Camshaft by Chuck & Mike

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Hey that’s good to hear that Clevite says that. Wondering why George was saying to do this? I know he had a section about setting up a race engine but I certainly am not trying to do that.

 
I got that from George Pence. He says that the boss 351 had them and they double the amount of oil that gets to the connecting rods.
It doesn't matter where the info came from. You still need  a good oil wedge to form and a full width bearing on the thrust side on a street engine. Fully grooved bearings interfere with the oil wedge formation plus the amount of bearing surface is reduced by around 20%. Not a great idea for a street engine. Nascar engines used fully grooved bearings for a while and they rebuilt them after every race. You will not be running at 7000 rpm for 300 miles at a time. You need to build an engine for a particular app, and your app should not use fully grooved bearings.

.
Just to clarify, I pointed out to cam bearings that are grooved on the OD.
Ya I know. I got the fully grooved main bearing info from George P.

 
Everyone I have ever talked to said to absolutely not use a high volume oil pump on a Cleveland. Just an FYI. This includes several members on this site as well as two well know local engine builders that specialize in Fords and especially Clevelands
Well , not trying to cause any trouble here but here is another opinion from George Reid on cleveland oiling system

He mentioned use of high volume oil pump on few occasions 

https://www.cartechbooks.com/techtips/351-cleveland-lubrication/

Specifically:

This problem is corrected when you limit oil flow to cam bearings and lifters and divert more of it to main and rod journals where it is needed most. While you’re at it, you need to increase volume and pressure to some degree with a high-volume oil pump and some adjustment to the pressure relief valve as necessary.

And here

In your Cleveland engine building plan, always use a high-volume oil pump and perform a detailed blueprinting before installation. Check rotor-side clearances and the pressure relief valve for proper operation. If you want more pressure, add shims to increase pressure. However, be very careful about this because you don’t want too much pressure. You want a maximum of 10 psi per 1,000 rpm.

And this supports the theory of not needing restrictors unless turning high rpm

From a practical standpoint, there’s really nothing wrong with the Cleveland oiling system. It makes good use of oil galleys with uniform flow to cam bearings, main and rod journals, lifters, and valvetrain. Where it falls short is in uniform distribution to these locations at high RPM.

.....

The problem with this approach is oil starvation to main and rod bearing journals at high RPM. Main and rod bearings share oil with the lifter galleys. Traditionally, mains and rods always had an exclusive oil galley. Starvation really isn’t a fair way to put it, however, because high-performance street Clevelands have adequate oil supply to all critical points throughout the engine proving Ford engineers did their job well. However, when you spin a Cleveland to high RPM (above 6,000), oil starvation exists at main and rod journals mostly.

However I would agree that restrictors are cheap and good insurance to keep main and rod journals in good working order. I will be getting them for my engine as well

Cheers

Alex

 
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I am in the process of building my 408 Cleveland. My engine builder said that restrictors are not necessary unless you will be turning over 6000 rpm on a regular basis. 

He said the best thing to do is to go with high flow oil pump for car that will stay below 6k

I also bought crower cam saver lifters. They got really good reviews  and hopefully they will assist in better cam lubrication.

Alex
Definitely not turning that my rpms regularly but I my engine builder said he found some badly worn bearings, so it may be from the oiling problem. Not sure but it’s pretty cheap insurance to have it done.

I’ll have to check out those lifters, haven’t heard of those. 

Thanks for all the info, I appreciate it!
Anytime  , according to crower these lifters give 25% more oil to the cam lobes than traditional lifters helping to reduce oil starvation 

Alex

 
Everyone I have ever talked to said to absolutely not use a high volume oil pump on a Cleveland. Just an FYI. This includes several members on this site as well as two well know local engine builders that specialize in Fords and especially Clevelands
Well , not trying to cause any trouble here but since we are talking about George Reid

Here is his opinion on cleveland oiling system

He mentioned use of high volume oil pump on few occasions 

https://www.cartechbooks.com/techtips/351-cleveland-lubrication/

Specifically:

This problem is corrected when you limit oil flow to cam bearings and lifters and divert more of it to main and rod journals where it is needed most. While you’re at it, you need to increase volume and pressure to some degree with a high-volume oil pump and some adjustment to the pressure relief valve as necessary.

And here

In your Cleveland engine building plan, always use a high-volume oil pump and perform a detailed blueprinting before installation. Check rotor-side clearances and the pressure relief valve for proper operation. If you want more pressure, add shims to increase pressure. However, be very careful about this because you don’t want too much pressure. You want a maximum of 10 psi per 1,000 rpm.

And this supports the theory of not needing restrictors unless turning high rpm

The problem with this approach is oil starvation to main and rod bearing journals at high RPM. Main and rod bearings share oil with the lifter galleys. Traditionally, mains and rods always had an exclusive oil galley. Starvation really isn’t a fair way to put it, however, because high-performance street Clevelands have adequate oil supply to all critical points throughout the engine proving Ford engineers did their job well. However, when you spin a Cleveland to high RPM (above 6,000), oil starvation exists at main and rod journals mostly.

However I would agree that restrictors are cheap and good insurance to keep main and rod journals in good working order. I will be getting them for my engine as well

Cheers

Alex
Hey, no problems Alex. I’m still learning about this and hopefully others will get something out of this too. I’m actually talking about George Pence, but I think they are both very well known in the 351 world. 

I had read that the George I’m talking about felt the about the high volume pump, but has changed his mind about it. He says the std volume pump is plenty, because with the high volume pump there is to much cavitation. And ya wow, the George you’re talking about just did that article in 2014, so pretty recently. Hmmmm, very interesting!

I am surprised that there are so many different ways to deal with this oiling issue. I just think something needs to be done, one way or another to help prevent a bearing failure.

Like I said before I don’t have any plans to race my car, it’s a street car, but sure would like it to be bullit proof as possible.

 
Everyone I have ever talked to said to absolutely not use a high volume oil pump on a Cleveland. Just an FYI. This includes several members on this site as well as two well know local engine builders that specialize in Fords and especially Clevelands
Well , not trying to cause any trouble here but since we are talking about George Reid

Here is his opinion on cleveland oiling system

He mentioned use of high volume oil pump on few occasions 

https://www.cartechbooks.com/techtips/351-cleveland-lubrication/

Specifically:

This problem is corrected when you limit oil flow to cam bearings and lifters and divert more of it to main and rod journals where it is needed most. While you’re at it, you need to increase volume and pressure to some degree with a high-volume oil pump and some adjustment to the pressure relief valve as necessary.

And here

In your Cleveland engine building plan, always use a high-volume oil pump and perform a detailed blueprinting before installation. Check rotor-side clearances and the pressure relief valve for proper operation. If you want more pressure, add shims to increase pressure. However, be very careful about this because you don’t want too much pressure. You want a maximum of 10 psi per 1,000 rpm.

And this supports the theory of not needing restrictors unless turning high rpm

The problem with this approach is oil starvation to main and rod bearing journals at high RPM. Main and rod bearings share oil with the lifter galleys. Traditionally, mains and rods always had an exclusive oil galley. Starvation really isn’t a fair way to put it, however, because high-performance street Clevelands have adequate oil supply to all critical points throughout the engine proving Ford engineers did their job well. However, when you spin a Cleveland to high RPM (above 6,000), oil starvation exists at main and rod journals mostly.

However I would agree that restrictors are cheap and good insurance to keep main and rod journals in good working order. I will be getting them for my engine as well

Cheers

Alex
Hey, no problems Alex. I’m still learning about this and hopefully others will get something out of this too. I’m actually talking about George Pence, but I think they are both very well known in the 351 world. 

I had read that the George I’m talking about felt the about the high volume pump, but has changed his mind about it. He says the std volume pump is plenty, because with the high volume pump there is to much cavitation. And ya wow, the George you’re talking about just did that article in 2014, so pretty recently. Hmmmm, very interesting!

I am surprised that there are so many different ways to deal with this oiling issue. I just think something needs to be done, one way or another to help prevent a bearing failure.

Like I said before I don’t have any plans to race my car, it’s a street car, but sure would like it to be bullit proof as possible.
Yes, I realized after I wrote that you were talking about George Pence.

Anyways, its just another opinion and btw what i quoted above was published in  George Reid's book "Ford 351 Cleveland Engines: How to Build for Max Performance"

https://www.cartechbooks.com/ford-351-cleveland-engines-how-to-build-for-max-performance.html

Alex

 
Well , not trying to cause any trouble here but since we are talking about George Reid

Here is his opinion on cleveland oiling system

He mentioned use of high volume oil pump on few occasions 

https://www.cartechbooks.com/techtips/351-cleveland-lubrication/

Specifically:

This problem is corrected when you limit oil flow to cam bearings and lifters and divert more of it to main and rod journals where it is needed most. While you’re at it, you need to increase volume and pressure to some degree with a high-volume oil pump and some adjustment to the pressure relief valve as necessary.

And here

In your Cleveland engine building plan, always use a high-volume oil pump and perform a detailed blueprinting before installation. Check rotor-side clearances and the pressure relief valve for proper operation. If you want more pressure, add shims to increase pressure. However, be very careful about this because you don’t want too much pressure. You want a maximum of 10 psi per 1,000 rpm.

And this supports the theory of not needing restrictors unless turning high rpm

The problem with this approach is oil starvation to main and rod bearing journals at high RPM. Main and rod bearings share oil with the lifter galleys. Traditionally, mains and rods always had an exclusive oil galley. Starvation really isn’t a fair way to put it, however, because high-performance street Clevelands have adequate oil supply to all critical points throughout the engine proving Ford engineers did their job well. However, when you spin a Cleveland to high RPM (above 6,000), oil starvation exists at main and rod journals mostly.

However I would agree that restrictors are cheap and good insurance to keep main and rod journals in good working order. I will be getting them for my engine as well

Cheers

Alex
Hey, no problems Alex. I’m still learning about this and hopefully others will get something out of this too. I’m actually talking about George Pence, but I think they are both very well known in the 351 world. 

I had read that the George I’m talking about felt the about the high volume pump, but has changed his mind about it. He says the std volume pump is plenty, because with the high volume pump there is to much cavitation. And ya wow, the George you’re talking about just did that article in 2014, so pretty recently. Hmmmm, very interesting!

I am surprised that there are so many different ways to deal with this oiling issue. I just think something needs to be done, one way or another to help prevent a bearing failure.

Like I said before I don’t have any plans to race my car, it’s a street car, but sure would like it to be bullit proof as possible.
Yes, I realized after I wrote that you were talking about George Pence.

Anyways, its just another opinion and btw what i quoted above was published in  George Reid's book "Ford 351 Cleveland Engines: How to Build for Max Performance"

https://www.cartechbooks.com/ford-351-cleveland-engines-how-to-build-for-max-performance.html

Alex
Yes I saw that was very recent. I just sent an email to Pence, hopefully I had the right address. I'll let you know if I hear back from him.

 
Never and always are words that can lead to problems. Re: HV oil pumps, https://www.melling.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/high-volume-pumps.pdf Re: head gaskets, https://www.cometic.com/c-1280258-automotive-domestic-mls-head-gaskets.html   I've used thin head gaskets with smaller bore diameters to tweak compression upwards on several engines. Chuck
Ok but I’m still rather confused about what to do. HV or STD.?

I kinda thought that was ok to do, but I’m sure no expert.

 
Never and always are words that can lead to problems. Re: HV oil pumps, https://www.melling.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/high-volume-pumps.pdf Re: head gaskets, https://www.cometic.com/c-1280258-automotive-domestic-mls-head-gaskets.html   I've used thin head gaskets with smaller bore diameters to tweak compression upwards on several engines. Chuck
Ok but I’m still rather confused about what to do. HV or STD.?

I kinda thought that was ok to do, but I’m sure no expert.

Well, I am going hv in my new engine since I already have it running in my current 351c 2v engine.

Its 60 over and it has been running great for few years now. My idle pressure with hot engine running at 750 rpm is 30psi. Cold it runs about 70 psi at 1100 rpm high idle.

And if I read correctly article from melling that c9zx included it suggest to use stock pump for stock cars turning up to 4500 rpm. Mine will be doing over 5k on occasion so I choose to go HV

 
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Never and always are words that can lead to problems. Re: HV oil pumps, https://www.melling.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/high-volume-pumps.pdf Re: head gaskets, https://www.cometic.com/c-1280258-automotive-domestic-mls-head-gaskets.html   I've used thin head gaskets with smaller bore diameters to tweak compression upwards on several engines. Chuck
Ok but I’m still rather confused about what to do. HV or STD.?

I kinda thought that was ok to do, but I’m sure no expert.

Well, I am going hv in my new engine since I already have it running in my current 351c 2v engine.

Its 60 over and it has been running great for few years now. My idle pressure with hot engine running at 750 rpm is 30psi. Cold it runs about 70 psi at 1100 rpm high idle.

And if I read correctly article from melling that c9zx included it suggest to use stock pump for stock cars turning up to 4500 rpm. Mine will be doing over 5k on occasion so I choose to go HV
Ya it sure sounds like it. Can’t wait to hear what my engine builder says about it.

 
Never and always are words that can lead to problems. Re: HV oil pumps, https://www.melling.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/high-volume-pumps.pdf Re: head gaskets, https://www.cometic.com/c-1280258-automotive-domestic-mls-head-gaskets.html   I've used thin head gaskets with smaller bore diameters to tweak compression upwards on several engines. Chuck
I guess I should have been more specific about my point about the head gaskets, which is, never use them to change compression if you exceed around .043" in head gasket thickness. The ideal thickness to use in most typical street apps where closed chamber heads are used is .035" thick. If someone wants to use .090" thick gaskets to reduce compression on a closed chamber head engine, it is the wrong way to do it because it completely defeats the point of the closed chamber head. That is simple engine building 101.

The correct way to build an engine is to build it with parts that are designed to work together to get the optimum performance out of it and determine the compression needed before it is built instead of trying to change it afterwards for whatever reason, and it is always best to err on the side of caution.

.

 
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So I still need to talk the machine shop that’s doing my engine. I guess they do some work for Roush and a lot of Ford stuff, so I want to get there recommendations on this stuff too.

As far as the liter bore bushings, I will probably just get the lifters that restrict the oil flow or the push rods that do. I guess the bushings may be overkill.

Going with a Flat tappet cam from Bullet. I’m going to give them a call and see what they recommend. I keep hearing good things about them.

 
So I still need to talk the machine shop that’s doing my engine. I guess they do some work for Roush and a lot of Ford stuff, so I want to get there recommendations on this stuff too.

As far as the liter bore bushings, I will probably just get the lifters that restrict the oil flow or the push rods that do. I guess the bushings may be overkill.

Going with a Flat tappet cam from Bullet. I’m going to give them a call and see what they recommend. I keep hearing  good things about them.
Ok, bullet cams uses lobes designed by legendry cam designer harold berkshire. The person a bullet that makes cam recommendadtions is very knowledgeable and you will get  decent cam from him, however, I would also call (do not email) chris straub. Chris is one of the premier cam designers in the us and has designed cams for national championship winning boats and class  winning drag cars etc. He also designed the cam for mr morels (morel lifters) drag car and won a bet against jon kaase that morels engine would make more than 800 h and jon had to wear chris straubs t shirt for loosing the bet. Chris also sometimes uses lobes from bullet cams, andwhen you talk to bullet, you can tell them you are also going to talk to chris straub and they will probably tell you just to just have him design the cam anyway.

423-391-7774

https://straubtechnologies.com/about-us/

 
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So I finally got a camshaft picked out! Going with a Mike Jones cam, specs are:

Hydraulic Flat Tappet

Adv. Duration    280/288

Duration @ .50  224/232

Lift w 1.73 Ratio 570/577

LSA  110

ICL   106

This should be a nice healthy stret cam and I can’t wait to get it done. Mike said that I should have about 14” of vacuum, so I should have no problems with power assisted stuff. Really getting excited about having my car all rebuilt. I have all of my engine and trans components picked out and some of it is already showing up at the shop. The only bummer is that they get to open all the cool new stuff that I bought and I don’t, lol.

Thanks again to all of you that have been giving me some very important and great advice! I really do appreciate it. :)

 
Just make sure you have decent compression if it is going in a 351 ci engine, otherwise your idle vacuum will be marginal.

 
Just make sure you have decent compression if it is going in a 351 ci engine, otherwise your idle vacuum will be marginal.
9.8-10:1
That should work with iron heads. That cam needs at least 3.25 gears to be useful, and if you have an auto trans it needs at least an 1800 rpm stall converter.

 
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