351 4v heads

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burbygurby

Active member
Joined
Jul 4, 2024
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Location
lexington, kentucky
My Car
'73 mach 1 q-code
I have a 351 4v and had the engine at the machine shop getting cleaned and fixed up and they called my saying the heads are in pretty bad condition and they didn't recommend using them as it would take a lot of work for an okay job. I have been looking into other options and am just looking for suggestions. I don't really care to buy new stuff or an original and fix it up again but i have already bought most of the parts for the heads i was going to use so something that would fit those parts would be best...4v edelbrock air gap, ferrea valves (2.07/1.650), original rocker arms, flat tappet cam. I was originally planning on building the engine to around 400hp so I don't need any crazy super high tech stuff but I also don't want the worst things there are. Thanks!
 
"4v edelbrock air gap, ferrea valves (2.07/1.650), original rocker arms, flat tappet cam" those the parts I got. They said there is some pretty badly pitted spots from rust and there are three hardened seats in it already and we don't know the quality of the last job but he doesnt want to take them out to go bigger and possibly hit the water jacket. and I was going to have it milled a bit to raise compression but they have been previously milled too and they did a pretty wack job so he didn't know how good he could make it.
 
Sorry, did I miss that list in the original post? That's a decent set of parts and a good reason to keep with the 4V. An original set isn't impossible to find although a quick search shows they can be a bit 'pricey'. I can't help with what aftermarket might work. When I was searching for a set of 4V heads I don't recall many aftermarket options but it has been years.

The next question is how big of a rush are you in? If you want to get this done now you will probably pay a premium for heads but if you are willing to sit back with some cash a deal will eventually come along.
 
I’m not in too crazy big of a rush but I would like to have the engine complete before the summer cause the body work is being completed right now so there’s a possibility it is drivable by then
 
Also you did not specify if you need open/closed chamber heads. Do you know which you have? I have a set of bare "N" heads Closed chamber I can part with. Let me know if you're interested.
 
They were open chambered I would be fine with closed but would they fit my valves, I don't know all the different measurements. What woudl you be asking
 
And what does the "n" mean
I think the N heads (D0AE-N?) are 70 closed chamber with 2.19 valves.

If you have open chamber 4v heads with 2.07 valves, they are probably late 73-74 heads (4v ports but 2v valves sizes).
 
I have a 351 4v and had the engine at the machine shop getting cleaned and fixed up and they called my saying the heads are in pretty bad condition and they didn't recommend using them as it would take a lot of work for an okay job. I have been looking into other options and am just looking for suggestions. I don't really care to buy new stuff or an original and fix it up again but i have already bought most of the parts for the heads i was going to use so something that would fit those parts would be best...4v edelbrock air gap, ferrea valves (2.07/1.650), original rocker arms, flat tappet cam. I was originally planning on building the engine to around 400hp so I don't need any crazy super high tech stuff but I also don't want the worst things there are. Thanks!
What your Machinist is unaware is that replacing the heads are a fortune out of pocket since they will need to be gone thru anyways.

Having them go thru your heads and fix them is the best and most economical way and yes repairs are likely to run 1k by the time they are done. Been thru this and that is the hard truth.
 
What your Machinist is unaware is that replacing the heads are a fortune out of pocket since they will need to be gone thru anyways.

Having them go thru your heads and fix them is the best and most economical way and yes repairs are likely to run 1k by the time they are done. Been thru this and that is the hard truth.
yeah i talked to another guy and he suggested I do that so I talked to the shop but the shop said they were too busy and told me to go some place else....
 
yeah i talked to another guy and he suggested I do that so I talked to the shop but the shop said they were too busy and told me to go some place else....
Wow! They probably gave you some valuable advice. Go somewhere that actually wants your business.
 
What your Machinist is unaware is that replacing the heads are a fortune out of pocket since they will need to be gone thru anyways.

Having them go thru your heads and fix them is the best and most economical way and yes repairs are likely to run 1k by the time they are done. Been thru this and that is the hard truth.
That's if you can find any guaranteed to not be cracked.
 
So far, I've been lucky with my shop work. The guide bosses were damaged, not uncommon from my understanding but the new bronze guides were installed easily. Valve seats were in decent shape and only a light pass with the seat grinder. New valves also seated very well and given their age, that could have been a real nightmare being that I was really concerned about them when I started the process. Final steps in the process when I stopped by last week where the heads were on the milling machine and there was just a very slight pass on the mill to true up the surface again. That was my biggest surprise given their history.
Unfortunately for me, I'm also swapping out to a roller system and mild build or not, that's what is starting to add up in dollars.
The remainder of the motor is a whole other unknown.
 
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Aluminum heads, eh? Recently I have been helping a friend with his 1968 Road Runner with a 383 that was punched out to 512cid. The prior owner built the engine himself, using a machine shop as needed. I guess y'all might know where this is heading... Anyway, a little while after buying the Road Runner he began to have problems with the starter. A local shop insalled a high performance starter motor, and immediately the new starter caused grinding noises when the engine waws cranked over (I am getting to the aluminum heads, I promise. I am just trying to set some context here). The shop told him "they all do that with replacement starters."

I told him that the shop is right, they all grind like that with starter replacements, IF THEY LEAVE OFF THE METAL GASKET (aka metal shim)! I made a few calls and found a place with their last two metal gaskets (shims), and had them ship them to me. My put the car up on my lift, and installed the shim. Surprise, surprise! No more grinding sound! But, I noticed a ticking sound that occured as half-speed, indicating a valve train issue. "Oh yeah, that started after brought it home. I figured I just had to let it break in a bit more." I broke out some vibration sensors and recorded sounds coming from several places hear where the sound seemed to be coming from, and used an elecronic stethoscope to test some other areas. I recorded the sounds on a multitrack recorder, along with a set of inductive leads that sent a signal any time spark plug 3 fired, and any time the ignition coil fired. When analyzing the sound waves I used the #1 plug firing signal to ascertain exactly where the ticking was coming fro - #5 cylinder, exhaust valve. We pulled the valve cover, and found #5 pushrod had popped out of position. Other pushrods on valves not being opened at the moment (engine off) were loose, but not yet enough to pop off. My friend said, I guess we need to adjust the valves. I told him I thought the need was deeper.

As I began to look at the valve train, with the rocker shaft and adjustable rockers (roller tip, nice high performance rockers), I found the rocker shaft mounting bolts were all loose. I suggested we pull the bolts and look at the threads, but by then my buddy was grabbing his torqaue wrench, looked up the torque spec, and began to tighten the bolts. 4 of the 5 bolts tightened well enough, but one of then ended up pulling the threads out. I told him the way to correct the issue would be to heli-coil all five bolt holes, then get some high grade studs with NC threading for the head end, and NF threading for the rocker end.

I ordered a nice SAE/Metric Heli-Coil kit and showed him how to heli-coil the damaged threads, as well as some high grade studs with NC threas at one end, and NC threads at the other. I also ordered some high grade lock nuts, and even some stainless steel split lock washers. Once I went back to his place with all the goodies he really did not want to heli-coil and stud the other bolt holes, as he felt they were now tight and properly torqued. I voiced my recommendation, but told him if he wanted to go no further I would not interfere. The one damaged thread took the heli-coiling very nicely and the heli0coiled stainless steel threads accepted the stud perfectly. The NF nut tightened down nicely, and the stud accepted the torquing with no issues. I figured aat worst he would end up heli-coiling and studding the head anyway if the bolts loosened again. He went out for a test drive and upon returning told me the engine was running better than it ever had.

I suggested we check the rocker shaft mount bolts on the other head, and the valve adjustments. The other head mounting bolts for the rocker shaft mounts were fine, but the valves definitely needed to be adjusted, as all has aa little valve lash, which forr hydraulic llfters, even hydraulic roll lifters, is not what we want. The engine sounded and ran really well after the valve adjustments were made. But, I was not convinced the rocker shaft bolts were going to say tight on the driver side of the engine. I reiterated my recommendation we heli-coil and stud the fasteners for the rocker shafts on both side, mostly because for aluminum heads using sudes instead of bolts helps keep the threads from wearing with such a soct metal. Nope, he felt we nailed the problem, so I told him the other studs, nuts, lock washers, and heli-coil inserts would be waiting for him in the event they were needed. Long story short, they were needed, but only on the one side of the engine. The other side nothing loosened up.

Shortened story made a little longer, omitting details... We studded the mounts on the one head after installing heli-coil inserts in the bolt holes. We left the other head alone, and I am betting this coming car Season when he takes the car out, we will end up needing to stud the other head also.

So, why all that info? To help lend support to my suggestion that with aluminum heads and/or blocks all bolt holes for non angled mounting parts the bolt holes be drilled and tepped for heli-coil stainless steel inserts, then studded as opposed to using bolts. Some situations will not allow for studding, such as mounting the intake manifild as its bolts are not perpendicular to the head's mating surface - so studs will not work out very well.

Okay, that's all I had to say about the bolting on of parts to aluminum heads or blocks.
 
I'm guessing, without seeing your heads, that the guide boss damage you ar referring to is the guide boss that is inside of the springs. That boss is tapered, as cast, and can frequently crack away due to it being thin up at the top. Not to worry. Most machinists will mill that boss away all the way down to the inner sping pad, or close to, anyway. Because so many enthusiasts replace the stock lift camshafts with a higher lift cam, and PC seals, the boss will need to be machined down anyway. Because of bad camshaft cores from the foundry, ( same foundry that supplies GM and Mopar as well ), either the material used, or the hardening, so many people have had bad luck with the regular hydraulic and solid grind, flat tappet cams having lobes go flat. Lots of people have gone to a Roller cam ( as have I ) just to sidestep that issue. But, there haven't been a lot of cam grinders marketing mild street grinds for our Clevelands, so you really have to check them all out to find something that will run good at street RPMs and give good vacuum for things like power brakes. Add to that, Roller cams will generally require a stiffer spring upgrade to go along with the more expensive roller tappets. That done, now, because roller tappets are longer than hydraulic or solid tappets, you will need to get shorter pushrods and re-check geometry. Going roller cam does take more bucks than stock.
 
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