Jump to content

Recommended Posts

Just a curiosity but what can be done to hot rod a 351m 2v?

I might be in possession of a lifted 81 bronco soon, that will become a lake toy but want some more umph to turn and burn the 35x12.5 inch tires 00c0c_6K3GBqvUyXK_600x450.jpg.2b58f1340586901ed09f959ef8f0abea.jpg

00H0H_fZfVUAifM8E_600x450.jpg.bcf34398ff02fa7bd63259cbaa5215b3.jpg

00q0q_l7DBVwXMlEz_600x450.jpg.57d125403698e5af31e705f59b4a027c.jpg

2cossj6.png

97 F150: wrecked, 96 Dodge 4x4: blown motor / donated to the base

88 Suburban 4x4 355 cid 8 inch lift: sold, 95 Celica 5 speed : sold

68 F750 391 cid : sold,  96 F350 7.3 diesel dually : sold

86 Chevy 1500 305 cid c1500: sold, 73 Mustang mach 1 466 cid 5 speed : under construction

89 F350 4x4 cummins swap : sold, 64 Dodge d600: gone

00 Excursion: traded, 72 Mustang mach 1 302: scrapped

73 Mustang coupe: scrapped, 73 ranchero gt

06 Honda crf 450x : sold, 04 Honda vtx 1800

88 Bronco xlt lariat: sold, 76 Charger: traded

95 F350 4x4: sold , 91 Crown Victoria 302: sold

02 Dakota: traded, 96 f250 powerstroke: parts truck

87 f700, 98 e350 powerstroke: sold

03 land rover: traded, 95 f350 dually: part out

95 f350 dually: traded, 94 f150 4x4: traded

97 f250: sold, 76 Maverick 302: sold

91 240sx rb25: sold, 86 firebird: sold

86 Trans Am: sold, 88 westernstar: sold

89 dodge d350: sold, 2000 Dakota 4x4: sold  

84 f350 3+3: sold, 90 bronco: partout

67 catalina, 64 chevy c60

64 jeep j200, 74 corvette stingray

79 Lincoln mark V, 2013 f350: goldilocks

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Swap the stock heads for 2V Clevelands.

Change the stock timing gear set to non-retarded or adjustable.

Pete - MotoArts Decals and Signs

'71 Sportsroof 351C-4V/4-speed - FINALLY under construction - no, wait, on hold again...

'90 Mustang 7-Up 5.0 ragtop, rolling beater - SOLD

'66 Sunbeam Tiger Mk.IA, survivor

Link to post
Share on other sites

timing chain, 260/270ish duration camshaft, 2v to 4v manifold torque is the key

2w6ugt2.png

Brad Smith

Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree. Add some Cleveland heads, cam, and maybe upgrade the lifters and switch to roller rockers. Aussie heads would be even better. Keep in mind, this is a truck so you'll want the cam, intake, and heads working to produce low and mid range torque. For that reason, a dual plane intake much better than a single plane intake. There was a discussion of this exact subject this week on another forum I visit frequently on the Ford Truck Enthusiasts website.

 

Good luck.


Make it a 400 with tmeyer pistons to get the compression up into the 9s.

 

X2. Stroking it to a 400 will help with that torque, too, and get the compression up to about 9.4 or so. Let you make some good power on pump gas.

No replacement for displacement. ;)

Ron

The Rickster, a 1973 Mach 1, being restored as a tribute to my brother who passed away with COVID in July 2020.

Billy, a 1976 Ford Bronco, also needs a lot of work.

El Guapo, a 1986 F150, frame-off Resto-Mod.

Also, in the queue, a 1950 Ford F1 Panel truck and 1962 Falcon Ranchero

Link to post
Share on other sites

http://www.projectbronco.com/Technical_Articles/351m400_performance_build_up.htm

 

Pretty much sums it all up but I have not built a 351M or a 400.

 

Seems like he knows what he is talking about.

 

Paul

Link to post
Share on other sites

You mentioned it is for a lake property? You got a boat? Because the M makes a good anchor. The 400 has been used with success for modified competition, but not in vehicles.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Kit Sullivan

I too have always heard from engine builders who know that any variation of the 351M, 400M or 351/400M are terrible for many reasons. My old man memory thinks these are some of the reasons:

1) Terrible heads

2) Horrible valve train, weak emissions-oriented cam

3) Undersized journals

4) Crappy, low-compression dished pistons

5) Skinny and weak con-rods

6) Inadequate and failure-inducing oiling system

7) Heavy....just too heavy

 

Of course this may not be totally accurate, but I have heard these same complaints from many others who are familiar. All of these problems are curable: just throw cubic money at it until you have solved the issues. But why start with an engine that puts you so far behind the "8- ball"? I think it would cost considerably more overall in the long run than if you just started with a better candidate in the first place. Even if the "M" was free, I still it would end more expensive overall to do it right.

 

I once had 351/400M in 79 Lincoln MK-V, and it gave me dependable service up to about 200K before I sold it. However, it was a pooch...gutless in every sense of the word.

But hey! It may have had no power, but at least it drank a lot of gas! Typically 9-11 mpg, driving it very easy.

Overall I was very dissapointed in its performance, even in stock 2-V form.

 

I stick wjth engines I know are and that I am familiar with:

1) Any Ford "Windsor" except the horrific 255

2) a true "Cleveland" (335- series)

3) Any 385- series (429/460)

4) Most "FE" Fords

 

And of course:

1) the famed SBC...one of the greatest engines ever overall

2) the MK-IV "porcupines"...inspiration for Ford's 385- series.

 

Like most, I guess I just stick to what know.

 

But if you get that "M" done up right on a reasonable budget, share the recipe!

Link to post
Share on other sites

Why all the hate for the 351M? It's VERY Cleveland-like... in a de-tuned kind of way. A lot of Cleveland hot rod parts will work with them, and any de-tune deficiencies can be overcome with some research and smart building. 351C-2V heads, Edelbrock intake & carb, and some headers... just bolted on 80-90hp. Throw in a cam, flat-tops, and roller everything, another 50-70hp.

 

Wait a minute there, Mr. Auron-"car-ADHD-guy:" You've got a '73 Mach 1 to finish and 2 parts cars to strip and chop-up before too much longer.

 

And you're right... those Coke Zeroes in the fridge taste like ass. :dodgy:

Eric

mach1sig2.gif

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

And you're right... those Coke Zeroes in the fridge taste like ass. :dodgy:

Ha told you and I was just curious because a guy is willing to trade the dually for it and I would like another truck that screams "ME!!!!!" that the wife would know how to drive while I'm gone (as in automatic) cause I can't stand to see my dear pickup sit for 7 months and not be driven or even started ( she can't seem to remember how to do that or take the key out)

2cossj6.png

97 F150: wrecked, 96 Dodge 4x4: blown motor / donated to the base

88 Suburban 4x4 355 cid 8 inch lift: sold, 95 Celica 5 speed : sold

68 F750 391 cid : sold,  96 F350 7.3 diesel dually : sold

86 Chevy 1500 305 cid c1500: sold, 73 Mustang mach 1 466 cid 5 speed : under construction

89 F350 4x4 cummins swap : sold, 64 Dodge d600: gone

00 Excursion: traded, 72 Mustang mach 1 302: scrapped

73 Mustang coupe: scrapped, 73 ranchero gt

06 Honda crf 450x : sold, 04 Honda vtx 1800

88 Bronco xlt lariat: sold, 76 Charger: traded

95 F350 4x4: sold , 91 Crown Victoria 302: sold

02 Dakota: traded, 96 f250 powerstroke: parts truck

87 f700, 98 e350 powerstroke: sold

03 land rover: traded, 95 f350 dually: part out

95 f350 dually: traded, 94 f150 4x4: traded

97 f250: sold, 76 Maverick 302: sold

91 240sx rb25: sold, 86 firebird: sold

86 Trans Am: sold, 88 westernstar: sold

89 dodge d350: sold, 2000 Dakota 4x4: sold  

84 f350 3+3: sold, 90 bronco: partout

67 catalina, 64 chevy c60

64 jeep j200, 74 corvette stingray

79 Lincoln mark V, 2013 f350: goldilocks

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

if the 1981 351M made 200hp at the crank when new i'd be surprised. So Ford probably had a rotating assembly to match. That long stroke came with long rods...rated for under 200hp. Why build a top end when the bottom end would be expected to grenade immediately after?

Link to post
Share on other sites

I too have always heard from engine builders who know that any variation of the 351M, 400M or 351/400M are terrible for many reasons. My old man memory thinks these are some of the reasons:

1) Terrible heads

yep

2) Horrible valve train, weak emissions-oriented cam

Cam sucks, nothing really weak other than long pushrods.

3) Undersized journals

No, oversized actually. The same as a 351W.

4) Crappy, low-compression dished pistons

Yep

5) Skinny and weak con-rods

Not really. They are actually pretty beefy. It was common to use them in long rod builds before aftermarket 6" rods became commonplace.

6) Inadequate and failure-inducing oiling system

Same oiling system as a 351C... because it's literally a tall deck cleveland with windsor main sizes.

7) Heavy....just too heavy

Could be. Plus side is a big block shares the bell pattern, so it's a bolt in with mounts.

 

Of course this may not be totally accurate, but I have heard these same complaints from many others who are familiar.

 

See responses in red.

1973 Mach 1 Q code 351 4V, 9A paint, standard interior, 3.50 rear, C6 trans.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I too have always heard from engine builders who know that any variation of the 351M, 400M or 351/400M are terrible for many reasons. My old man memory thinks these are some of the reasons:

1) Terrible heads

2) Horrible valve train, weak emissions-oriented cam

3) Undersized journals

4) Crappy, low-compression dished pistons

5) Skinny and weak con-rods

6) Inadequate and failure-inducing oiling system

7) Heavy....just too heavy

 

Of course this may not be totally accurate, but I have heard these same complaints from many others who are familiar.

Of course, that's pretty similar to what the Windsor motor guys say about the 351 Cleveland motor, too.

And don't even ask what Chevy guys say about Ford motors. ;)

 

But with the right parts, an old 351M can be brought to life and still be in the original package. For someone doing a restoration, that can be really desirable. The 351M isn't my favorite, but I know some guys who really like theirs. Just sayin'.

Ron

The Rickster, a 1973 Mach 1, being restored as a tribute to my brother who passed away with COVID in July 2020.

Billy, a 1976 Ford Bronco, also needs a lot of work.

El Guapo, a 1986 F150, frame-off Resto-Mod.

Also, in the queue, a 1950 Ford F1 Panel truck and 1962 Falcon Ranchero

Link to post
Share on other sites

here is a good article for a 400 same engine just different Crank & Pistons under good power awesome torque

http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/engine/hrdp_9809_ford_406_engine_build/viewall.html

2w6ugt2.png

Brad Smith

Link to post
Share on other sites

i never heard a windsor owner bad mouth a cleveland. most of them dont know what a cleveland is.

 

I have alot...Even the same thing from chevy guys...I had a 5.0 owner tell me that the reason the cleveland had bad oiling issues was cause of the head design "rolls eyes"..lol..Then i was told by a windsor guy who had a mustang coupe that he was glad his had the 351w and not a cleveland cause of the weak bottoms ends a cleveland has...I said..No they dont..They have a stronger bottom end than a Windsor...I said that 221 block design is old and cleveland is years beyond in tech...he did not like that i said it..lol

Link to post
Share on other sites

builders of racing engines have written that clevelands are prone to cracks in the main saddles and suggest grinding off the cast flashing. but no idea what kind of HP they were building or how many runs would produce these cracks. they might have been complaining that 850hp drag engines were only lasting half a season! But these engines seem to do fine in street cars up to 400hp without any problems. And brand new Mustang GT's boast they have 400hp now. ha ha

Link to post
Share on other sites

the 351m is a good truck motor. as far as hot rodding goes, just go about it like any other engine. since its a truck I doubt you'll be turning a ton of rpm so I really wouldn't worry about the bottom end.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I second Tim Meyer

I'll scan my picture from circa 1982

My 1980 Bronco. First independent suspension lifted ford in the country with 40's on it.

Skyjacker copied the steering arm for their lift kit about 2 years later.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the reason the 351M and even the 400 are looked upon badly is that they came about at a time when performance engines were slowly disappearing from the market (70 gas crunch, insurance, etc...).

Due to the timing of their release, there was minimal factory "hot rodding" parts available (pretty much what ever parts swapped over from the 351 Cleveland). And then there was no aftermarket support. This is why I think they are overlooked.

If they were released 5 years earlier, they would have taken on a whole new persona...they were pretty much gelded by the "new emissions standards", lower octane fuel and the industry drive to shifting to smaller cars.

I want to say I recall reading an article some time back that the 400 was considered for the Mustang...but we see that route wasn't taken. If they had been dropped into the Mustang, you can only imagine the different parts availability...might have even been a Boss 400...who knows?;)

If you look around though, there are some companies starting to make better design intakes. Since the Cleveland heads are able to be swapped out, better designs are already available.

Biggest hurdle is the pistons...but I have seen flat tops available a few years ago...you could even have some custom made, pricing isn't too bad on that route.

I think we as car folks are at a great point in time for car parts, lot's of aftermarket availability, many years of research and development already done, prices are decent, materials are better...a lot easier to hot rod now a days than even 20 year ago.

I think with a litte dilligence and a lot of on line searching, you could easily put together a respectable 351M.

Just my thoughts anyways...

Michael[/php]

Link to post
Share on other sites

if the 1981 351M made 200hp at the crank when new i'd be surprised. So Ford probably had a rotating assembly to match. That long stroke came with long rods...rated for under 200hp. Why build a top end when the bottom end would be expected to grenade immediately after?

 

The m cranks are very stout one of the first stroker "kits" for the 351w involved taking a 400m crank milling the front to fit in a windsor and offset grinding the rod journals. This produced the 408w and was pretty frequent in the late 70's early 80's.

 

I had a '78 f150 with a 351m in it with headers and aftermarket intake and that thing was a beast, really drank the gas though.

Link to post
Share on other sites

so it was a very inefficient engine from the factory. look, Kaase uses the 400m to win Engine Masters competitions, but the factory had to deal with the fed and they had given up on performance (efficiency) at that point. they needed more time to balance the govt demands with the need to sell cars. was a dark, dark time in America. sigh, zepplin released in thru the out door and disco was on the radio.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I had one that I rebuilt in a 1973 Ford LTD 2Dr. Big engine with not a lot of power, but I built it back stock. Talk about a lead sled. Smooth though, I paid a whopping $350 for the car before the rebuild. ;)

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 4 weeks later...

What about a torino with a 400?

2cossj6.png

97 F150: wrecked, 96 Dodge 4x4: blown motor / donated to the base

88 Suburban 4x4 355 cid 8 inch lift: sold, 95 Celica 5 speed : sold

68 F750 391 cid : sold,  96 F350 7.3 diesel dually : sold

86 Chevy 1500 305 cid c1500: sold, 73 Mustang mach 1 466 cid 5 speed : under construction

89 F350 4x4 cummins swap : sold, 64 Dodge d600: gone

00 Excursion: traded, 72 Mustang mach 1 302: scrapped

73 Mustang coupe: scrapped, 73 ranchero gt

06 Honda crf 450x : sold, 04 Honda vtx 1800

88 Bronco xlt lariat: sold, 76 Charger: traded

95 F350 4x4: sold , 91 Crown Victoria 302: sold

02 Dakota: traded, 96 f250 powerstroke: parts truck

87 f700, 98 e350 powerstroke: sold

03 land rover: traded, 95 f350 dually: part out

95 f350 dually: traded, 94 f150 4x4: traded

97 f250: sold, 76 Maverick 302: sold

91 240sx rb25: sold, 86 firebird: sold

86 Trans Am: sold, 88 westernstar: sold

89 dodge d350: sold, 2000 Dakota 4x4: sold  

84 f350 3+3: sold, 90 bronco: partout

67 catalina, 64 chevy c60

64 jeep j200, 74 corvette stingray

79 Lincoln mark V, 2013 f350: goldilocks

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...