1972 351C runs crap

[Odmark]

Maybe i should just pull the cam, got nothing to loose at this point.

Since its now got fuel and ignition fully sorted out im most certainly looking at some kind of mechanical rebuild wether i like it or not. Might as well pull the intake, heads and cam.

If the cam is worn i can sort that out and clean out the engine properly in the process.

I feel like i wanr to clean the lifter valley as well as machine-clean the heads.

And of course pull the oil pan, machine-clean that as well and clean the oil pickup. Or maybe replace the pump when im down there.

Too bad im on a tight budget here, kids and the house take up lots of money, and the wife is out of work.

Maybe i have to let the car sit this summer

Ah well, at least i got my old girl which never fails me. 1975 Saab 96, swedish quality at its best

I will keep posting my progress here

And also big thanks to you guys here! You and the people over at mercurycougar.net really helped me out on this!!

 

[Don C]

It sounds like you're on the right track.

Do you know what the oil pressure is/was? You might be able to save a few bucks by dismantling the oil pump and inspecting it for wear and the clearances. If you don't know what the oil pressure was I would inspect a couple of rod bearings and main bearings while you have the pan off. You'll also need to inspect and measure the cam bearings.

 

[Odmark]

I dont know about the oil pressure but i think the gauge in the car is working so im going to check that out before dissasembly.

Definetly checking out some bearings while down there.

 

[Don C]

I would hook up a mechanical gauge, much more responsive and better at diagnostics. You can tell a lot about bearing condition by watching pressure fluctuations during acceleration and deceleration.

 

[Odmark]

Im starting to think i should save up and do a full rebuild, since the car probably will be sitting this summer anyway.

So i need some advice, is this a good kit to buy?http://pages.ebay.com/motors/link/?nav=item.view&id=151254330507&alt=web

Flat top pistons and street cam.

I dont know so much about cams, how is this compared to a, say edelbrock performer cam?

IF i decide to do a complete teardown, i would like to gain some power in the process.

Or if bearings and so on seem okay i might just buy an edel performance and slap it back together.

 

[Jeff73Mach1]

You don't need to pull the heads to do a cam change. Not pulling them will save you the costs of head gaskets and changing the coolant.

 

[Odmark]

Yes i know, but i feel i want to check the heads out properly and machine clean them. Also makes it much easier to replace the valve seals.

Right now im leaning towards pulling the engine out for minor upgrades and full rebuild.

I mean, the cam must have gone flat for a reason right?

Probably oil starvation or something? Considering how sludged the engine is.

Makes me wonder how the condition of cylinders and other mechanical components are.

 

[Odmark]

Small update.

I started the dissasembly, intake and heads are off. Nice suprise - already got flat-top pistons!

Lost of sludge in the lifter valley, going to fill the engine up with diesel tomorrow.

Pulling the cam and hopefully the oil pan this weekend.

Then the plan is:

Guy at work going to ultrasonic clean the heads and pan.

Replace valve seals and grind the valves, as well as mill the heads.

Clean out oil pickup and also as good as i can - the block.

Buy a new cam, gasket set, head bolt etc.

Slap it back together and hopefully get to do some snowy donuts on my driveway

 

[MT91106]

I'm not familiar with Edelbrock carbs but if it were a Holly I would look at the power valve or accelerator pump as possible culprits.

FYI the edlebrock is a copy of the Carter AFB (just so you know). I was going to say power valve as well since it did backfire. However i have a Carter on mine and if it has the automatic choke i had mine backfire back in the day doing some work on it and it jammed the choke plate on the top of the carb not allowing it to breath correctly so i took the choke off. Had to tap on on it with the back of a screw driver to get it to "move back into place" so it would open and allow the car to breath. Can can backfire if you try to jump on it while its cold then would jam the choke plate. So that might be it see if the choke opens and closes properly if stuck there is your problem as its not getting any air.


The other thing is you said it sat so might just need to be gone thru and cleaned as the fuel now a days sucks and will evaporate clogging up the carb and everything. You can purchase an AFB rebuild kit through Summit, Jegs, or any good parts place that carrys hi perf stuff.

 

[Odmark]

Reviving this thread again.

The weekend after the next one, me and a friend of mine is going to yank the engine out.

Then im going to dissasemble and inspect the crankshaft and main/rod bearings so i know what i should order.

The engine is getting a 0.30 bore and honing. Milling the crank if nessecary.

Going with a full rebuild kit from ebay, 0.30 flat tops, pretty mild cam, little hotter than stock though. Comparable with the edel performer.

Selling my 4V intake atm. And going to order a 2V edelbrock instead.

So the plan now is to build a mild street engine just to get me rolling this summer, and best of all- it is in the frames of my budget

 

[c9zx]

Reviving this thread again.

The weekend after the next one, me and a friend of mine is going to yank the engine out.

Then im going to dissasemble and inspect the crankshaft and main/rod bearings so i know what i should order.

The engine is getting a 0.30 bore and honing. Milling the crank if nessecary.

Going with a full rebuild kit from ebay, 0.30 flat tops, pretty mild cam, little hotter than stock though. Comparable with the edel performer.

Selling my 4V intake atm. And going to order a 2V edelbrock instead.

So the plan now is to build a mild street engine just to get me rolling this summer, and best of all- it is in the frames of my budget

I'm glad you have a plan. Some details you should consider: OEM rod bolt nuts and multi-groove valve known to be catastrophic failure items. Depth of front cam bearing is important as is checking lifter bore diameter. Both are known to cause oiling problems. Find out what the compression distance (CD) of the pistons you are buying are, they vary vendor to vendor. Too short and the piston ends up too far down in the bore, lowering compression and increasing the chance of detonation. Spend a little more to have the block squared left to right and front to rear as well as decking the block aiming for a .005 to .000 deck height (top of the piston relative to the top of the block when the piston is at top dead center). Depending on how much material is removed from the block and the heads you may have to mill the intake to ensure a good intake to head seal. Before the engine is completely dis-assembled, check to see that the damper timing mark shows 0 when the piston is at top dead center to confirm the outer ring of the damper has not moved. A good 3-5 angle valve job can really help the flow of the heads. Let us know how things progress and good luck.

Chuck

 

[barnett468]

if you have closed chamber heads and use .005 deck height and have at least around 9.0 compression, you should use cometic .035" thick head gaskets to get the quench/squish clearance correct but they are $200.00 a pair,

 

[Jeff73Mach1]

buy a 60 grit flap wheel for your grinder and deburr the parting lines on the outside of your block's casting before the work is done and you'll save your self some scratches and cuts and have a better looking engine

 

[Odmark]

Thanks for all the tips guys.

A question, is the 400M a crappy engine? I found rebuilt one for about 700 dollars. Abot the same price as just a rebuild kit for my 351c, the 400 is a little bit cheaper.

And more than half the price of everything combined that i need for my engine.

The 400 would drop right in the car if im not mistaken?

Can i use my 351c heads with the aluminium intake on the 400?

Im thinking maybe buy and drop the 400 in so i can get the car going and build a proper cleveland without such a strict budget and time.

 

[Canted 393]

Thanks for all the tips guys.

A question, is the 400M a crappy engine? I found rebuilt one for about 700 dollars. Abot the same price as just a rebuild kit for my 351c, the 400 is a little bit cheaper.

And more than half the price of everything combined that i need for my engine.

The 400 would drop right in the car if im not mistaken?

Can i use my 351c heads with the aluminium intake on the 400?

Im thinking maybe buy and drop the 400 in so i can get the car going and build a proper cleveland without such a strict budget and time.

351c heads will work on a 400 but the intake will not and I think a 400 will need a different bell housing.

 

[Jeff73Mach1]

Correct, plus the 400 in stock form was not a well respected engine. Here in the United States the term "boat anchor" was used yo describe it as in, that is all is is good for.

In reality the 400 can be a fantastic engine- The factory retarded camshaft timing to reduce emissions. With a modern cam set without the cam retarded, Cleveland 4V heads, custom pistons and balancing . . . it can be a beast.

What you can buy that cheaply is probably just a stock motor with maybe fresh rings and bearings, timing chain and gasket set-don't do it

 

[Odmark]

Well thats a bummer. Would have been nice just to have a driveable engine in the car so i could build the cleveland the way i want it and not rush the job.

But a replacement cleveland is like 1900-2300 dollars, and that is a 2V engine in unknown condition. IF i find one.

I think ill make this rebuild as low budget as possible right now, and then yank the engine again next winter, or the one after that, depending on how how the job situation looks for me and the wife, and do a more performance oriented build then.

 

[Odmark]

http://postimg.org/image/cwlx07fj7/

Just thought Id post a pic of my snapped oil pump shaft. I think the pump probably is very siezed. :whistling:

Engine coming out on saturday! Just hoping the crankshaft is okay *fingers crossed* so i dont have to deal with that expense.

 

[Odmark]

So, engine out and dissassembled.

Lots of junk in the bottom end, most wierd was that it was full of stuff that look like needles, or half bobby pins.

They where everywhere, stuck between the rods, in the oil pickup, in the pan...

The crankshaft is probably going to need a regrind sadly, i feel the scratches with my nail.

 

[Jeff73Mach1]

Wire brush bristles, I suspect. That leads me to believe the top end was gunked up badly and someone tried to clean it with an improper method.