New 393C running, Won't Rev Beyond ~3500 RPM

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Another idea... to troubleshoot you may want to find a way of controlling timing mechanically with the good old distributor. If it still doesnt work then its fuel if its fixed then was timing.

1971 M-code Mach 1

 
No carb or distributor to use on the Cleveland. I've run everything from 20 to 44 degrees of total timing so far. I'll play with fuel if I can break away from work today. The only variable in this equation is the long block. Everything else had several months of solid street time and only had to be unbolted and bolted back on, but it needs to be checked out before I can progress[/align].

 
No carb or distributor to use on the Cleveland. I've run everything from 20 to 44 degrees of total timing so far.
What happened?

Controlled timing was 34 degrees at 2000 RPM. Locked out timing (including vacuum advance) from the electronics and had 15 BTDC on the balancer. Held RPM above 2000 and advanced to 19 or so BTDC, RPM increased and engine was smooth. Increased again to ~23 BTDC with the same results. Shut down after a bit and pulled plugs.
Ok, ater trying to interpret your comments, my guess is that you are saying the following.

you do not have any type of vacuum advance and the advance is controlled by an electronic box.

your initial timing is 15

you have 34 at 2000 rpm using the electronic timing controller.

total timing added by computer is 19 because 15 + 19 = 34

with the timing controller disconnected, you have the following:

timing somewhere above 2000 is less than 19 which is way too low

you advanced the timing to 19 while you maintained that rpm and the rpm increased and the engine still ran smooth

you then increased the timing to around 23 and the rpm increased and it still ram smooth.

you did not mention how it idled or started with the additional timing but i didn't ask you that.

you did not mention if you drove it and if it pinged when you did.

if all the above is correct, your timing is way too low in the locked out position but you dont run it locked out .

since you have a timing control, i would try a total of around 22 at 2000 rpm and 34 at around 2800 rpm if that is possible.

the 34 at 2000 rpm you have using the computer is way high.

i would also limit the total timing to 34.

after the timing is reset, i would do the same test again but try advancing it at idle also . 15 sounds about right but every engine is different and i just did an engine that idles best at 22.

.

 
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What happened?
It seemed a bit weak at 20 degrees and no different between 34 and 44 degrees.

Snip...

you did not mention how it idled or started with the additional timing but i didn't ask you that.

you did not mention if you drove it and if it pinged when you did.

if all the above is correct, your timing is way too low in the locked out position but you dont run it locked out .

since you have a timing control, i would try a total of around 22 at 2000 rpm and 34 at around 2800 rpm if that is possible.

the 34 at 2000 rpm you have using the computer is way high.

i would also limit the total timing to 34.

after the timing is reset, i would do the same test again but try advancing it at idle also . 15 sounds about right but every engine is different and i just did an engine that idles best at 22.
You're understanding my computer/timing constraints well. The engine is set at 15 BTDC for #1 and the adjustable rotor in the distributor is set 15 retarded. The rest is done by the FI based on user settings. It starts and idles based on those settings.

There has been no pinging, even now that I'm running 50/50 101 and 91 octane.

Fuel pressure is rock solid on the gauge and handheld.

I've set idle timing at 16 and total at 34, all in at 2500 RPM. AF targets for idle and cruise are both now 13.0 (running at 12.8ish).After resetting things manually for the IAC, it starts and idles nicely at 16 degrees and has no hot start issues.

The engine's near refusal to rev from 3500-4500 is now just less power than I would expect of the cam coming into its power band, but the rumbling and lack of increase in RPM doesn't rear it's head. It does smell a bit like fuel at that point, though. I haven't messed with power valve and accelerator pump settings yet, but it seems that I'm moving in the right direction and more tuning is in order. Thank you!

I think the headers are bumping a couple spots at idle in gear. Clearance is tight, but damn.

 
ok, did you increase the fuel?

if so, by how much?

did you increase fuel for wot also?

you really need to test it in the 12.5 afr range as i suggested.

does it still stop revving at 3500 rpm or will it rev to 6000 rpm?

do you have a tach?

what is your trans

what is your gear ratio?

if you increased the fuel and have more than 10 miles on the new setting, can you post a photo of the two front plugs again.

you should smell gas with that massive cam.

another easy way to jet it is to richen it up until the porcelain on the plugs is almost black, then reduce afr by 1.5.

.

 
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ok, did you increase the fuel?

if so, by how much?

did you increase fuel for wot also?

you really need to test it in the 12.5 afr range as i suggested.

does it still stop revving at 3500 rpm or will it rev to 6000 rpm?

do you have a tach?

what is your trans

what is your gear ratio?

if you increased the fuel and have more than 10 miles on the new setting, can you post a photo of the two front plugs again.

you should smell gas with that massive cam.

another easy way to jet it is to richen it up until the porcelain on the plugs is almost black, then reduce afr by 1.5.

.
I increased the fuel from 14.0 to 13.0 and I'll add some more as I play with it. 12.5 is the next step.

The engine is a bit much to 3500 RPM, which is great, but it was falling off heavily before 4000. Now it will rev to over 5000 (as far as I've taken it), but power is lackluster. This is still better than the last run when it almost wouldn't reach 4000 RPM at any throttle position.

I have a tach and the handheld provides RPM, as well.

Transmission is a PA Super Comp C4 with PA 10" converter which flashes around 3500 RPM. Gear ratio is 4.56 in a Detroit locker, a legacy item from long ago when chasing 60 foot times.

I only get the fuel smell between 3500 and 4500 RPM on the street. I'll continue adding fuel and adjusting timing throughout the week, getting some spark plug data along the way. I appreciate the help. It's already produced some results.

 
Could you possibly have a pair of plug wires swapped?
This is like the question about remembering to set the FI to recognize 393 cubic inches, which is pertinent. I checked and the plug wires are good. I checked out all the other connections, too. It runs too damn well at idle and low RPM to have a couple cylinders missing, though.

 
I do not believe you are having valve float a 3500 RPM. My 393 has a very similar cam and an 850DP and screams up to nearly 8000 rpm before the valves float. Something significant is going on. Any chance you are running two fuel filters or one is installed backwards?

 
ok, did you increase the fuel?

if so, by how much?

did you increase fuel for wot also?

you really need to test it in the 12.5 afr range as i suggested.

does it still stop revving at 3500 rpm or will it rev to 6000 rpm?

do you have a tach?

what is your trans

what is your gear ratio?

if you increased the fuel and have more than 10 miles on the new setting, can you post a photo of the two front plugs again.

you should smell gas with that massive cam.

another easy way to jet it is to richen it up until the porcelain on the plugs is almost black, then reduce afr by 1.5.

.
I increased the fuel from 14.0 to 13.0 and I'll add some more as I play with it. 12.5 is the next step.

The engine is a bit much to 3500 RPM, which is great, but it was falling off heavily before 4000. Now it will rev to over 5000 (as far as I've taken it), but power is lackluster. This is still better than the last run when it almost wouldn't reach 4000 RPM at any throttle position.

I have a tach and the handheld provides RPM, as well.

Transmission is a PA Super Comp C4 with PA 10" converter which flashes around 3500 RPM. Gear ratio is 4.56 in a Detroit locker, a legacy item from long ago when chasing 60 foot times.

I only get the fuel smell between 3500 and 4500 RPM on the street. I'll continue adding fuel and adjusting timing throughout the week, getting some spark plug data along the way. I appreciate the help. It's already produced some results.
ok, progress, xlnt .

sounds like it was definitely way to lean as your plugs indicated . spark plugs never, ever, lie . this is why you can never rely totally on the afr alone . what you do is make it run right and get a light to medium color on the spark plugs and the afr will end up wherever it will end up . i have seen people try to tune by using the "ideal' afr countless times, and every singly time it dd what your car is doing, it was way too lean, but they spent weeks chasing the problem because they refused to believe it was too lean because their afr gauge said it was "perfect" . inexperienced people dont realize that the afr is only a guide and that actual plug color and performance are the most important things . i actually never use an afr gauge for that exact reason and i have been tuning engines for 40 years and they all ran perfect when i was done.

if it was me, i would try 12.5 at cruise as i initially suggested and 11 at wot now . going in tiny .5 increments will simply take forever.

i also think you have a little too much timing to be safe and might set it to be 35 at around 2800, but i do think it is pretty close and that any small change will not make a seat of the pants improvement.

another thing i would do is take the compression of the front cylinder on each side and pray that it is at least 160 . you need to prop the throttle part way open to do this.

 
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I do not believe you are having valve float a 3500 RPM. My 393 has a very similar cam and an 850DP and screams up to nearly 8000 rpm before the valves float. Something significant is going on. Any chance you are running two fuel filters or one is installed backwards?
I didn't change a thing from the old engine, which ran great for several months with the same fuel system. One filter is inline ahead of the pump, another coming into the throttle body. Fuel pressure isn't dropping from 65 PSI at any point, either. The fuel and timing changes so far have produced results (from virtually no acceleration or RPM increase beyond 4000 to just lacking power), but it really doesn't seem to be "there" at this point, especially where the engine should be making its power.

 
I do not believe you are having valve float a 3500 RPM. My 393 has a very similar cam and an 850DP and screams up to nearly 8000 rpm before the valves float. Something significant is going on. Any chance you are running two fuel filters or one is installed backwards?
I didn't change a thing from the old engine, which ran great for several months with the same fuel system. One filter is inline ahead of the pump, another coming into the throttle body. Fuel pressure isn't dropping from 65 PSI at any point, either. The fuel and timing changes so far have produced results (from virtually no acceleration or RPM increase beyond 4000 to just lacking power), but it really doesn't seem to be "there" at this point, especially where the engine should be making its power.
this is also a sign of having a cam advanced too far like it is one tooth off but that seems unlikely because that would be a lot.

.

 
I do not believe you are having valve float a 3500 RPM. My 393 has a very similar cam and an 850DP and screams up to nearly 8000 rpm before the valves float. Something significant is going on. Any chance you are running two fuel filters or one is installed backwards?
I didn't change a thing from the old engine, which ran great for several months with the same fuel system. One filter is inline ahead of the pump, another coming into the throttle body. Fuel pressure isn't dropping from 65 PSI at any point, either. The fuel and timing changes so far have produced results (from virtually no acceleration or RPM increase beyond 4000 to just lacking power), but it really doesn't seem to be "there" at this point, especially where the engine should be making its power.
this is also a sign of having a cam advanced too far like it is one tooth off but that seems unlikely because that would be a lot.

.
The cam was within one degree of the numbers of the cam card when I degreed it, which impressed me a bit.

 
Out of curiosity, where is your oxygen sensor located? Did that change?

1971 M-code Mach 1
Same location on the new headers as the old, in the collector a few inches behind the end of the primaries.

 
I just read this thread and it is an interesting problem, can you post all your atomic settings? Also did you update the latest firmware for the ATomic?

Barnett, the atomic can simulate vac adv for both ported and non ported up to around 15*. It has a MAP sensor so it takes SL pressure minus the map reading while running to determine how much vac the motor is producing. So at KO if the MAP reading on the handheld is 29.92 and idle its 15 then the engine is making 14.2" of vac. To disable vac adv just set vac to 0 in the handheld.

If I can see what all the Atomic settings are I may be able to help.

EDIT, to clarify if you are above SL the MAP sensor will reflect the correct altitude pressure you are at so it could be below 29.92 at KO.

 
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I just read this thread and it is an interesting problem, can you post all your atomic settings? Also did you update the latest firmware for the ATomic?

Barnett, the atomic can simulate vac adv for both ported and non ported up to around 15*. It has a MAP sensor so it takes SL pressure minus the map reading while running to determine how much vac the motor is producing. So at KO if the MAP reading on the handheld is 29.92 and idle its 15 then the engine is making 14.2" of vac. To disable vac adv just set vac to 0 in the handheld.

If I can see what all the Atomic settings are I may be able to help.

EDIT, to clarify if you are above SL the MAP sensor will reflect the correct altitude pressure you are at so it could be below 29.92 at KO.
I was kind of hoping you'd show up to talk about the EFI. I don't recall the numbers from the handheld off the top of my head, but the engine pulls 9" of vacuum idling at 900 RPM. Anyway, settings are:

Cubic Inch: 393

Cyl: 8

Cam: performance (mild ran well, too)

Fuel Pump: non-PWM with regulator

Idle target: 900

Rev limit: 7000

Timing control: Enabled

Fans: 1-185, 2-190

A/F: idle 13.0, cruise 13.0, WOT 12.8

Ign timing:

Idle RPM: 1000

Tot RPM: 2500

Idle advance: 16.0

Total advance: 34.0 (as indicated on handheld at 2500 RPM)

Vac advance: 10.0

Vacuum Type: ported

Pump squirt: 25%

Power Valve Enrich: 15%

 
Couple of questions:

On the rotor did it have timing marks so that you could set it to 15* opposite of rotation? Mine did not have the markings and if you rotated it to max travel it was only 13* so I had to modify it to get the full 15*. This issue with the rotor could give the ecu wrong timing info if its not corrected.

If the motor runs fine on the mild cam setting the you should try to resolve your issue with that setting.

Where is the O2 sensor located?

 
Have you tried tossing a carb back on it and see if it fixes the problem? That would go a long way towards seeing what the culprit may be.

I always had a known good carb, distributor, and coil to first fire or to test a fidgety engine.

- Paul of Mo

 
Couple of questions:

On the rotor did it have timing marks so that you could set it to 15* opposite of rotation? Mine did not have the markings and if you rotated it to max travel it was only 13* so I had to modify it to get the full 15*. This issue with the rotor could give the ecu wrong timing info if its not corrected.

If the motor runs fine on the mild cam setting the you should try to resolve your issue with that setting.

Where is the O2 sensor located?
The former Windsor didn't have timing marks and was limited to 13 degrees like yours. Elongating the channel .056" was required to get 15 degrees. The present Cleveland distributor has the rotor with timing marks and 20 degrees of adjustment either way, which is much better.

The O2 sensor is a few 4ish) inches into the collector behind the end of the primaries where it isn't interfered with by the crossmember and has clearance fo a slight upward angle, which is about as far behind the primaries as it was on the Windsor.

 
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