How can I tell if a 71 Boss, CJ or SCJ is legitimate and as originally built or a re-body/View Inner Fender VIN stamps?

[kna4977]

What are some ways to tell if a 1971-3 is legitimate and as originally built or a re-body?

What is the easiest and least invasive way to view the inner fender/shock tower VINs?

Do you have to take the fender completely off or just loosen the top bolts?

 

[giantpune]

In all the 71-73 I've ever tried to look at, you can lift the front end up so the driver's side wheel is dangling. Then shine a light up in the wheel well and snap a handful of pictures at the area. The partial VIN is visible even with the fender fully installed.

It is possible to do with the car sitting on the ground even, but a lot harder to get your hands with the light and camera all up in there.

Other things to look for are the rear axle. There was the one phony 429 with a 8" rear and no staggered rear shocks.

 

[kna4977]

In all the 71-73 I've ever tried to look at, you can lift the front end up so the driver's side wheel is dangling. Then shine a light up in the wheel well and snap a handful of pictures at the area. The partial VIN is visible even with the fender fully installed.

It is possible to do with the car sitting on the ground even, but a lot harder to get your hands with the light and camera all up in there.

Other things to look for are the rear axle. There was the one phony 429 with a 8" rear and no staggered rear shocks.

….and if there’s undercoating?

 

[giantpune]

….and if there’s undercoating?

I dont really understand the question. If the undercoating is covering up the stamp making it impossible to read, its gonna be doing that with or without the fender installed.

 

[RIBS]

One thing to know, you can swap the front frame VIN fairly easy, and grind the top welds smooth. Make sure you look from underneath to see if the top frame rail has been patched together, it’s a lot more difficult to grind smooth….

 

[tpj71mach]

It's not too difficult to get a picture of the stamped partial VIN with the fender on, I just went out to my car and took this pic with it on the ground. Although my suspension is all new so a car with some miles on the front springs might sit lower and if you are looking at Boss's they would also have 15" wheels so it may need to be raised up to get in there.

 

[kna4977]

I dont really understand the question. If the undercoating is covering up the stamp making it impossible to read, its gonna be doing that with or without the fender installed.

True. The point is that would eliminate the benefit of being and convenience of being able to see it without removing the fender. It would necessitate fender removal.

 

[giantpune]

True. The point is that would eliminate the benefit of being and convenience of being able to see it without removing the fender. It would necessitate fender removal.

Why? I dont understand why it would be any different?
The fender does not sit down touching the stamping. The stamp is on a different surface than where the fender sits. You can read that surface with the fender in place. I dont understand what undercoating has to do with it.

 

[kna4977]

Why? I dont understand why it would be any different?
The fender does not sit down touching the stamping. The stamp is on a different surface than where the fender sits. You can read that surface with the fender in place. I dont understand what undercoating has to do with it.

I see now what you’re saying. I didn’t realize these slanted down unlike a 70 or before. I’m used to 69/70 cougars. They’re flat and right under the fender. If there’s a bow in the fender lip on those it’s possible to see but very difficult usually requiring fender removal to view.

 

[Fabrice]

To come back to your original question. Yes you can't really be 100% sure. Unless some apron work is visible and against the claim of the seller. In my experience, I know I find very strange that 35 years ago, there were already at the time a few 429 CJ's registered and now days, since value went up, it's like Ford had a secret production of SCJ's. So yeah do not buy without inspecting very very closely.
Some parts absolutely impossible to find may also help. For instance a CJ with a rochester will have a mechanical pump with a return line. This metal line goes back to the tank from the driver side and is hooked to the tank sending unit with 2 in-outlets. The holley equipped do not.
if you can (and should) look at the car on a lift. Try see which kind of converter is on, as the pilot is larger for these than other years (may be the converter part number could help id/comfirmed that). The tag on the c6 as well. They have extra planetaries vs regular C6 coming for instance from T-birds(tho some had these).
The heads must have the stamp DOOE-R...
The more original parts 71 only , 429 only you find the less likely it's a scam as finding these parts is very hard these days and requires a significant investment in both time and money. History of the car can help as well etc..

Good luck finding one and keep in mind there are also honest people!

 

[kna4977]

One thing to know, you can swap the front frame VIN fairly easy, and grind the top welds smooth. Make sure you look from underneath to see if the top frame rail has been patched together, it’s a lot more difficult to grind smooth….

Anyone have an example of what a top frame rail patch might look like?

 

[RIBS]

Anyone have an example of what a top frame rail patch might look like?

Maybe….here are some pictures of my car immediately after buying before restoration. You can see from the top the frame rail looks pretty smooth and normal….
when you look underneath, you see extra seams, not very clean welds. What gives it away the most is the spot welds around the VIN! I went all through this car, there is enough of it left and matching Marti report for me to know this is the car represented. My drivers side shows evidence of a collision repair, so most likely this frame rail was replaced durning a repair, and VIN was spliced back in….

sometimes it’s a problem sometimes it’s not….

 

[Mark Jones]

I found this tag on the street side of the radiator support panel. Seems like a VIN tag to me although I cant seem to find any history for some of the numbers and letters on the tag. Since the car is apart, I dont know if you could see this tag without removing the grill. It was located between the horn and the driver's side headlight area. Sure would like to find out what all the numbers and letters mean.

 

[Sheriff41]

That's your buck tag. Search the forums for buck tag and you'll find some old threads that break down most of the alphanumerics.

 

[kna4977]

I found this tag on the street side of the radiator support panel. Seems like a VIN tag to me although I cant seem to find any history for some of the numbers and letters on the tag. Since the car is apart, I dont know if you could see this tag without removing the grill. It was located between the horn and the driver's side headlight area. Sure would like to find out what all the numbers and letters mean.
View attachment 82004

Thanks for posting. Not really what this thread is about, but here's what I came up with. Sounds like a nicely equipped and great color combo 72 Q code.

VIN=Q Code 1972

63R=2 door fastback Mach 1

10B=February 10th

576=rotation number

5A=Light Pewter Metallic

AC=Air Conditioning

PB=Power Disc Brakes

GE=Vermillion Knitted

CS=Collapsible Spare

BTRAC=Dual Racing Mirrors

BO=Lower Body Paint Treatment

FDS=Fold Down Rear Seat

DE=Dual Exhaust

 

[Mark Jones]

Thank you Sheriff and kna4977 for the info.
Sadly (and I cant imagine why), someone who owned this car did a full color change to Race Red and changed the interior to black. Personally, I would have loved it to have been the light Pewter with the Vermillion knit interior.
Unfortunately, my restoration budget at this point is depleted and I won't be able to return it to its former glory during this round. I have bought everything I need to put it back together mechanically and it was more than I bargained for. It does need paint and new seat covers so maybe after I get it running and driving, I can start saving for paint and interior. If I do, I would definitely entertain going back to the original Light Pewter color and Vermillion knitted interior.

 

[giantpune]

Maybe….here are some pictures of my car immediately after buying before restoration. You can see from the top the frame rail looks pretty smooth and normal….
when you look underneath, you see extra seams, not very clean welds. What gives it away the most is the spot welds around the VIN! I went all through this car, there is enough of it left and matching Marti report for me to know this is the car represented. My drivers side shows evidence of a collision repair, so most likely this frame rail was replaced durning a repair, and VIN was spliced back in….

sometimes it’s a problem sometimes it’s not….

Yep, it depends entirely on the skill of the guy doing the repair and how much time he wants to put into it. If somebody wanted to, they could put in the effort and have the bottom loop as pretty as the top.

As an example, our ATF has rules about the destruction of machine guns and how they are cut apart. It is legal to take some cut pieces and weld them back together to make a different firearm. One fellow by the name of John Norell was so good at the welding and dressing that you could not tell with the naked eye anything had ever been cut and welded. The ATF was looking to through the book at him. They ended up running some of this completed ones through an xray to be able to tell that he had, in fact, welded them back together.