Distributor and Ignition Info Thread

[Mister 4x4]

Mine set initially without vacuum is right around 16, then with vacuum jumps up to 36. That's "normal" for Clevelands, as I understand it (the 20 degrees of advance under vacuum). If yours ran well with the 20 degree of vac advance under the MSD, then you'll be wanting to get that 20 degrees of vac advance back with the Duraspark dizzy as well.

The reason it works well [on mine] might be the White hooked up to the 'I' terminal. My results are partially "only theoretical" at this point, because I'm still stuck in the shop and can only test 'Park-mode' throttle response. Since yours is actually drivable and everything, you might consider connecting the White to the 'I' terminal and take it for a spin. If that, being the differential denominator between our configurations, brings your vacuumed timing up a full 20 degrees [like it's supposed to,] that might be the key.

 

[CZ-75]

I'll try that.

Which brings me to my only gripe with the Ram Air system: You can't fiddle with the carb or play with the throttle by hand... the air cleaner is so freakin' huge.

Edited to add: My factory tachometer still works.

 

[Mister 4x4]

Don,

What did you end up doing? As noted in another thread, CZ-75 also had the same issues with the White being hooked up to the 'S' terminal (as per the NPD harness diagram I mentioned earlier). I'm curious to know if you experienced the same results.

 

[Don65Stang]

I left the white disconnected and taped off. I haven't technically finished this mod b/c I haven't permanently mounted the box. Your question just reminded me.

Where's a good place to mount it? I was thinking to put it under the voltage regulator so it's somewhat hidden.

PS, my factory tach still works just fine.

 

[CZ-75]

I just put it on the shock tower. I also left the white wire disconnected

 

[Mister 4x4]

That was one of the things I was thinking of once the Wiki section gets a little more organized. I'm thinking that harvesting the good information for the Wiki, and leaving the original threads for further discussion is the way to go.

I'm also working on a 'new' diagram based on my findings that may or may not simplify things for everybody (since all of the diagrams I've collected seem to garner different results).

 

[Kit Sullivan]

I personally believe most daily-driver types go way overboard on high performance parts on thier cars...and ignition systems are a prime example. I see guys with moderate 300-400 horse street engines running ignitions that could support a 1000 hp supercharged, hi compression race engine. Overkill, to say the least.

There is no doubt in my mind that there are many guys out there that get just as much pleasure out of watching the expression on other people's faces when they open thier hoods and spot all that expensive weaponry as much, if not more so, from how all that equipment actually makes thier car run.

Someone mentioned "Durspark II", and that is an easy and inexpensive way to seriously upgrade a stock points-triggered ignition. A stock Duraspark set-up will easily handle a 350-400 horse set-up. Mallory and Crane both make simple drop-in electronically tuned distributors that are even better.

Other than a nitrous-fed or big-inch supercharged drag-car, those giant hipodistributors are overkill.

 

[Mister 4x4]

Mine's on the backside of the shock tower, and my Redneck Bait-Box Fuse Block is where the Duraspark box 'should' be (for better aesthetics). My voltage regulator is 'under' my solenoid (in the normal location), leaving the perfect spot (IMHO) for the DS box on the shock tower (where the voltage regulator normally lives).

I'll probably move things around and clean up the rest of the wiring within the next few weeks.

You might put it under the solenoid if you want to hide it - which might be a little 'more' hidden by the cables and wires coming off the solenoid itself. Personally, I think it would look cool right out in the open - since it's a cool mod, and has a 'factory' look to it.

 

[mdan575]

I personally believe most daily-driver types go way overboard on high performance parts on thier cars...and ignition systems are a prime example. I see guys with moderate 300-400 horse street engines running ignitions that could support a 1000 hp supercharged, hi compression race engine. Overkill, to say the least.

There is no doubt in my mind that there are many guys out there that get just as much pleasure out of watching the expression on other people's faces when they open thier hoods and spot all that expensive weaponry as much, if not more so, from how all that equipment actually makes thier car run.

Someone mentioned "Durspark II", and that is an easy and inexpensive way to seriously upgrade a stock points-triggered ignition. A stock Duraspark set-up will easily handle a 350-400 horse set-up. Mallory and Crane both make simple drop-in electronically tuned distributors that are even better.

Other than a nitrous-fed or big-inch supercharged drag-car, those giant hipodistributors are overkill.

Isn't that the truth. Duraspark or Pertronix Ignitor both are a significant improvement over the stock points system that are cheap and reliable.

 

[Don65Stang]

That was one of the things I was thinking of once the Wiki section gets a little more organized. I'm thinking that harvesting the good information for the Wiki, and leaving the original threads for further discussion is the way to go.

I'm also working on a 'new' diagram based on my findings that may or may not simplify things for everybody (since all of the diagrams I've collected seem to garner different results).

Great minds think alike.

I personally believe most daily-driver types go way overboard on high performance parts on their cars...and ignition systems are a prime example.

Someone mentioned "Durspark II", and that is an easy and inexpensive way to seriously upgrade a stock points-triggered ignition. A stock Duraspark set-up will easily handle a 350-400 horse set-up. Mallory and Crane both make simple drop-in electronically tuned distributors that are even better.

Other than a nitrous-fed or big-inch supercharged drag-car, those giant hipodistributors are overkill.

Both are very true statements. The same thing can be said about a lot of the cams out there. Same for rear gears.

 

[Mister 4x4]

I liken it to the practice of buying way too much stereo for your needs: Yeah, it's expensive... but guess what - when you crank up your basic stereo to a comfortable level, it may or may not be taxing the stereo itself, whereas a superior (usually, more expensive and powerful) stereo will not even breathe hard and will usually offer better clarity and last longer [than a possibly struggling cheaper/less-powerful unit].

Duraspark works perfect for me - it was 'cheaper' than an MSD, Mallory, Accel, or some other system... it 'looks' factory... and it 'fits' better with the factory Ram Air set-up (which is the MOST important thing for me). My engine fits into the higher-end of what the Duraspark system might be capable of handling... and that's fine. But if I wind up having to replace components on a regular basis more frequently than what's considered 'normal,' I will re-think the whole deal (since mine's intended to be a daily driver).

 

[CZ-75]

Guys with Duraspark conversion... You may recall that Erik (Mr. 4x4) and I have scratched our heads regarding teh wiring harness sold by NPD. Here is some good info:

THE IGNITION RETARD IS *NOT* a fallacy. It is now a confirmed FACT! After some experimentation and head-scratching, I was able to get the ignition retard to work. In the process, I discovered some information that the community might find helpful. It actually was a wiring problem, but one others may likely encounter as well.

I was using the Painless 30812 wiring harness as-delivered, and connected it according to the wiring diagram in their manual. I NOW BELIEVE THE PAINLESS 30812 WIRING DIAGRAM IS INCORRECT. It will allow the engine to run, however it defeats the ignition retard feature.

The 80312 harness has white and brown shorted together in the harness, and both are connected to the I terminal on the solenoid. At first thought, this makes sense. While cranking, the I terminal becomes energized and provides full battery voltage to both the coil via the brown (ballast resistor bypass) wire, and to cranking indicator input of the ignition module via the white wire. All well and good, except that when NOT cranking, the brown wire still has voltage on it because connects to the positive coil terminal. Because white is shorted to brown in the harness, this same positive coil voltage therefore appears at the white ignition module input. On most cars, including mine, this voltage will be less than 12V due to drop across the ballast resistor. Regardless, this voltage is high enough to cause the module to believe the engine is cranking all the time. Using their wiring diagram, touching the white wire on and off of a 12V source has no effect because you are then just bouncing the module input between two voltages that are both above the threshold used to activate the retard feature.

In other words, if you wire the Painless 30812 harness the way they tell you to, your ignition module will be in retard mode 100% of the time and you will not enjoy the start retard feature. I have just notified them about this design error; perhaps they will make revisions. In any case, the harness still has value if you apply the following solution:

1) Snip the brown wire thereby disconnecting it from the white. Tape off the ignition module side of your cut; it is no longer needed. Then connect the other, ignition coil, side to the I terminal of the solenoid, thereby re-enabling it to function properly as a resistor bypass during cranking. (Note: some cars, including mine, already have an I-terminal connection with a resistor bypass wire in the factory wiring. In such case, the brown Painless wire is not needed at all, but it must still be cut and disconnected from white -- snip it and tape off both sides of the cut.)

2) Connect the Painless white wire NOT to the I terminal as they suggest, but rather to the S terminal. The S terminal only has voltage while actually cranking. As explained above, the I terminal will have voltage all the time while running, if a resistor bypass wire exists (and it should).

Once I made these mods, the system began working like a dream. With the engine running, I was able to see the timing change in real time by energizing and de-energizing the white wire. On my 1U2Z-AA blue-grommet module I measured the retard to be a consistent RPM-independent, 5 degrees. I'd say that's just about ideal. Now I will be able to run more initial advance and enjoy the improved performance, while still actually being able to restart the engine when hot.

Source:

http://www.fordmuscleforums.com/all-ford-techboard/512558-duraspark-ii-ignition-retard-fallacy-fiction-2.html

 

[CZ-75]

There have been a few of us who have switched over to a Duraspark II electronic ignition system. There is a wiring harness available from NPD that is made specifically for our Mustangs and for the Duraspark II conversion.

Beyond the obvious benefit of electronic ignition, the DS II control module can retard the timing while the starter is cranking, which reduces the amount of torque required from the starter for it to work properly. The module does this, by sending an electonic signal from the starter selenoid via the white wire (in the harness referred to above) you cennect to the "S" terminal of the selenoid. So, whenever you turn the key to "Start" the starter cranks, and the distributer retards the timing a bit until you release the key to teh "ON" or "Run" position.

There has been some confusuion as to the wiring diagram included with the harness. When wired the way the instructions are written, the starter does not disengage after the engine starts and the ignition swith is in Run. I had to pull the white wire off the "S" terminal of the starter selenoid to get the starter to stop cranking.

The common solution, is to not use the white wire. This is fine, unless you want to take advantage of teh timing retard function.

Apparently, the wiring is wrong for the brown wire (Ignition). Somewhere between the control module and the part of the harness where the brown wire emerges and goes to the ignition coil, it is connected to (shorted with) the white wire. This is why it looks like you can't use the white wire. This is also why the vacumm retard is constatnly on.

To remedy: Snip the brown wire, and tape off the end that goes back to the control module. It is not needed, and by snipping it, you eliminate the short. Then, extend the brown wire from the coil and connect it to the Ignition post on the starter selenoid. This effectively allows teh white wire to work, and re-routs teh ignition wire. If you want to retard the timing while the starter cranks, connect the white wire to the Start post on the selenoid, and you should be good to go.

I have not tried this yet because my control module failed, and I need to replace it... which I will be doing tonight, hopefully.

Supposedly, the harness manufacturer has been made aware of this problem, and is in the process of fixing it. So if you plan to do this conversion, wire the harness according to directions. If your starter behaves like it's a character on The Walking Dead (won't stop), thne follow the remdy above. But if all works well when wired according to instructions, then you probably got a corrected harness.

 

[Don65Stang]

I need to give this a try because using the white wire on my setup causes the starter to be possessed and won't stop cranking until I disconnect from the solenoid.

Good info!

Maybe we should move this post and add it to the main DS II thread.

 

[CZ-75]

I finally had a chance to perform the surgery...

I can confirm that it works. I snipped the brown wire, then connected the "coil side" of the wire to the "I" terminal on the starter selenoid. So, basically, there is now a single brown wire that runs from teh coil to teh selenoid, with no connection to teh wiring harness.

I also connected the white wire to teh "S" terminal on the selenoid.

Started the car, and re-set the timing. Re-settng the timing improved the RPMs at idle, so I went into "re-tune the carb" mode... Adjusted the idle, then fiddled with the airflow valves until I got the strongest vacuum reading.

This made a huge difference in startup. It is obvious that the "retard while cranking" function works. The car cranked without as much effort, and fired right up!

Now all I need to do is tidy up all the wires.

 

[Mister 4x4]

OK - so exactly "where" did you snip the brown wire (at what point physically in the harness, specifically)? At the coil end, or at the module plug end? Also, without the benefit of a picture, which coil terminal does the brown wire connect to?

So basically, by what you're saying with the brown shorting into the white wire (somewhere in the harness), having the white wire connected to the 'I' terminal (which is how mine is currently wired), is essentially the same thing - just without the vacuum advance feature enabled (white wire into brown wire, means brown wire contacts the 'I' terminal).

I'm pretty sure I have the same unrevised harness as you guys, since when I hooked it up according to the supplied directions, the starter would not disengage (as you mentioned with yours). Based on your reply, I'll make the change this weekend and see what happens. Seems simple enough to disconnect something, run an extra wire from coil to 'I', move the white wire to the 'S' terminal, and re-time (if necessary).

 

[CZ-75]

Eric,

With the brown and white wires shorted, the retard function is always "ON" with only the white wire attached to the "I" terminal

The brown wire that I snipped goes from the coil to the taped-up portion of the harness (then continues inside the taped part). I snipped the brown wire a couple of inches away from the taped-up area (in case I needed to undo the snip) then used some electrical tape applied to the harness end so it wouldn't accidentally short on anything. That left me with a brown wire that is still attached to the coil, but too short to reach the ignition selenoid. So, I spliced another foot or so of wire onto the brown wire, and ran it to the Ignition post on the selenoid. This ends up being a single bare wire running from the coil to the "I" terminal on the selenoid.

With the short now eliminated, I connected the white wire to the "S" post on the selenoid, and it now works without buggering up the starter.

 

[Mister 4x4]

Thanks! I suspected as much, but wanted clarification so we can include this with the Duraspark Conversion thread.

 

[Don65Stang]

Nice work! Looks like I need to get mine snipped.

 

[CZ-75]

I got snipped like 14 or 15 years ago, but that's a whole different story.