Bought New Headers Too Soon!

[EBSTANG]

When I purchased the brand new FPA 4V headers for my Cleveland, I didn't know what was coming. I thought I was going to just replace the head gaskets, so I ordered some new headers to replace the old ones. Waited a few weeks for them to be fabbed and coated at FPA and then scheduled my appointment to get it done. Now the whole motor's is getting overhauled and the 4V heads had some crappy work done to them by some previous owner/shop. My guy says they need too much work and doesn't feel comfortable advising me to use them. He feels we should use aluminum Edelbrock Heads. Since the aftermarket heads are not 4V heads, my brand new $900 headers won't work!!!!! This is getting out of control and I'm stressing out over it!!! Are their any new heads I can use which will allow the use of my Brand New FPA 4V Headers?!? I'm sure Stan, the guy at Ford Powertrain Applications (FPA), won't allow me to ship back the 4V's and swap them for a set of 2V's. They don't stock, they build sets as their ordered, that's why you wait 2-3 weeks to get them. Stressin' out, any advice anyone? Thanks.

 

[MotoArts]

Depends, what exactly is wrong with your originals?

There are other alloy Cleveland head manufacturers if yours are legitimately toast, or source a new set of cores.

 

[Silverback]

Yea, what's wrong with the original heads? What was done wrong in the first place (I'm wondering if it's a case of "it really shouldn't have been done like this," but it would run fine like that for 50K miles)?

 

[dabowman]

If you want new heads check out these folks http://www.ausfordparts.com/afd4v.html. If want to say what iron just locate some more 4v heads that you can rebuild.

 

[Don C]

I would try to find a good machine shop that specializes in heads, take the heads to them and see what they have to say about them.

 

[will e]

With the exception of bad porting, cracking or an attempt to mill the rockers for studs there isn't that much that can go wrong with the heads.

What exactly is your machine shop's concern?

I would shy away from Edelbrock. They are a good company and I like some of their stuff but our engines are unique and the '350 chevy' approach won't work. I think CHI has some aftermarket 4v heads that will work with your headers.

Another options is to get another set of cores. 4v cast iron heads are getting cheaper all of the time since there are now some good aftermarket alternatives.

But I feel your pain. You drop some serious coin on something and find out it might not work. Been there, done that. It's all good in the end.

 

[Cwithers]

Definitely get a 2nd opinion on the heads!!

 

[Jeff73Mach1]

I have a pair of stripped 4V open chamber castings that could easily be built. They are stripped, but have not had anything done to them and are sound. I pulled them off a running engine and stripped them. PM me if you could use them and I'll make you a deal.

 

[clevelandcoupe]

EBSTANG,

I am currently running the edelbrock heads on my Cleveland powered Model A and am very happy with the performance.

I am using the 4V manifolds on them. Edelbrock designed these heads so either 2V or 4V will work.

Thanks, Jay

 

[71mach1lady]

Sounds like you need a new machine shop

 

[barnett468]

.

exactly why will the headers not fit?

 

[will e]

The larger 4v port headers will sometimes not seal on the 2v heads. Technically they will bolt on.

 

[EBSTANG]

If you want new heads check out these folks http://www.ausfordparts.com/afd4v.html. If want to say what iron just locate some more 4v heads that you can rebuild.

Thanks for the reply but the link doesn't work...do you have a new one to try?

Eric

 

[EBSTANG]

.

exactly why will the headers not fit?

When I ordered the headers from FPA, Stan (the owner) was very specific regarding my application, since they're built to order. He specifically asked me if I had 2V or 4V heads. The receipt states..."Flange Code 3/8- 4V" I'm assuming that if I were to replace my existing 4V heads with Edelbrocks, both my existing Edelbrock Torker Intake (which is bolted up to the existing 4V heads) and my new FPA headers which were built to bolt up to Mustang with 4Vheads (as well as power steering and standard trans), will not match up.

Edelbrock was closed yesterday, so I spoke to a tech guy at Jegs. He read, on some spec sheet, regarding the Edelbrock Heads, their intake & exhaust ports were designed to match up with the 2V design.

I plan on talking to Edelbrock tomorrow and get my info directly from the source. I will also find out specifically what is wrong with my heads...I will post what I find out. I do know, from the get go, that even though my engine guy is a "Ford Guy" he is not a 4V (Cleveland Heads) fan (you all know but may not agree with the reasons) and he also thinks that all engines are the same ("they're all just big air pumps...")...this bothered me when I first met him but he is highly recommended by everyone I asked personally (good sources) & at other shops & I even posted that I was looking for a good "Cleveland" mechanic on the local Mustang Club Forum and he was one of two responses I got with 94 other "views."




I am and have been a restoration contractor for 20 years and believe I have a pretty good mechanical aptitude and have read tons of material on the Cleveland over the last 3 months.(of course, my mechanic says "...you gotta stay off the internet...that **** is written by a guy workin at Walmart..." I know he's generalizing but...

I'm just trying to do it right because that is the "only way I roll" but defining "right" is very difficult when it is not your specialty. I read and I comprehend the material. These guys have very strong opinions about what they believe and are difficult to get to "listen" to other opinions. I know how it is when a client thinks he knows more than me about what I do for a living, so I do try to tread softly, since he has my baby in his possession and it's best to work through these kind of things. For now, I'm just doing my due diligence (which includes talking to all of you!), in an attempt to gain control of the ship. I'll post again tomorrow after I find a few things out.

THANK YOU ALL FOR TAKING THE TIME TO REACH OUT!

.

exactly why will the headers not fit?

When I ordered the headers from FPA, Stan (the owner) was very specific regarding my application, since they're built to order. He specifically asked me if I had 2V or 4V heads. The receipt states..."Flange Code 3/8- 4V" I'm assuming that if I were to replace my existing 4V heads with Edelbrocks, both my existing Edelbrock Torker Intake (which is bolted up to the existing 4V heads) and my new FPA headers which were built to bolt up to Mustang with 4Vheads (as well as power steering and standard trans), will not match up.

Edelbrock was closed yesterday, so I spoke to a tech guy at Jegs. He read, on some spec sheet, regarding the Edelbrock Heads, their intake & exhaust ports were designed to match up with the 2V design.

I plan on talking to Edelbrock tomorrow and get my info directly from the source. I will also find out specifically what is wrong with my heads...I will post what I find out. I do know, from the get go, that even though my engine guy is a "Ford Guy" he is not a 4V (Cleveland Heads) fan (you all know but may not agree with the reasons) and he also thinks that all engines are the same ("they're all just big air pumps...")...this bothered me when I first met him but he is highly recommended by everyone I asked personally (good sources) & at other shops & I even posted that I was looking for a good "Cleveland" mechanic on the local Mustang Club Forum and he was one of two responses I got with 94 other "views."




I am and have been a restoration contractor for 20 years and believe I have a pretty good mechanical aptitude and have read tons of material on the Cleveland over the last 3 months.(of course, my mechanic says "...you gotta stay off the internet...that **** is written by a guy workin at Walmart..." I know he's generalizing but...

I'm just trying to do it right because that is the "only way I roll" but defining "right" is very difficult when it is not your specialty. I read and I comprehend the material. These guys have very strong opinions about what they believe and are difficult to get to "listen" to other opinions. I know how it is when a client thinks he knows more than me about what I do for a living, so I do try to tread softly, since he has my baby in his possession and it's best to work through these kind of things. For now, I'm just doing my due diligence (which includes talking to all of you!), in an attempt to gain control of the ship. I'll post again tomorrow after I find a few things out.

THANK YOU ALL FOR TAKING THE TIME TO REACH OUT!

Some additional info, for those who are interested:

I believe my heads were off a 71 (D1AE-GA). They have the closed chamber design. From what I can see, the "1" in the stamping, along with the CC design would make them from a 71 "R Code" car, which would make them a Boss Head. Anyone able to confirm that??? and does it matter??? I thought I read that the quench design is more desirable and if given a choice the 70, 71, & 72's had the most desirable valve sizes??? 73's valve sizes changed.

My Mach 1 is a 73 but had a "total rebuild" supposedly. This was supposedly around 15,000 miles ago.

My guy is saying:

In addition to the head comments we already spoke of in the original post of this thread...




"...the crank has been cut .020 under already and was repaired-it is starting to fail and the weld flake off..."

"...all bearings are down to the copper..."

"...recommend new crank and rods- it would at that point be a 408 stroker..."

"...roller rockers..."

"...push rods with oil restrictors..."

"...gaskets..."

"...Pump and set up pick up clearance..." (It was set incorrectly)

"...timing set..."

"...perform tappet bore work as per article supplied- that is a good upgrade..." (I gave him an article I read on tappet bore bushings to control waste oil, especially on the right side...)

"...oil restrictors cam bearing area..."

He states..."It will be 450 HP+ engine, it will use 93 Octane pump fuel. This is a quick overview"

"Approximate cost and labor $10,250." I've already paid about $1000. for; initial diagnosis (leak down test, compression test, vacuum testing, etc) of head problem (suspected leak), backfiring through carb., & disassembly/removal of engine from car.

Compression/ Leak Down Results

1/150lbs/10%

2/145lbs/10%

3/145/20

4/150/20

5/150/20

6/155/10

7/150/20

8/150/ 2 (not a typo)

Should I just buy a new 351 crate motor? Whose?

 

[will e]

There are no new 'Ford' 351C crate motors. There are a couple of aftermarket guys including:

http://www.racecrateengines.com/catalog/item/7152686/9232095.htm

and

http://www.pavtek.com.au/index.php/component/content/article/7-parts-a-products/parts-a-products/236-new-ford-cleveland-aftermarket-block

If you go crate you might consider a non-Cleveland option. This will require a rethink on the exhaust. The Windsor block will fit without any issues and there may be custom header solutions for putting a Windsor into our Mustangs. Generally there is more aftermarket support for the Windsor engines and the prices are less.

 

[Jeff73Mach1]

I built my own motor using just about everything you listed except the lifter bore sleeving-if your shop is set to perform this mod it is a great idea, just make sure the oiling holes are sized properky for the cam of your choice.

I used a solid roller lifter Lunati Cam and a Scat 393 forged Stroker kit that was internally balanced by the machinist. I picked Harlan Sharp Roller Rockers and a Stud Girdle to keep the valvetrain from flexing

I think it ran me about 6K in machine work and parts including a larger 850 CFM Holley carburetor . I used ARP hardware almost everywhere. It would have been cheaper without the Cam as that set me back almost a grand. Going to internal balancing added to the machining costs and required an expensive dampener and a replacing the flywheel (Okay, I could have had it ground and balanced, but I wanted it SFI certified like my bellhousing)

If you go with a stroker, Open Chamber heads will reduce the compression ratio a bit which tends to be a good thing, or you can throw a set of pop up pistons in and have less valve shrouding and the same overall compression as closed chamber heads. The Scat stroker kits are a great deal, but . . . There are some rear main seal leak issues reported. It may be a dimensional difference, but there have been a number of folks that have had to replace rear main seals early on with the stroker kits.

and I don't work at Walmart

 

[computercarguy]

I'm wondering if the previous machinist buggered up the angle of the canted valve guides and thus the seats? Doing so could also explain the engines short life since the work was done last. Throws the valvetrain out of symmetry.

 

[Totalled]

http://www.chiheads.com.au/product-category/heads/ford-cylinder-heads/4v/

http://www.ausfordparts.com/afd4v.html

 

[EBSTANG]

http://www.chiheads.com.au/product-category/heads/ford-cylinder-heads/4v/

http://www.ausfordparts.com/afd4v.html

Anyone have any experience with either of these CHI or AFP 4V heads?

They've got me interested...