have a windage tray to help with crank slapping oil also.

A deeper pan without longer pickup really does not add anything that helps your engine.

A really high volume oil pump can sometimes fill up the heads / valve covers with oil. That is why you see the tall tubes on some of the racing engines to keep from throwing out oil all over the engine. Clear the oil drain back holes on the ends of the head to make that better.

If you are not racing go back like original it worked.

[You fill until it is at the correct height on the stick]

because I don't know if its the right one, its one of the params that I want to define/verify.

The pump is an high volume and the pickup is bits deeper than the original one. Fits nicely.

[should have a windage tray to help with crank slapping oil also.]

They is one in it.

[if you are not racing go back like original it worked.]

As said its the original one and its been modified.

A nice alternative like a Milodon would be nice for sure, but at more than 1k euros once here to replace a pan that is fine is bit silly.

I can't believe there is no infos somewhere on how high the oil level is supposed to be...

 

[Hemikiller]

Fabrice-

My mistake on the first post - I'm not used to using cm as a unit of measurement. I immediately went to mm. My post is about clearance from the pickup to the bottom of the sump.

Stock 429/460 front sump pan was about 8 1/2" deep. How deep is your current pan? What are the dimensions of the sump that was added on - side to side and front to back? I can calculate the volume from that.

Do you have a pic? It might help me identify who made the pan.

 

[Don C]

Like Hemi said, best procedure is to use the correct dipstick and tube, put 6 quarts of oil in it, start and idle engine a few minutes, let set long enough for oil to drain into pan, add oil until it's on the full line on the dipstick, the total quantity you put in is your capacity. I don't ever remember seeing a specification for the height of the oil level. I'm sure Ford engineers knew it, but they didn't share it with the rest of us.

If you have the correct dipstick and tube, and before installing the pan, insert the dipstick into the tube and measure the distance from the full line on the dipstick to the bottom of the block. That will give you the distance to measure down on the oil pan.

 

[Vicus]

Fabrice 

whether your new custom made oil pan is deeper or wider than the original one, it does not have any impact to the full or add level of your dip stick. You just have to fill in more oil. 

Cheers Frank

 

[Fabrice]

start and idle engine a few minutes

ahaha yeah, let me dream walk to the garage.. thing is there are months, prolly years that will pass before I can do this

 My mistake on the first post - I'm not used to using cm as a unit of measurement. I immediately went to mm. 

I was fighting with torque conversions this weekend, so I really get you

Some pict of it during its restoration here.

https://www.7173mustangs.com/showthread.php?tid=31549&page=2

Meanwhile found on Milodon site infos that confirmed my measurements (using original pump+pickup) at 8.6 inch / 22 cm

This info is crucial to make oil pans, so there must be a manufacturer that knows it... and as its not some sensitive info, I just need find someone that actually know what the numbers are.

Of course If someone would have an original dipstick, and could give me the distance from it on the tube, and give me the distance to the mark "full", I could also define where the level should aproximatly be, and compare mine to see if its fairly same or totally off. As the pan is now out, I could once I know, fill it to that line and know how much oil goes into it.

 

[Hemikiller]

Fabrice - here's the dipstick and tube info from the MPC.



The pan you have looks to simply be a modified 429CJ pan. This was a pretty common modification back in the early days. Slice the bottom off and add a band of metal to increase the depth of the pan. There were very few oil pan companies back then, so much of it was home brew. Even then, the oil pan companies were producing stuff like this anyway.

The reason to increase the depth of the pan was *not* to increase the capacity, but to get the oil further away from the rotating assembly to reduce windage losses, and the vertical "wall" in the back helped keep oil in the sump during hard acceleration, versus the slope of the stock pan.

As far as oil capacity, use the factory fill, which depends upon whether or not yours has an oil cooler.

If you want to use the extra volume in the pan for more oil capacity, measure the sump length x width x height. There are 58 cubic inches per quart. Add that amount to the factory fill and you should be spot on.

 

[73pony]

Here is my concern with that particular oil pan. It was extended straight down, thus reducing ground clearance. Looking at the before photo in the aforementioned thread it appears that the oil pan had bottomed out multiple times due to the reduced ground clearance. I would suggest a different pan, either a stock, or aftermarket. I would hate to see it bottom out on you at some point on a rock or sharp object and puncture the pan letting your oil drain out while driving the car. Just my opinion, but given the time that you are putting into the restoration and the high quality of workmanship on such a rare car it would be a tragedy of something like that happened.

 

[Fabrice]

Here is my concern with that particular oil pan. It was extended straight down, thus reducing ground clearance. Looking at the before photo in the aforementioned thread it appears that the oil pan had bottomed out multiple times due to the reduced ground clearance. I would suggest a different pan, either a stock, or aftermarket. I would hate to see it bottom out on you at some point on a rock or sharp object and puncture the pan letting your oil drain out while driving the car. Just my opinion, but given the time that you are putting into the restoration and the high quality of workmanship on such a rare car it would be a tragedy of something like that happened.

No, it did not, tho, its exactly what I thought first when I saw it. It was stored with weight on and in it, parts (not me) and was moved around on the floor. There is also a welding that was done to fit a new purge bolt lower and some enthousiastic hamering took place, which flatened the bottom a bit. Since then, I've checked it, and welded it here and there. It's not warped either and sits flat on the block.

I live in holland and they have here this madness of adding bumps on every roads. In my street alone, I got 5 of these. Crazy annoying. So I'm totally aware of the danger and I'm used to drive very slowly on these. Even my t-bird would touch if I drive bit too fast on these. My 73 also has a similar Moroso deep pan.

1k euros for a new one is out of question. Dang, I should have recut/re-weld it when I've restored it. mmm, may be I should redo it.

 

[Fabrice]

Fabrice - here's the dipstick and tube info from the MPC.



The pan you have looks to simply be a modified 429CJ pan. This was a pretty common modification back in the early days. Slice the bottom off and add a band of metal to increase the depth of the pan. There were very few oil pan companies back then, so much of it was home brew. Even then, the oil pan companies were producing stuff like this anyway.

The reason to increase the depth of the pan was *not* to increase the capacity, but to get the oil further away from the rotating assembly to reduce windage losses, and the vertical "wall" in the back helped keep oil in the sump during hard acceleration, versus the slope of the stock pan.

As far as oil capacity, use the factory fill, which depends upon whether or not yours has an oil cooler.

If you want to use the extra volume in the pan for more oil capacity, measure the sump length x width x height. There are 58 cubic inches per quart. Add that amount to the factory fill and you should be spot on.

You have that info in metrics too?

ahaha kiddin

Yes the car is some kind of "era correct modified car"

The car will never be pushed/raced, so I don't worry much. Why I tripple check everything is that this very engine ran after a rebuild <500km and a cam lobe went south. All I saw makes me think the break-in period was kind of skipped or wrong oil was used. But now for each and every part I put back on, I make sure it's not for another reason. As oil played a role, being sure of the level and not blindly trust a stupid stick that can be for another engine for all I know, is what I try to eliminate.

That's not the number I was after but this one will do just fine! Thank you HemiKiller!

 

[secluff]

Fabrice, you have already received some great info from Hemikiller and DonC. Since you are in the position of not being able to hop in your car and run down to the local speed shop or salvage yard, a solution that involves keeping you current pan I'm sure you would welcome. (And to save 1K Euros) Do you see a Ford engineering number on the dipstick? The original dipstick is DOOZ-6750-A (ID# DOOE-A) There was a replacement dipstick DOOZ-6750-B (ID# DOOE-B). Ford revised the oil capacity's on the 428 CJ/SCJ, 429 CJ/SCJ and Boss 302's.  Ford knew these engines were getting flogged within an inch of their lives and the flow of oil drain back was beginning to become a problem. The warranty claims on blown engines with bottom damage was proving that out. Ford released a bulletin to increase the oil fill to 7 quarts WITH filter and new dipsticks calibrated to reflect the new requirement. Since your car is a 71 it should already have the "New" dipstick. I installed a 70 SCJ oil cooler on my 72 Gran Torino Sport with a crossbred 429 CJ/Police Interceptor. From then on I had to run 8 quarts in that set up but had the chrome handle DOOZ-6750-B revised dipstick so the oil level always showed correctly. I tried to kill my car every time I took it out and never had a oil related problem with it. Like David posted, unless your are auto crossing, drag racing , or just abusing  your engine , your pan with 7 quarts should work for you. Just check where it shows on the dipstick vs the factory fill lines. If you are uncomfortable where the oil level is with 7 quarts, you could always add the 8th quart. The 8th quart on mine it what it took to fill the the oil cooler and the supply and return hoses.

Hope this has helped some and not added to the confusion!

 

[Fabrice]

[The original dipstick is DOOZ-6750-A (ID# DOOE-A) There was a replacement dipstick DOOZ-6750-B (ID# DOOE-B).]....

Fabrice - here's the dipstick and tube info from the MPC. 

The pan you have looks to simply be a modified 429CJ pan. 

K, so I went looking for that dipstick, got 2 and one was not having a serial at all...

The serial seems to correspond to the replacement serial, tho, its clearly a E and not a Z.

could be another one.. but the measurement does fit HemiKiller's doc.

15,76 inch  = 40 cm        --> add 1

16,23 inch  = 41,22 cm    --> add 2

Where the doc says "top of the shield", looks like it counts passed after the little curve of it.

so if I subtract the small diff (in orange) to the green, the graduation is confirmed to be the right dipstick.

Perfect match.

So looks like I have the right one and that the chrome is original too vs painted, 

As the base of the pan is clearly original and HemiKiller also recognise an original modified pan

I do not have to worry or look further for the level. I'm good. E or Z

Thanks again guys!

edit: saw that you provided the id as well, and its E

 

[secluff]

Fabrice, I meant to PM you earlier,but am way behind a lot of things as I try to get my house back in order after almost two weeks of company.

Ford never cast, molded or stamped the actual part number on any part. Part numbers were on the part box, or a tape or tag on the actual part. What you see on the part is a engineering ID number assigned by the group that was responsible for it's design and whether it was released as a service part. So the DOOE-B is the  engineering number for the correct DOOZ-6750-B service (and bulletin) part.

As for finding the spec's for the distance Ford wanted from the the pan flange to the oil when filled to the proper level, don't hold your breath. As Don C suggested, it did exist but was not made available to us commoners. When these cars were built every single part no matter if a screw or body panel had a design blue print. Same for the oil level on the engines. Specifications were made and decisions were then made on what oil pan, dip stick and quantity oil were needed to meet what the engineers wanted. At this time some 40+ years later finding the people that would be familiar with them and if the paper even exists would be beyond impossible. I have a feeling as Ford transitioned to computers over the past several decades that the blueprints for cars, chassis and engines that are no longer in production got trashed.  

I would fill the pan with six qts (5.6 liter) of water to see if the level looks close to what you want.

Just remember when it comes time to "Button" your engine up and to fill with oil use **SEVEN** quarts (6.6 liters) with filter. That was the new revised spec's Ford wanted with your engine without an oil cooler.     [emoji2]