Oil issue

[Kit Sullivan]

Many skilled mechanics mistakenly double gasket oil filters. It is a common mistake. Especially if it had been sitting a long time since the last oil change. Age will make the old gasket stick to the engine block's oil filter mounting surface, and it is easy to install a new filter and gasket right on top without noticing. The resulting double-gasketed filter will hold tight and dry for up to a couple minutes or so...then usually blows out making a mess, just as you described it.

 

[Mikes73]

Also, I would ditch the Fram oil filter and get a Motorcraft FL-1A oil filter for any engine I actully cared about, just my opinion no offense Fram fans. I have personally seen a 5 PSI difference in oil pressure at idle (fram lower) from fram to a motorcraft in personal back to back testing with fresh oil and new oil filters.

 

[peeenl]

Well guess what...that old gasket is sitting there, sticking out like a store thumb and staring me in the face. My wife said to tell you all, "Thanks guys. You're all the family I always wanted."

 

[jeff8877]

Congrats...glad it was something easy. We have all been there. Happy New Year!

 

[Kit Sullivan]

An oil filter, by design cannot affect your oil pressure in any way other than restricting flow if it is severely plugged up from overuse. A new, properly functioning oil filter cannot cause a too-high or a too-low pressure situation. Your engine's oil pressure is regulated by the oil-pressure check-valve in the oil pump, and is not regulated or even affected by the filter.

An especially free-flowing filter made with a multi-cellulose media will allow oil pressure to build easily...the check valve will limit pressure more easily.

A lesser-quaility birch ( tree bark) element filter will not flow as readily...however, the oil pump check valve will simply allow pressure to build to the proper level, easily overcoming any minor restriction.

If the filter becomes severely clogged, the by-pass valve in the filter will open, and you will still get proper oil pressure, albeit with unfiltered oil.

Oil filters have been unjustly accused of multitudes of oil-pressure related problems for years.

There is nothing wrong with Fram filters, they are perfectly adequate. There are better filters...of course. But that doesn't mean Frams are no good.

 

[Mikes73]

An oil filter, by design cannot affect your oil pressure in any way other than restricting flow if it is severely plugged up from overuse. A new, properly functioning oil filter cannot cause a too-high or a too-low pressure situation. Your engine's oil pressure is regulated by the oil-pressure check-valve in the oil pump, and is not regulated or even affected by the filter.

An especially free-flowing filter made with a multi-cellulose media will allow oil pressure to build easily...the check valve will limit pressure more easily.

A lesser-quaility birch ( tree bark) element filter will not flow as readily...however, the oil pump check valve will simply allow pressure to build to the proper level, easily overcoming any minor restriction.

If the filter becomes severely clogged, the by-pass valve in the filter will open, and you will still get proper oil pressure, albeit with unfiltered oil.

Oil filters have been unjustly accused of multitudes of oil-pressure related problems for years.

There is nothing wrong with Fram filters, they are perfectly adequate. There are better filters...of course. But that doesn't mean Frams are no good.

Not trying to argue with you Kit, but this is first hand experience that I have had in oil pressure differences from one oil filter to another, I guess my mechanical oil pressure must be defective lol.

 

[will e]

Well guess what...that old gasket is sitting there, sticking out like a store thumb and staring me in the face. My wife said to tell you all, "Thanks guys. You're all the family I always wanted."

That's awesome! It's always good to find out that something that could be horrible is actually an easy fix.

Thank goodness too that you were just idling and were able to shut it down quickly. It probably saved your engine.

 

[Kit Sullivan]

Mike,

Mostly I try not to "jump into the fray" when a subject like these come up in casual conversation, but sometimes I can't seem to help myself.

Oil filters have been unfairly maligned for years for all kinds of oil system failures by those that may have a limited or only partial understanding of the true functions of the systems.

Again...not trying to be a dick or a know-it-all, so please don't take offense.

 

[73StangCoupe]

I have left the old gasket several times... it happens. Good luck.

 

[will e]

I noticed when I pulled the K/N filter off it didn't seem to be full of oil (351C). Previously I had a mobil 1 filter that was practically empty. This is of course bad bad bad. I put another K/N on and am going to yank it today to see if it is only half full. I don't have this issue with Fram.

 

[Mikes73]

I noticed when I pulled the K/N filter off it didn't seem to be full of oil (351C). Previously I had a mobil 1 filter that was practically empty. This is of course bad bad bad. I put another K/N on and am going to yank it today to see if it is only half full. I don't have this issue with Fram.

Sounds like the anti-drainback valve on the other filters was not functioning, glad you like your Fram, it sounds like it is working as designed and that is a good thing.

Kit, no offense taken, you win all knowing one, I guess running and installing two oil filters within minutes of each other isn't ambient enough with the Fram being first so the oil wasn't even hot yet when the lower oil pressure was achived. My wife showed up with the Fl-1A minutes after I installed the Fram so I yanked it and installed the motorcraft and presto 5 more PSI oil pressure at idle hot or cold. 90 wt oil not thicker than 30 wt, interesting

To the original poster I am glad you figured it out, happy new year

 

[Go Time]

Great news on the double gasket , simple repairs are great. Happy new year.

 

[Kit Sullivan]

90 wt oil not thicker than 30 wt? interesting

That is correct: When the SAE decided on the number scale for viscosities of different automotive lubricants, they made some simple yet ingenious decisons with regards to the average consumer's habit of making basic assumptions that would actually be wrong.

To wit:

If a hypothetical consumer was in the autoparts store looking for "30 weight motor oil", he would probably take most notice of the "30 weight" listed on the container, and not really what the fluid actually was...for instance gear oil vs motor oil.

So, this hypothetical car-guy may easily and accidentally grab some 30-weight gear oil thinking it was 30-weight motor oil, and install it in his engine's crankcase. That is bad.

So...to try and prevent this, they decided on a numbering scale unique to each of those fluids.

PCMO (Passenger Car Motor Oil) generally has viscosities listed no higher than 60-weight, while gear oils will generally have the lowest viscosity listed as a 70-weight. This is not a rule, or even mandatory...just a strongly-preferred guideline set up by the SAE.

Intersetingly, the actual gradients of centipoise (where viscosity values are ultimately derived from) of PCMO vs Gera Oil are nearly identical. So, in a way...it could be said that a 90-weight gear oil has the SAME physical viscosity as a 30-weight motor oil.

I have found it humorous over the years when i have heard of some "knowing mechanics" who will have an engine that is worn out beyond reasonable use, and will try to salvage a severe rod knock or massive oil consumption probelm by filling the crankcase with 90-weight gear oil, obviously thinking that "since 90-weight gear oil is THREE TIMES as thick as 30-weight motor oil, it should quiet down the knock a bit, or slow down the oil burning."

Unfortunately, none of that is actually true.

Here is a little quiz for those of you that care to try:

One of the lubricants in automotive gear oil (GL-3 thru 5) is chlorine and chlorinated derivatives. That is partially what gives gear oil the awesome ability to provide surface-film strength(hydro-static) lubrication without the aid of an oil pump or any device providing supra-ambient pressure.

Since the chlorine is such a good barrier lubricant, most would think that it would be an excellent additive to incorporate into PCMO (passenger car motor oil), for obvious reasons.

However, PCMO cannot have any type of chlorine or chlorine derivatives in it. How come?

And another note: many of you will remember "Dura-Lube", and the similar products that stormed the TVs back in the 80's and 90's with thier amazing claims. The original formula of Dura-Lube in fact was LOADED with chlorinated solvents, and lots of zinc too. And it did perform as advertised.

So, the question again is: Why was Dura-Lube forced to remove all chlorine from thier engine formula and why is it a bad thing?

 

[Mikes73]

90 wt oil not thicker than 30 wt? interesting

That is correct: When the SAE decided on the number scale for viscosities of different automotive lubricants, they made some simple yet ingenious decisons with regards to the average consumer's habit of making basic assumptions that would actually be wrong.

To wit:

If a hypothetical consumer was in the autoparts store looking for "30 weight motor oil", he would probably take most notice of the "30 weight" listed on the container, and not really what the fluid actually was...for instance gear oil vs motor oil.

So, this hypothetical car-guy may easily and accidentally grab some 30-weight gear oil thinking it was 30-weight motor oil, and install it in his engine's crankcase. That is bad.

So...to try and prevent this, they decided on a numbering scale unique to each of those fluids.

PCMO (Passenger Car Motor Oil) generally has viscosities listed no higher than 60-weight, while gear oils will generally have the lowest viscosity listed as a 70-weight. This is not a rule, or even mandatory...just a strongly-preferred guideline set up by the SAE.

Intersetingly, the actual gradients of centipoise (where viscosity values are ultimately derived from) of PCMO vs Gera Oil are nearly identical. So, in a way...it could be said that a 90-weight gear oil has the SAME physical viscosity as a 30-weight motor oil.

I have found it humorous over the years when i have heard of some "knowing mechanics" who will have an engine that is worn out beyond reasonable use, and will try to salvage a severe rod knock or massive oil consumption probelm by filling the crankcase with 90-weight gear oil, obviously thinking that "since 90-weight gear oil is THREE TIMES as thick as 30-weight motor oil, it should quiet down the knock a bit, or slow down the oil burning."

Unfortunately, none of that is actually true.

Here is a little quiz for those of you that care to try:

One of the lubricants in automotive gear oil (GL-3 thru 5) is chlorine and chlorinated derivatives. That is partially what gives gear oil the awesome ability to provide surface-film strength(hydro-static) lubrication without the aid of an oil pump or any device providing supra-ambient pressure.

Since the chlorine is such a good barrier lubricant, most would think that it would be an excellent additive to incorporate into PCMO (passenger car motor oil), for obvious reasons.

However, PCMO cannot have any type of chlorine or chlorine derivatives in it. How come?

And another note: many of you will remember "Dura-Lube", and the similar products that stormed the TVs back in the 80's and 90's with thier amazing claims. The original formula of Dura-Lube in fact was LOADED with chlorinated solvents, and lots of zinc too. And it did perform as advertised.

So, the question again is: Why was Dura-Lube forced to remove all chlorine from thier engine formula and why is it a bad thing?

I've only used heavier (thicker) oil on older engines with looser bearing clearances. I guess I sort of understand your thick non thick oil theory, but one thing is for sure when you pour 90 wt out of a container it sure comes out ALOT slower than if it was a bottle of 30 wt

Happy new year Kit, your posts are always well thought out and very interesting. Take care, gotta run, I have an exploder with a bad blend door actuator that needs fixin.

 

[peeenl]

I'll throw an off the wall guess that if oil containing chlorine burns; it gives off chlorine gas, and that we don't want to be hanging around things that can potentially give off this poisonous gas without the proper protection.

Update: Redid the oil change and ran the car another 10-15 minutes. For the first time in a little while, there was no smoke, fire, or oil flying around in the engine compartment. The tail pipes were smoking for a while. One completely cleared out. The other is still smoking a bit, but lightened up significantly.

I have been tinkering quite a bit to get it to this point since it got shipped to the house. I'm hoping its still just a combination of the tinkering and sitting that has a little smoke coming out. In any case I'll consider this day a success.

 

[Mikes73]

The smoke from the tailpipes COULD be worn and broken valve stem seals, usually you will see smoke for a bit at start up that clears up after the engine runs for a while.

They aren't that hard to replace, just time consuming. Good to hear things are improving.

 

[barnett468]

I'll throw an off the wall guess that if oil containing chlorine burns; it gives off chlorine gas,

actually it is no longer chlorine after it goes thru the combustion process but no exhaust fumes are good.

you may need an oil separator for the pcv.

 

[T-Tom]

Kit asked;

"Why was Dura-Lube forced to remove all chlorine from their engine formula and why is it a bad thing?"

He has done an extensive article for the Boss 302 Registry. Check it out for the answer.

http://www.boss302.com/oil.htm