Best R12 replacement

Team, I need a little final help with my decision before I charge the AC.

I have a case of R-12, but decided to go R134 due tot he lower cost with any leak or re-charge needs in the future.  I have been told by Classic Auto Air and some others that R134 will run just fine in an original York compressor system.

THEN, I started seeing some cautious statements about high pressure, compressor load on a piston style compressor, inadequate cooling on hot days.  Some even say go with Duracool or R12A,  Now DuPont and Honeywell have developed a new R1234yf or something like that.

What is the best option for our cars today?  I have the system installed evacuated, and have Ester oil in the compressor.

If you say R12A, where do I find it?  I see that as more expensive than the R12.

Thanks for the guidance!

kcmash

It depends on what you consider to be "working fine". I've converted two cars to R134a with York compressors and larger capacity condensers. I never could get better than 52 degrees air. I went back to R12 and had 38 degree air. So no more 134a in old systems for me. Chuck

After your initial fill you would have 10 cans left ... I think

That should keep you going for 10 years if you had to top it off every year.

As for duracool...

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Well Chuck,

Considering you guys there in Oklahoma often forward the Texas humidity up here to Kansas City, I think we are on the same page.  58 degrees can have sweat balls running down the spine

 The system sucks down and holds so I don't THINK I have a leak.   I loaded green o-rings in every hose connection except the quick disconnect which has a buna O-ring.  The R12 in my garage is free to me, and I used Ester oil which is R12 compatible.  Anyone know if the leak indicator dye at the auto parts stores is compatible with R12?  

Now just see if I have a good R12 hose, replace the o-ring and inject the freeze?

Thanks for chiming in!

kcmash

Don, thanks for the info on the Duracool!

KC, any leak detection dye needs to be comparable with the oil

The dye will mix with the oil, then travel with the oil suspended in the refrigerant, other way to spot a leak is sign of oil.

Hey we have 92 and 52 percent humidity and it's climbing... I think my cheap work in the garage shoes were melting on the blacktop.

Just kinda paranoid about this system sealing so easily.  All new hoses all new o rings new condenser and dryer.

30 year old evaporator and compressor.   Along with service valves.

Vacuum test is good.  But the system operates under pressure.   So if she leaks I just want to be able to find it.

Kcmash

We Oklahomans are generous people, we share our weather with our neighbors. :whistling: We are supposed to get a break on Monday and Tuesday and Kansas should as well. The heat index has been 103-114 here for the last two+ weeks. Being from Ohio, I sometimes refer to summer here as Oklahoma winter, you just try to stay inside and benefit from one of the greatest inventions of all time, air conditioning. Don, I remember Cincinnati summers with no fondness. It seemed the humidity tracked almost one for one with the temperature. Chuck

We Oklahomans are generous people, we share our weather with our neighbors. :whistling: We are supposed to get a break on Monday and Tuesday and Kansas should as well. The heat index has been 103-114 here for the last two+ weeks. Being from Ohio, I sometimes refer to summer here as Oklahoma winter, you just try to stay inside and benefit from one of the greatest inventions of all time, air conditioning. Don, I remember Cincinnati summers with no fondness. It seemed the humidity tracked almost one for one with the temperature. Chuck

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You were from Cincinnati :huh:   next your going to tell me you liked the Bengals    :chin: rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl

Just kinda paranoid about this system sealing so easily.  All new hoses all new o rings new condenser and dryer.

30 year old evaporator and compressor.   Along with service valves.

Vacuum test is good.  But the system operates under pressure.   So if she leaks I just want to be able to find it.

Kcmash

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Well I'd be worried about the new stuff... the 30 year old bits probably good to go ::thumb::

It depends on what you consider to be "working fine". I've converted two cars to R134a with York compressors and larger capacity condensers. I never could get better than 52 degrees air. I went back to R12 and had 38 degree air. So no more 134a in old systems for me. Chuck

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Hmmm. This is not good news... but accessing R12 up where i live is like living in California... I may not have a choice as I want to keep the system factory in appearance. On a day like today with the heat and humidity, 52 degrees sounds good, I guess...

IMO R12 for automotive and R22 for residential are the two best refrigerants ever made by mankind. Ask any old timer hvac tech about R22. The replacement refrigerants for each must be run at higher pressures as they are not as efficient. I see people switching over to R134a in old cars and I wonder if they realize it isn't going to be as cool unless major components are swapped out. The 52 degree air is the kind of thing I'd expect. If you have a case of R12 and have performed leak tests, you should definitely run with the R12. My Mach 1 doesn't have AC, but my Ferrari does, and it was maintained using R12. My daughter has to close her vents when she goes for a ride because it's too cold for her. I'm glad because I see people having all sorts of AC issues with Ferrari 308 and 328 models on the forums. In many cases they have been converted over to R134a, but there are other issues particular to these models. Italians were never known for their AC prowess. lol I am in eastern PA and this weather is brutal. Mid to upper 90's, dew point of 75 degrees, as much as 110 degree heat index. We wait much of the year for the "good weather" and then we get this, and remain sequestered in our homes in the AC.

I have never been stopped by the refrigerant police and been checked. Has anyone been checked? lol. I think not.

The DuraCool is the best there is even better than R-12. It does not have to run at the high pressure and requires less to fill the system than ever R-12.

I have a case of R-12 I have been selling it is also illegal to use unless you have a license to install and a R-12 recovery unit. I have a unit and it has a 30 lb. bottle on it. Never bothered to weight it bought at an auction from a closing of an auto shop for $25.00.

It is not legal to top of a system. If it is low it is leaking and the leak has to be repaired before adding more. That is where a shop can get in trouble. There are those that go out with a vehicle with a leak and try to find shops that will just add and not fix the leak. They can loose their license if caught. They have them here that also check to see if they do the safety inspection correct also. 

I had a guy come to my place to buy PDB set up for his mustang. While removing it we were talking about AC he is an engineer at a plant near me that produces refrigeration equipment. He also agreed that the DuraCool refrigerant made from the highly refined propane is top of the line. It is pretty much approved in any country but U.S.. It is approved here for certain applications. 

Yes it is propane if you have a space saver spare the bottle for it has probably twice as much propane in it. You carry 18 gallons of gasoline also. My old Ford van had a 35 gallon propane tank on it. How many campers out there with gallons of propane on them. It is not dangerous it will burn if in the atmosphere. You can put a can of propane in fire shoot a hole in it and it will not explode. There is no oxygen inside so it cannot.

On the leak testing I never have any luck with the black light I do have a sniffer but does not sniff the DuraCool. One can of DuraCool will have the system blowing way colder than either R-12 or R-134. The head pressure will be lower than either also. You can try it and if you don't like change back.

http://www.duracool.com/

David,

Thanks for the information and the Duracool link.  The only open question I have on that stuff is if the charge hose will connect to my factory R12 service ports on the car.  The prices on the Duracool site are much better that eBay prices depending on the shipping

I pulled the box of R12 down today.  Looks like 2 2 cans have leaked out to that oZone demon at the polar caps.  I still have multiple 12 and 14 oz full cans.

I am in no big hurry, except awaiting my shifter linkage so I can get it back on the ground.  Not sure what to do for today.  Maybe recheck the valve adjustment.

kcmash

I am in the process of getting my a/c going also. I replaced everything except the evaporator and the original compressor. I removed the expansion valve and cleaned out the evaporator with an a/c flush. I am of course replacing the expansion valve and am having a hell of a time getting the new one on. I mean, holy crap I have been trying for 2 fn days and still didn’t get it on. I actually have blisters on my fingers from trying! Sounds crazy but it’s true. I had to give up for a day. I can get both of the connections to thread on separately, but not together. The threads are not stripped or cross threaded. I’m talking about both the ones coming thru the firewall from the evaporator. I just can’t seem to get them both to the same angle, but I will.

So after seeing how the 134a doesn’t really work that great, thanks Chuck! And I don’t have any R12, I am going to try the Duracool like David recommends. I have read all his posts about it, thanks David for all the great info by the way, so I am confident in giving it a try. So between what both Chuck and David says, I think this is the way to go for me. I will definitely let you guys know how it works out.

You can put a can of propane in fire shoot a hole in it and it will not explode. There is no oxygen inside so it cannot.

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David-  I enjoy your posts and you make a compelling case for Duracool.  If it is truly a better refrigerant I wonder why the auto manufacturers don't use it.  I heard of it being used quite a bit in places like Mexico, and I assumed it was because they don't seem to value human life as much there.  heh  It's true that a car has other more dangerous items on board, such as gasoline.  The '64 to '70 Mustangs can spew gas into the passenger compartment when hit from behind since the top of the gas tank is the trunk floor.  '71 to '73 Mustangs of course have an actual steel trunk floor.  If you ever feel like making a youtube video of shooting a tank of propane in fire I would like to see that.  lol

The fitting for the DuraCool is same as 134. You get the fittings to screw onto your connections at parts house. I would go ahead and put new schrade valve in you service ports also. Cheap and easy to install. My cars are 73 and do not have the isolating part of the service ports.

BTW if you shoot the propane tank it just goes flipping down the field from the pressure escaping. It will have ice on it when you go pick it up because of the evaporative cooling effect. 

I like blowing things up, lol. I use to fill plastic bags from my oxy. acetylene torch. Put cutting tip on light the torch get it adjust right then wet finger and put the torch out. Then fill plastic bag but do not pressurize it at all. Torch will light itself if you happen to pressurize, I can speak from experience on that one, lol. Twist the bags shut fold over and tape it. Take out in a field away from any windows. Twist up a news paper and put the end under the bag. Light the paper and run like heck at least 50 yards away. It sounds like an artillery piece going off. I did it once and a neighbor across the road thought their water heater had blown up rattled their windows hundreds of yards away. 

There are things in your garage that if mixed will explode so be careful what you mix. I will not say what but one is in your brake system. 

Tannerite is also fun but expensive. You can make your own. Some use it to take out whole herd of wild bore. Put corn down and about 5 or 10 lbs. of tannerite when they come to eat boom makes lots of sausage.

When I use to run my van on propane I had 500 gallon tank at home and my own filling station. 

DuraCool has a kit you can order with two cans of refrigerant, fill hose and temp gauge. Also has the oil with the dye in it. You should use a gauge set to charge correctly. I just order the lube and refrigerant separately. 

I might work on mine some today should be cooler in the garage.

I pulled the 73 vert into the garage and hooked up the vacuum pump again. I had got a can of 134a with dye and stop leak in it to put in to try and located the leak. I just put the one can in and the system did blow cold air and could see bubbles in the sight glass. I drove 4 or 5 miles to give it a chance to find the leak. Will see later if it all leaked out of maybe sealed the leak. If not leaking in couple days will pull the 134 out and put the Duracool in.

They have another show at the MOM next weekend it is hot in Charlotte for sure.

Would the R12 can tap feature pierce and dispense the Duracool?  The cans look similar, but they probably have different flanges, huh?

kcmash

I pulled the 73 vert into the garage and hooked up the vacuum pump again. I had got a can of 134a with dye and stop leak in it to put in to try and located the leak. I just put the one can in and the system did blow cold air and could see bubbles in the sight glass. I drove 4 or 5 miles to give it a chance to find the leak. Will see later if it all leaked out of maybe sealed the leak. If not leaking in couple days will pull the 134 out and put the Duracool in.

They have another show at the MOM next weekend it is hot in Charlotte for sure.

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Hey. That's good if you finally located that leak. Cograts!