1973 351 C running hot issues

[clevelandcoupe]

David,

Nice job !!!

Now its time to take a rest and an adult beverage or soft drink of your choice.

ENJOY your success.....

Thanks, Jay

 

[Carolina_Mountain_Mustangs]

I gave the old car a good shakedown for sure. 1 1/2 hours, to town lots of stop lights, stopped by parts house I buy from. Went to my friends restorations shop, Firebird HO is getting very slick and shiny. Went to two grocery stores in the 80's temp today. Ran the air but must have a vacuum line wrong. The vents would not blow but blower going. Clutch on air kicks in. NO, NO, NO overheating at all. Went through road construction had to sit over 5 min. just let it idle in neutral no increase in temp at all over cruising speed. 

Still have to get the PB booster rebuilt bad vacuum leak but takes 5 weeks for turn around.

So I do believe I will get a carburetor kit and go through the Holley 4-V since this car sat for 26 years. Does have a little surge to it at cruising speed. Not sure the secondaries kick in either.

To recap what was found and what it caused and the symptoms.

This car had sat in California or Reno for the last 25 years. The PO was a sprint car racer and pulled the engine bored it .060" Yes sixty over, added mild cam hydraulic, new valves, springs, added an Edelbrock Performer 4-V to 2-V head intake with a Holley 4-V. Also has long tube headers and stainless dual exhaust.

I had the car for nearly 3 years now and with building garage and family just got it running August 2017. It would always run on the hot side, not boil out water until you stopped the engine then it would blow out coolant. The radiator looked good, hoses new and I had the correct Cleveland style thermostat in place. BTW, from what I see there is no shortage of the 351 C thermostat with the correct configuration to work with the dual flow block design. You can get about anywhere.

I had taken the car to Charlotte to the MOM Mustang Owner's Museum meet last April and ran several laps on the road coarse and part of the track. Again on the hot side but did not blow coolant until I stopped.

In the past I knew that blowing coolant after stopping is a sign the head gaskets are backwards. The water is dead headed in and cannot circulate but for a very little hole that is in the wrong place. When you shut off the pressure blows back through the water pump. I searched the net and found that the Cleveland head gaskets have a pretty much square corner on the bottom front of the gasket with a big radius on the rear bottom. I also looked at a bare block and you can go through the thermostat opening and check the passenger side with a wire.

So when I checked the R.H. gasket was backwards. Could not see the L.H. for the P.S. and Air brackets in the way so I pulled the heads. The R.H. was backwards and L.H. was correct. I replaced them with new Fel Pro and new Fel Pro intake gasket. While there I found out the engine is .060" over standard which I have been told in the past will run hot.

I did sort of screw up the thin paper gasket on the intake. I was putting this together by myself and those parts are heavy. I guess the RTV sealer did the trick and no leaks.

So as a wrap up do not always throw in the towel. An experienced engine builder did a simple thing of turning the head gaskets backwards and the PO I suspect gave up on the car due to overheating and sold it to me. Always go back to the basics. The coolant flow in a Cleveland was different in the day but is used today in modern engines because it works. I would never pull the factory restriction plate out of the block and go with someone's backyard solution. Ford did hundreds of hours of testing on this engine in labs that monitored the engine temp with sensors in many places. The flow gave the best results or they would not have added the extra expense. Nobody can show me any type of testing for the so called fix. They just want to sell them. SHOW ME DATA. If I had put the kit in so many suggested it would have changed nothing. These cars use to pull ski boats in hot weather and did not overheat so when everything is where it should be they will work fine.

So if you come in turn your engine off and it blows coolant out I would check the head gaskets and correct thermostat first thing. A no cost check just need a mirror to look at the gaskets and get the correct thermostat. BTW I am using a 192 deg. now with no issues.

So now I can go to shows every weekend. Hurray.

Cheers,

 

[Carolina_Mountain_Mustangs]

A little update. I went to a benefit show for Vetrans yesterday and after the show on the way home I go by the entrance to the Blue Ridge Parkway. For those of you that are not familiar with that it is a road that runs through National Forest from Virginia to Tenn. Goes up the highest peak east of the Rockies which would be Mount Mitchell.

I turned onto the parkway and headed up Mount Pisgah which is 5,722 ft. so a climb from where I am at a little 2,000 ft.. The temp gauge never climbed any the way up or down the opposite side headed into Brevard, NC.

So looks the backwards head gasket was the only issue making this 351 C want to blow the coolant out. I drove nearly 50 miles through the mountains with top down most of the way but it did rain, lol.

This engine, even bored .060", running a non stock cam, headers and performer 2-V heads to 4-V Holley seems to have no heating issues now.

So I will head out farther on trips. Mustangs and Ford show coming up in Maggie Valley also in the mountains in a couple weeks.

Now to get that darn brake booster rebuilt and do the carburetor.

 

[c9zx]

I'm glad all is good with the car. I also envy you being able to cruise the mountains of the Carolinas, they are beautiful. Good for you. Chuck

 

[Carolina_Mountain_Mustangs]

Our local mustang club BRMCoA, Blue Ridge Mustang Club of Asheville had their yearly show at the Biltmore Estate couple years ago. Hard to believe that home and all the land owned by one man. It is still the largest private home in the U.S. and was built before 1900. Has the second elevator ever built serial #2 and still works. Indoor pool, bowling ally just a crazy big place.

We donate all the proceeds from the show each year to Hospice care. We usually are able to give them $15,000 from the show. It is at the local Ford dealership this year.

The pony run on Sunday after the show will be from Asheville to the top of Mount Mitchel on the Blue Ridge Parkway. It is a big PITA to get the permits to do a Pony run on the parkway. You cannot stop anywhere to take any pictures. You have to travel in groups of 10 and start the groups 5 min. apart. It is crazy. We have to put the groups together in parking lot of grocery store near entrance to the parkway. Then go as group to the visitors center to start and can stop for no reason, lol. I will post some pictures of the run coming up on Aug. 19 show is Aug. 18. We have people coming from Tenn. Charlotte, Virginia and S.C. just to do the run.

 

[tony-muscle]

Our local mustang club BRMCoA, Blue Ridge Mustang Club of Asheville had their yearly show at the Biltmore Estate couple years ago. Hard to believe that home and all the land owned by one man. It is still the largest private home in the U.S. and was built before 1900. Has the second elevator ever built serial #2 and still works. Indoor pool, bowling ally just a crazy big place.

We donate all the proceeds from the show each year to Hospice care. We usually are able to give them $15,000 from the show. It is at the local Ford dealership this year.

The pony run on Sunday after the show will be from Asheville to the top of Mount Mitchel on the Blue Ridge Parkway. It is a big PITA to get the permits to do a Pony run on the parkway. You cannot stop anywhere to take any pictures. You have to travel in groups of 10 and start the groups 5 min. apart. It is crazy. We have to put the groups together in parking lot of grocery store near entrance to the parkway. Then go as group to the visitors center to start and can stop for no reason, lol. I will post some pictures of the run coming up on Aug. 19 show is Aug. 18. We have people coming from Tenn. Charlotte, Virginia and S.C. just to do the run.

What about if the car overheats, can you stop?

 

[Carolina_Mountain_Mustangs]

Our local mustang club BRMCoA, Blue Ridge Mustang Club of Asheville had their yearly show at the Biltmore Estate couple years ago. Hard to believe that home and all the land owned by one man. It is still the largest private home in the U.S. and was built before 1900. Has the second elevator ever built serial #2 and still works. Indoor pool, bowling ally just a crazy big place.

We donate all the proceeds from the show each year to Hospice care. We usually are able to give them $15,000 from the show. It is at the local Ford dealership this year.

The pony run on Sunday after the show will be from Asheville to the top of Mount Mitchel on the Blue Ridge Parkway. It is a big PITA to get the permits to do a Pony run on the parkway. You cannot stop anywhere to take any pictures. You have to travel in groups of 10 and start the groups 5 min. apart. It is crazy. We have to put the groups together in parking lot of grocery store near entrance to the parkway. Then go as group to the visitors center to start and can stop for no reason, lol. I will post some pictures of the run coming up on Aug. 19 show is Aug. 18. We have people coming from Tenn. Charlotte, Virginia and S.C. just to do the run.

What about if the car overheats, can you stop?

That would be a breakdown and ok for sure. BTW I finally found the head gaskets you sent. The post man had taken them to the garage and leaned them up against the front door that I never go in. They were fine not in rain. Thanks,

If you get a speeding ticket on the Blue Ridge Parkway you go to Federal court not just local, lol. The Feds take everything so serious.

David

 

[Stanglover]

I know over the last while, there has been much discussed on the subject of 351C thermostats, which are right and which are wrong. The original (RobertShaw) type are the preferred ones, however, what I'm using is the Stant 13469 which is a 195 degree. It does have a sort of 'hat' and is sold as the correct one for the Cleveland 351 C. I also have a couple I bought from NPD and branded as Parts Master. Guess what folks, they're identical, same marking, same tooling draw lines. The number on the NPD part is 22392 and notes it replaces MotoRad 223-192 and labeled 351C, 70-73. ( I have Stant and NPD 180 degree ones as well, just not using them)

Anyway the Stant 195 stat I am currently using without any overheating issues whatsoever even in the 95 Degree temps we have had lately here. My new gauge has never gone above the 190 mark. So, does this really seal off the center hole in the plate? I guess it must and if it does, why pay 25 bucks or more for the fancy one if the 3 dollar one does the job. If it's overheating and you know there is a Cleveland type stat in there, my guess is something else is wrong and it's NOT the stat (unless it's faulty of course). I have no doubt someone will challenge my view-point.

Geoff.

 

[Carolina_Mountain_Mustangs]

I know over the last while, there has been much discussed on the subject of 351C thermostats, which are right and which are wrong. The original (RobertShaw) type are the preferred ones, however, what I'm using is the Stant 13469 which is a 195 degree. It does have a sort of 'hat' and is sold as the correct one for the Cleveland 351 C. I also have a couple I bought from NPD and branded as Parts Master. Guess what folks, they're identical, same marking, same tooling draw lines. The number on the NPD part is 22392 and notes it replaces MotoRad 223-192 and labeled 351C, 70-73. ( I have Stant and NPD 180 degree ones as well, just not using them)

Anyway the Stant 195 stat I am currently using without any overheating issues whatsoever even in the 95 Degree temps we have had lately here. My new gauge has never gone above the 190 mark. So, does this really seal off the center hole in the plate? I guess it must and if it does, why pay 25 bucks or more for the fancy one if the 3 dollar one does the job. If it's overheating and you know there is a Cleveland type stat in there, my guess is something else is wrong and it's NOT the stat (unless it's faulty of course). I have no doubt someone will challenge my view-point.

Geoff.

Geoff,

I totally agree with you. When I did some checking at parts houses they all seem to have ones for the 351 C. The thermostat does not plug off the hole but goes into the hole enough to change the way the coolant flow is. It is better to run a hotter thermostat in hot weather. It keeps the water in the radiator longer to allow better cooling. Sounds backwards but not. If you have a cold thermostat or no thermostat the water just gushes through the radiator and does not get to cool down and eventually heats it to boiling. I see absolutely no reason for pulling the stock baffle out of the block and paying someone for their untested backyard invention. Good radiator, good fan, shroud and a correct thermostat with factory baffle and there should be no overheating. Timing is also a big factor.

D