Anemic 351-C 2V

[KT-69]

73 convertible with a 351-C 2V. This engine is not deserving of being in a mustang. Checked the specs. 73 351-C low compression, smog tune, retarded timing, 2V cam dies around 5K, little cfm 2V carb, restricted exhaust. Maybe putting out 180hp....a dog of a car.

Looking around this appears to be an economical choice just not certain what cam to go it. Anyone used this combo on the street?

AUSFORDPARTs are AUS 2V quench chamber heads (10:1 compression) and a AUS intake manifold to match that mounts a 4lb spread bore carb.

looking for cam to match for all - around street performance, needs a slight addable loop to the idle (got to have it to be a muscle car) yet good low, mid and top end up to 5,500-6,000 rpm range.

Anyone familiar with that manifold. Is it just a 2bl manifold with some machining to accept a 4V carb or is ther more to it than that? Well it pull to 5,500/6,000 rpm like the cast OEM Ford manifold?

Thinking about going with a Ford or Holley 4300 spreadbore 600-650 cfm carb.

 

[will e]

Howdy.

How do you drive the car? Is it a daily driver or a weekend fun car or ?? I imagine while it is short on power your current setup is big on drivability. (smooth idle).

You have a bunch of options available. So what kind of driver do you want to have and how much do you want to spend?

Also, how much of work will you do yourself?

 

[jbojo]

What transmission and rear end and as Will e mentioned the budget? You'll want a cam that will work with everything else. You can put in an intake that flows well but if you have an exhaust restriction you won't see the benefits. Same with a cam, if you have a 2.70 rear but the power band of the cam starts at 3000 or higher rpm you'll never be in the power band. You should probably ask a lot of questions and decide what you want to spend and do your research before buying parts that you won't be happy with. Not trying to discourage you as when I was younger I got whipped by a 289 Mustang coupe and told myself not again. Spent a few years thinking about what I wanted to do before I did mine. Lots of members here have built some super motors so pick their brains for all the info you can.

 

[KT-69]

OK

Over-all budget build using existing or used ebay, swap meet, Rock Auto parts. 90% DIY.

Solid performance weekend warm fair weather driver....cruise to a car show, scoup the city loop in the evening, drive to local golf course ...country club, Friday, Saturday night out downtown.

I want to stick to traditional Ford era correct components mostly. Just an honest basic fun muscle car.

No racing however needs to lay two solid patches of rubber if I want to show off.

300-350 hp, 3 speed FMX w/shift kit, 9" posi 3:1 - 3.25:1 rear end, 1-1.5" mini tub, rolled upper wheel well lips to sport big fat rear meat and deep dish wheels, traction bars, raked a little, slight lumpy idle, good low end response with wide power band up 5,500 rpm maybe 6,000 max. Needs to cruise 75 mph on I-80 at 2,500 rpm max. Needs to run 140 mph at 5,500 - 6,000 rpm.

4V, headers, 10-1 compression, Pertronix, headers, dual exhaust, good tune, desmogged.

15 x 10 rear with 5" BS and 15 x 8" 4.5" BS front, Keystone classic, magnum 500, or slotted mags (polished) Radial TA, Micky Thompson or Cooper raised white letter rubber.

Shelby roll bar, 1" front sway bar, 3/4" rear sway bar, bushed spring perches, 620 springs 1" lower with 1 coil cut to lower in front, 4.5 leafs standard with HD rear shackles to the rear to get ass end up a bit. Hate 71-73 with rear end sag. Basic performance shocks ....Rockauto.

I know to do a 4V Cleveland however the 4V quench heads are getting way to costly these days.

The AUS 2V quench heads are more economical so looking at basic 2V head build. No idea on performance 2V cam as the 2V and 4V heads require different cam/intake exhaust combo's and i have never done performance build based around a 2V quench head.

 

[Luke]

Have you got 10:1 comp now. Or are you just bolting Aus heads on the stock 8:1 bottom end.

 

[jbojo]

Looks like you know what you want.

"Needs to cruise 75 mph on I-80 at 2,500 rpm max. Needs to run 140 mph at 5,500 - 6,000 rpm."

This is based on 275 R60 15 inch rim, you would be turning 2938 rpm at 75 mph so it wouldn't meet the first goal.

At 140 mph 5500 rpm with same tires, this would meet your goal.

You might want to consider an overdrive transmission especially if you will be doing a lot of freeway driving. Gas is cheap now but if it goes to $4 again driving it becomes expensive. If you get an OD (.68 final) rpm drops to 2000 and 3800 rpm's respectively. Just some things to think about.

 

[will e]

I run a 270H and tame it a bit at idle using Rhodes lifters. It's noisy but it works. Next time I swap out cams or build a motor I am going to spend the extra money on a roller cam. A roller cam allows for a more aggressive ramp. This in turn allows for more time for the valve to be open and at it's peak opening without having a lot of overlap at idle. It's the additional overlap at idle that causes the lope and reduced engine vacuum associated to flat tappet cams that are set up to run to 6000+ rpms.

If you want to turn it to 6000rpm you will want to look at upgrading your valve train. Stainless Steal one piece valves with single groove keepers. Roller rockers. Matched valve springs.

Generally an engine that has a cam that can go 6000rpm won't have as good low end torque. A loose converter should be used. I would go with 3.50 gears and an OD. You will want to get the RPM's up as fast as you can.


I like the rest of your build. (well, I wouldn't roll the fenders but it's your car)

You don't mention a couple of items which I would strongly urge. First, get thee a set of sub-frame connectors!. This should be your next purchase and you should do this before any serious engine modifications. I run the global west weld in.

Second, consider some Shelby style under the spring traction bars. These will help avoid wheel hop both accelerating and breaking. Don't go with the cheap slapper bars.

 

[KT-69]

Great advice.....anyone run a 4V carb with a PEM Ford cast 4V manifold matched to 2V heads? I am skeptical that the AUS 4bl 2V manifold is just a that a 2V manifold with a 4lb carb. I know the 4V manifold works good up to 5,500 rpm and used to run them to 6,000. I have a 4bl manifold perhaps i should use it?

 

[Luke]

the Aussie 4 barrel 2v manifold will work perfectly with aussie 2vs. look for 1 off a xb gt they are square bore. Or just buy a performer your not looking at a big hp build

 

[barnett468]

no point in changing the cam unless you change the gearing . . in general, the bigger the cam the numerically higher the gears need to be . . you can use rhoades lifters on a fairly big cam to increase bottom end power but it is a band aid and they are noisy.

if you run 3.25 gears, i would look at a comp xe262h cam but you ain't gonna get 6,000 rpm out of it . . if you want 6000 rpm put arp rod bolts in and forged pistons and 3.73 gears and around a 2400 rpm stall converter.

.

.

 

[73vertproject]

Are you looking for something like this?



If so, you may be interested in my build, which was pretty low budget.

 

[KT-69]

Dead-on 73vertproject.....tell me more. That is a traditional run up to 6K then shift.

Deep gears over 3.25 and 4 speed auto trans swaps are most likely outside of my plan. Not that those aren't desirable improvements but they blow my low budget and move away from my more KISS traditional approach. I have ran 4V 351-CJ's up to 6K rpm momentarily for years many times and never dropped a valve. I question the need for the extra valve train cost on the street. Perhaps if running higher spring tension and lifts beyond the OEM CJ cam grind they would be a must. Or if running 6K plus for extended time.


Head change is mostly to get some decent compression. Compression on 72-73 was way low. They run so much better and more torque at 10:1. Been doing the 4V quench head swap for years. However at $500-$1,000 for a set of old heads it is getting way to costly of an option. Need to find another more economical solution to boosting the compression.

Going 2V heads is new for me looking for solutions that are proven to work. Not a racer but I do like a little seat of the pants G-force and to hear a Cleveland wrapping out to 6K rpm. I need a cam with just enough overlap and induction combo to get me there with a little idle lope that brings that old muscle car era mystic. Just enough cam to get 6K, add some lope yet not completely destroy the bottom end torque and drivability.

End came is put on my head band and aviator mirrored shades crank it up, project the muscle car era image, load up Buffalo Springfield on the stereo system and travel back in time and to look cool while doing it....timeless and priceless.

 

[barnett468]

6k with 3.25 gears and some lope and some bottom end = pocket port the heads, blend the valve guides, back cut the intake valves, 3 way grind on seats, comp xe268h cam with springs, 2600 stall converter, quick fuel 650 annular booster carb . . this should get you around 5700 rpm.

 

[KT-69]

OK that is costly I am looking at 3 angle valve and seats, polish the chambers. and shave .030" off the heads to raise the compression. Stainless valves, xe268 or Crane Energizer cam .539 lift and .278 adv dur. cam. Have to get the compression up from the anemic 8.6 prior to adding any cam overlap or it will bleed even more compression off.

So taking .030" off the heads I was told I could go with stock 4V rocker arms with a shim under to compensate for taking .030" off. Stock springs and ARP bolts. Call it good. Not real clear why the shims are needed or how removing .030" will effect the rest of the drive train.

 

[Mister 4x4]

I went a little different with mine, but initially worked off Doc's (73vertproject) cam specs. The engine hasn't been properly taken out and run for any kind of performance determination yet, but I can honestly say it's got the most responsive throttle action of anything I've ever seen (not that I've been exposed to a great deal of performance engines, either). I ran the below list by my machinist (also a performance engine builder with his own engine dyno) and he seemed really excited about the things I'd come up with.

Also, according to CompCams' CamQuest utility, the below listed cam with the other things added show an estimated 400hp

• .060" bore KB Hypereutectic flat tops (9.5:1)
  
• CNC Balanced & Bluprinted w/3-angle & hardened seats
  
• ARP head bolts
  
• CompCams 32-421-8 (Hyd. Roller Cam, 270/270 @ .566" lift, 110 lobe, 1800-5000rpm range - comes with springs, seals, etc.)
  
• CompCams Hi-Energy Roller Lifters, Push Rods, Full Roller Timing Gears/Chain
  
• CompCams Hi-Energy aluminum roller rockers, 1.73 ratio, 7/16" stud mount
  
• Crane Cams 7/16" rocker studs
  
• Canton Windage Tray
  
• Edelbrock Performer Intake
  
• Edelbrock Performer 1406 (600cfm) carb *
  
• Duraspark ignition/distributor w/NPD conversion harness
  
• Accel Super Coil
  
• Hooker Competition ceramic coated headers
  
• Pypes 2.5" stainless exhaust w/X-pipe
  
• AOD transmission
  
• Lakewood traction bars (came with the car)
  
• Global West subframe connectors
  
• 3.00:1 9-inch rear end
  
• 5-spring leaf pack
  
• 15x8 & 15x10 Cragar S/S
  
• 245/60R15 & 295/50R15 Cooper Cobra GT
  

* soon to be replaced with Edelbrock E-Street fuel injection - just waiting for a stretch of nice weather

It sounds like you're wanting something similar to mine, but less expensive and using Ford parts. I ain't gonna lie - that's an $8,000+ engine (machine work and parts - assembled by me - $11,000 if you add-in the Edelbrock E-Street FI), and I got everything from Summit Racing.

The 15x10 Cragars have 4 1/4" backspacing, which cause the 295s to poke out of the fenders a little more than I wanted, and I don't know that Cragars with 5" b.s. can be had. I'm also adding 1" shackles to hopefully get a little more wheel clearance before I put it on the road.

Picture is in the sig, and there are lots more to see in the Facebook link.

Hope this helps.

 

[barnett468]

OK that is costly I am looking at 3 angle valve and seats, polish the chambers. and shave .030" off the heads to raise the compression. Stainless valves, xe268 or Crane Energizer cam .539 lift and .278 adv dur. cam. Have to get the compression up from the anemic 8.6 prior to adding any cam overlap or it will bleed even more compression off.

So taking .030" off the heads I was told I could go with stock 4V rocker arms with a shim under to compensate for taking .030" off. Stock springs and ARP bolts. Call it good. Not real clear why the shims are needed or how removing .030" will effect the rest of the drive train.

why are you going to run stock springs with a steep ramp cam?

i would consider running lash caps with stainless valves and have the stem height corrected for their thickness when the valve job is done.

you can run shorter push rods.

.

 

[KT-69]

Thanks Mister 4x4 really appreciate the cam, wheel and tire information an confirmation on throttle response. That is very impressive list of engine components. Your correct I am looking to add some go with a very limited budget this year. The performance currently is so dismal by my standards I am ashamed to drive it. Plan is to give this convertible Stang a hole new personality, look and feel with minimum expense while keeping it close to numbers matching. Then sell it in a year or two and upgrade to an earlier Stang with a closed chamber 351-C 4V, power windows and AC.

Found Cragar Street Pro or Pacer R-windows / Cooper tire combo for very good price online. I will either add the black trim ring to the wheels to mimic the 73 slotted mags look. They have more offset in the 4.5-5" range. Combined with upper fender lip roll and 1-1.5" mini tub on the rear fender wells I think they will clear. I already have a new set 4.5 rear leafs and a set of HD shackles from a recent 69 Stang project. Plan to fab my own traction bars and sub frame connectors.

As for valve springs I will most likely go with whatever comes with the cam kit. And will check out the cost of shortening the Manley SS valves rather than adding the Jegs .030" shims under the rocker arms (however the shims are cheap less than $20 for a set). Have the OEM valve guides checked and bushed if needed. I can not afford a roller cam so will have to settle for a good hyd flat tappet grind.

I got a 4V cast OEM 4V intake (spreadbore) for $35 on eBay and I am searching for a spread bore 650 cfm Holley annular discharge carb to rebuild for it. Seems the 4V intake will work OK with the 2V heads.

I have not seen much information or feedback for 2V head Hyd flat tappet cams (1,800 - 5,500 rpm range). I always like the old 351-CJ cam for all around performance but Ford designed it specifically for the 4V heads. Not sure how it would work with the 2V heads.

 

[Mister 4x4]

If you go with 15x10s w/5" backspacing, you can easily run 295s without needing to mini-tub or roll the lips - having the sturdier rear springs in a must, and boosting the back end with some slightly longer shackles (not like they did in the '70s ) I think is the way to go.

Austin Vert's '73 'vert has that set-up with 15x10 Magnum 500s and 295/50R15 Mastercraft Avengers - and it looks freaken SWEET! ::thumb::

http://www.7173mustangs.com/thread-sunday-afternoon-cruise-glamour-shoot

Another member, mezapu has a similar set-up with 15x10 rims having 5.5" backspacing, and it all tucks in even nicer.

Hope that helps as well.

 

[KT-69]

No tub sounds good sounds worth a try. Austin's Stang has look nailed...I like yours as well reminds a little of my bitch'n scream'n 351-CJ 4V 72 Mach back in the hayday of the muscle car era (photo attached). Yes that is me been so long ago I can not remember wheel sizes. I loved those side pipes but girls did not ....leg burn exiting.