Camshaft by Chuck & Mike

[barnett468]

So this is the camshaft I’m thinking about. George says he believes this is the best all around performance hydraulic flat tappet street cam.

Bullet Camshafts

Adv. duration 277/287

Duration @ .50 lift 228/235

Gross valve lift @1.73 rocker arm .580/.585

ICL 111*

LSA 114*

Seated overlap 54*

This cam is for my 72 Q code 351 .30 over w/4v 10:1 quench heads, flat top forged pistons, Blue Thunder intake, Quick Fuel 735 HS carb w/vacuum secondaries, stock manifolds, c6 trans & 3.50 trutrac rear gear. This car is driven for go and show. Not a daily driver so I want to be more on the performance side, but I do want it to have good street manners also. So in other words, I want it all! Lol

George penned this for a very similar build to mine, so it should be pretty close. He calls it the Bullet Cobra Jet Cam.

Any thoughts about it would be appreciated. I’m still learning about the Cleveland and open to suggestions.

I’m actually thinking about something close to this grind for a hydraulic roller cam.

George has built a lot of very steerable engines and I respect his opinions. However, I see no reason to use a 114 LSA. I think he has other optional specs for what he currently recommends for a street engine. Chuck

So Chuck you’re saying that there is to much LSA? Would really like to hear your recommendation.

I got this from the Pantera web site and he posted this about August of this year. That’s why I figured it was pretty up to date.

114 lsa is perfectly fine for some apps. It all depends on the engine and trans and gears and type of performance desired and the other aspects of the cam etc.

exactly what heads do you have?

do you have a high stall converter?

do you want a smooth idle or do you want it to have a little lope?

do you often drive long distances at 65 mph or more?

do you want signal light to signal light performance?

.

.

 

[barnett468]

George has built a lot of very steerable engines and I respect his opinions. However, I see no reason to use a 114 LSA. I think he has other optional specs for what he currently recommends for a street engine. Chuck

So Chuck you’re saying that there is to much LSA? Would really like to hear your recommendation.

I got this from the Pantera web site and he posted this about August of this year. That’s why I figured it was pretty up to date.

114 lsa is perfectly fine for some apps. It all depends on the engine and trans and gears and type of performance desired and the other aspects of the cam etc.

exactly what heads do you have?

do you have a high stall converter?

do you want a smooth idle or do you want it to have a little lope?

do you often drive long distances at 65 mph or more?

do you want signal light to signal light performance?

do you want it to have strong bottom end or do you want to be able to rev it 6000 rpm?

Are you going to keep the stock exhaust manifolds?

what mufflers do you have?

.

 

[Bentworker]

Thanks bentworker, I was looking at some Howard’s cams too. I’m definitely getting new spring’s and thanks for the info.

What rockers did you go with?

Mystery 12 year old 1.732:1 roller rockers.

I ran these locators with the Alex's beehive springs.  PAC PAC-S113. Turned out pretty clean and I got the spring pressure down to where my lifters and cam have some sort of chance of longevity.

 

[jpaz]

So Chuck you’re saying that there is to much LSA? Would really like to hear your recommendation.

I got this from the Pantera web site and he posted this about August of this year. That’s why I figured it was pretty up to date.

114 lsa is perfectly fine for some apps. It all depends on the engine and trans and gears and type of performance desired and the other aspects of the cam etc.

exactly what heads do you have?  I have 71 closed chamber heads. 66cc 10:1 trying to keep dynamic at 7.7:1and having them redone with normal good stuff

do you have a high stall converter? Yes

do you want a smooth idle or do you want it to have a little lope? Some lope

do you often drive long distances at 65 mph or more? Not often, but I do want to be able to do some short trips.

do you want signal light to signal light performance? Yes, I’m doing more of this than the freeway.

do you want it to have strong bottom end or do you want to be able to rev it 6000 rpm? Well it should do both

Are you going to keep the stock exhaust manifolds?  This is a great question. I have kept the stock ones on. Didn’t want to deal with the extra heat and less ground clearance, but it would probably help with some hp to change 

what mufflers do you have? I have sonic turbos. I also have the stock h pipe 

Thanks Barnett!

.

 

[Hemikiller]

I'd run with George's recommendation. The 351C-4V engine is unique in how the camshaft needs to be spec'd out. Screw with the LSA and you're going to affect the low-end performance and tractability. He's adamant about the 114 LSA. You're going to have a lope with his specs, so I'd let it be.Nobody has dropped more $$$$ and time into getting the 4V Cleveland to work on the street than the Pantera guys.

If you want a very direct answer, you can email him with what you're running and he'll help you out. I've run the A341 Motorsport cam (214/224, .510/.536) that he talks about in his articles, and it behaved just as described. It also gave up the ghost exactly where he said it would. That's a very good street cam, but it's done at 5600. I tried everything I could to get that cam to rev higher, but it just won't.

 

[jpaz]

I'd run with George's recommendation. The 351C-4V engine is unique in how the camshaft needs to be spec'd out. Screw with the LSA and you're going to affect the low-end performance and tractability. He's adamant about the 114 LSA. You're going to have a lope with his specs, so I'd let it be.Nobody has dropped more $$$$ and time into getting the 4V Cleveland to work on the street than the Pantera guys.

If you want a very direct answer, you can email him with what you're running and he'll help you out. I've run the A341 Motorsport cam (214/224, .510/.536) that he talks about in his articles, and it behaved just as described. It also gave up the ghost exactly where he said it would. That's a very good street cam, but it's done at 5600. I tried everything I could to get that cam to rev higher, but it just won't.

Thanks hemikiller, I have read a lot of his stuff and he is very adamant about the 114 LSA. It’s got some pretty good lift too, but not to much. The way it sounds it will do everything he says and it’s just what I’m looking for. And it’s good to know that someone tried one of his specs and to hear what it did. Thanks again.

I still waiting to hear back from machine shop and get my engine specs finalized, but I’m sure they be able to get me to normal, other than the overbore, so I can run pump gas. 

Maybe I will email him once I get my engine measurements confirmed. Be curious to see what he says.

 

[barnett468]

114 lsa is perfectly fine for some apps. It all depends on the engine and trans and gears and type of performance desired and the other aspects of the cam etc.

exactly what heads do you have?  I have 71 closed chamber heads. 66cc 10:1 trying to keep dynamic at 7.7:1and having them redone with normal good stuff

do you have a high stall converter? Yes

do you want a smooth idle or do you want it to have a little lope? Some lope

do you often drive long distances at 65 mph or more? Not often, but I do want to be able to do some short trips.

do you want signal light to signal light performance? Yes, I’m doing more of this than the freeway.

do you want it to have strong bottom end or do you want to be able to rev it 6000 rpm? Well it should do both

Are you going to keep the stock exhaust manifolds?  This is a great question. I have kept the stock ones on. Didn’t want to deal with the extra heat and less ground clearance, but it would probably help with some hp to change 

what mufflers do you have? I have sonic turbos. I also have the stock h pipe 

Thanks Barnett!

.

There is no cam that will give you strong bottom end and rev to 6k. It simply does not work that way, but your 3.50 gears will help the low end.

You will gain quite a bit of power in mid and top end with headers but you don't need to run the long ones. Midy headers will still outperform the stock manifolds by a mile. Another option is BOSS 351 manifolds. The exits are around 1/4" larger than stock 4v manifolds but they are rare and probably pricey and won't give you a big gain for the buck because they still won't flow as well as headers and won't really evacuate the cylinders nearly as well as regular headers can.

If you don't have pistons yet, I would get some custom made that mirror the quench pad on the heads. Race Tech and Diamond and some other companies make them. I typically run between from .035" to .041" of squish clearance.

 

[jpaz]

There is no cam that will give you strong bottom end and rev to 6k. It simply does not work that way, but your 3.50 gears will help the low end.

You will gain quite a bit of power in mid and top end with headers but you don't need to run the long ones. Midy headers will still outperform the stock manifolds by a mile. Another option is BOSS 351 manifolds. The exits are around 1/4" larger than stock 4v manifolds but they are rare and probably pricey and won't give you a big gain for the buck because they still won't flow as well as headers and won't really evacuate the cylinders nearly as well as regular headers can.

If you don't have pistons yet, I would get some custom made that mirror the quench pad on the heads. Race Tech and Diamond and some other companies make them. I typically run between from .035" to .041" of squish clearance.

Hey I know I can’t have it both ways.

I’m thinking about running headers.

Not sure about pistons yet, still waiting to hear back from machine shop.

Thanks again for the info.

 

[barnett468]

There is no cam that will give you strong bottom end and rev to 6k. It simply does not work that way, but your 3.50 gears will help the low end.

You will gain quite a bit of power in mid and top end with headers but you don't need to run the long ones. Midy headers will still outperform the stock manifolds by a mile. Another option is BOSS 351 manifolds. The exits are around 1/4" larger than stock 4v manifolds but they are rare and probably pricey and won't give you a big gain for the buck because they still won't flow as well as headers and won't really evacuate the cylinders nearly as well as regular headers can.

If you don't have pistons yet, I would get some custom made that mirror the quench pad on the heads. Race Tech and Diamond and some other companies make them. I typically run between from .035" to .041" of squish clearance.

Hey I know I can’t have it both ways.

I’m thinking about running headers.

Not sure about pistons yet, still waiting to hear back from machine shop.

Thanks again for the info.

Your engine will also have less potential to run hot if you run headers.

You will need pistons with around 15 - 16 cc's and there are no pre-made aftermarket pistons that will have that and mirror the quench pad on the head.

.

 

[jpaz]

I’ll probably go with the hooker competition with a coating on them.

I’m thinking about getting Ross pistons if mine are crap.

 

[barnett468]

I’ll probably go with the hooker competition with a coating on them.

I’m thinking about getting Ross pistons if mine are crap.

those headers are crap, or at least they used to be.

custom ross pistons might cost a bit more than the race tech's.

i would also run around 10" of straight pipe the same size as the header flange.

this is what a collector does.

 

[jpaz]

Thanks for all the info. I just heard the hookers fit pretty good. Not sold on them.

 

[mach71351c]

Check out  Ford powertrain application headers. Installed a set on my brothers 70 Boss 302. The fit was perfect. Bought a set for my project.

 

[jpaz]

Check out  Ford powertrain application headers. Installed a set on my brothers 70 Boss 302. The fit was perfect. Bought a set for my project.

Those look really nice. I’ll have to check them out, thanks!

 

[barnett468]

Check out  Ford powertrain application headers. Installed a set on my brothers 70 Boss 302. The fit was perfect. Bought a set for my project.

Those look really nice. I’ll have to check them out, thanks!

They are xlnt headers but are a bit pricey.

 

[jpaz]

Ya but they all are, lol

What do you recommend?

 

[Bentworker]

If short headers are an option be sure to look at Sanderson.

I have a set on my car and the fit was really good.

https://www.sandersonheaders.com/sanderson-fc4-header-set-for-ford-351c-351m-400m-mustang.html?category_id=36

 

[c9zx]

So this is the camshaft I’m thinking about. George says he believes this is the best all around performance hydraulic flat tappet street cam.

Bullet Camshafts

Adv. duration 277/287

Duration @ .50 lift 228/235

Gross valve lift @1.73 rocker arm .580/.585

ICL 111*

LSA 114*

Seated overlap 54*

This cam is for my 72 Q code 351 .30 over w/4v 10:1 quench heads, flat top forged pistons, Blue Thunder intake, Quick Fuel 735 HS carb w/vacuum secondaries, stock manifolds, c6 trans & 3.50 trutrac rear gear. This car is driven for go and show. Not a daily driver so I want to be more on the performance side, but I do want it to have good street manners also. So in other words, I want it all! Lol

George penned this for a very similar build to mine, so it should be pretty close. He calls it the Bullet Cobra Jet Cam.

Any thoughts about it would be appreciated. I’m still learning about the Cleveland and open to suggestions.

I’m actually thinking about something close to this grind for a hydraulic roller cam.

George has built a lot of very steerable engines and I respect his opinions. However, I see no reason to use a 114 LSA. I think he has other optional specs for what he currently recommends for a street engine. Chuck

So Chuck you’re saying that there is to much LSA? Would really like to hear your recommendation.

I got this from the Pantera web site and he posted this about August of this year. That’s why I figured it was pretty up to date.

I lifted this from the Pantera site, written by George. "I've revised the Cobra Jet camshaft lobe centerlines, setting them at 105°/115°. This has the effect of narrowing the lobe centerline separation angles to 110°, and timing the camshafts 5° advanced. That's fairly standard camshaft timing for this day and age. Be assured I haven't done anything strange or wonky. Thus reconfigured the intake valve closes at 60° ABDC, which is 10° to 16° earlier depending upon which camshaft timing you are comparing it to. The purpose behind this change is to build good dynamic compression with lower static compression. Narrowing the lobe centerline separation angle increased overlap, which is now 60°. This is very close to the same overlap as the original Boss 351; its not excessive but you wouldn't want any more than that for a street engine. The overlap period is now centered very well around top dead center, and it is within the dwell period at TDC. This serves to minimize the effect overlap has upon the engine's low rpm performance and drivability. The exhaust valve opens early enough to encourage high rpm performance even with a quietly muffled exhaust system. The intake valve begins opening 10° to 16° earlier and reaches full open 10° to 16° earlier, this makes more horsepower. Thus the revised Cobra Jet camshaft has all the benefits of an aftermarket narrow LSA camshaft without any of the typical drawbacks. "

His build is likely not exactly your build so the cam specs may vary. You should put some effort into getting a reasonable static and dynamic compression ratios. A lot depends on what your expectations are for the engine/car. George will respond to emails/PM if you write to him for advice on your specific build. Good luck on the build. Chuck

 

[jpaz]

George has built a lot of very steerable engines and I respect his opinions. However, I see no reason to use a 114 LSA. I think he has other optional specs for what he currently recommends for a street engine. Chuck

So Chuck you’re saying that there is to much LSA? Would really like to hear your recommendation.

I got this from the Pantera web site and he posted this about August of this year. That’s why I figured it was pretty up to date.

I lifted this from the Pantera site, written by George. "I've revised the Cobra Jet camshaft lobe centerlines, setting them at 105°/115°. This has the effect of narrowing the lobe centerline separation angles to 110°, and timing the camshafts 5° advanced. That's fairly standard camshaft timing for this day and age. Be assured I haven't done anything strange or wonky. Thus reconfigured the intake valve closes at 60° ABDC, which is 10° to 16° earlier depending upon which camshaft timing you are comparing it to. The purpose behind this change is to build good dynamic compression with lower static compression. Narrowing the lobe centerline separation angle increased overlap, which is now 60°. This is very close to the same overlap as the original Boss 351; its not excessive but you wouldn't want any more than that for a street engine. The overlap period is now centered very well around top dead center, and it is within the dwell period at TDC. This serves to minimize the effect overlap has upon the engine's low rpm performance and drivability. The exhaust valve opens early enough to encourage high rpm performance even with a quietly muffled exhaust system. The intake valve begins opening 10° to 16° earlier and reaches full open 10° to 16° earlier, this makes more horsepower. Thus the revised Cobra Jet camshaft has all the benefits of an aftermarket narrow LSA camshaft without any of the typical drawbacks. "

His build is likely not exactly your build so the cam specs may vary. You should put some effort into getting a reasonable static and dynamic compression ratios. A lot depends on what your expectations are for the engine/car. George will respond to emails/PM if you write to him for advice on your specific build. Good luck on the build. Chuck

I know but I was looking at a build that was on the Pantera site. It’s called the bullet cam and is pretty close to my build and it’s for a guy asking about a Mustang.

I have 71 closed chamber heads that should be about 10:1 and I want a 7.75-8:1 dynamic. I want a hot street car, like I have said before. I’m still waiting to hear back from machine shop or final specs, but I’m just trying to get a few different ideas from you guys that have way more experience than I do. Your car is awesome, but I know it’s a stroker. Not ready for that yet. I’m sure you have had a few killer 351’s too

 

[c9zx]

So Chuck you’re saying that there is to much LSA? Would really like to hear your recommendation.

I got this from the Pantera web site and he posted this about August of this year. That’s why I figured it was pretty up to date.

I lifted this from the Pantera site, written by George. "I've revised the Cobra Jet camshaft lobe centerlines, setting them at 105°/115°. This has the effect of narrowing the lobe centerline separation angles to 110°, and timing the camshafts 5° advanced. That's fairly standard camshaft timing for this day and age. Be assured I haven't done anything strange or wonky. Thus reconfigured the intake valve closes at 60° ABDC, which is 10° to 16° earlier depending upon which camshaft timing you are comparing it to. The purpose behind this change is to build good dynamic compression with lower static compression. Narrowing the lobe centerline separation angle increased overlap, which is now 60°. This is very close to the same overlap as the original Boss 351; its not excessive but you wouldn't want any more than that for a street engine. The overlap period is now centered very well around top dead center, and it is within the dwell period at TDC. This serves to minimize the effect overlap has upon the engine's low rpm performance and drivability. The exhaust valve opens early enough to encourage high rpm performance even with a quietly muffled exhaust system. The intake valve begins opening 10° to 16° earlier and reaches full open 10° to 16° earlier, this makes more horsepower. Thus the revised Cobra Jet camshaft has all the benefits of an aftermarket narrow LSA camshaft without any of the typical drawbacks. "

His build is likely not exactly your build so the cam specs may vary. You should put some effort into getting a reasonable static and dynamic compression ratios. A lot depends on what your expectations are for the engine/car. George will respond to emails/PM if you write to him for advice on your specific build. Good luck on the build. Chuck

I know but I was looking at a build that was on the Pantera site. It’s called the bullet cam and is pretty close to my build and it’s for a guy asking about a Mustang.

I have 71 closed chamber heads that should be about 10:1 and I want a 7.75-8:1 dynamic. I want a hot street car, like I have said before. I’m still waiting to hear back from machine shop or final specs, but I’m just trying to get a few different ideas from you guys that have way more experience than I do. Your car is awesome, but I know it’s a stroker. Not ready for that yet. I’m sure you have had a few killer 351’s too

Thanks for the kind words. I plugged the cam data and 10:1 at sea level into the Wallace Calculator. I got 8.28 DCR. That is a little on the high side for 91 octane pump gas. You could lower the static, or increase the overlap, or both to get to where you want to be. Chuck