351C 4V Valve and valvetrain replacement

[barnett468]

Absolutely no need to use stock springs to break in with that cam.

I would use joe gibbs break in oil.

 

[MeZapU]

I would use joe gibbs break in oil.

Not for a flat tappet cam.

https://540ratblog.wordpress.com/2013/06/20/motor-oil-wear-test-ranking/

Their racing oil is decent but their break in oil is at the absolute bottom of the list.

 

[Qcode351mach]

you need valve springs

that cam is horrible, send it back for a refund

thats an antiquated grind . the ridiculous amount of 310 adv duration is laughable on a street car and is going to spit lots of compression right back out the valves.

it should also have a dual pattern to compensate for the poor exhaust to intake flow.

you also need to know his gear ratio and tire size and converter stall if he has an auto etc.

I tend to agree with the above...If you want a great near stock setup that runs pretty darn good you can't beat the old (but updated) 505 by Lunati.

It's a updated version of the the factory performance cam you could buy back in the day over the ford parts counter. It was a well kept secret of street racers. I've installed the 505 Lunati Cam in a few motors including my own and its a Great all around cam for the street. Sounds great Performs great. If you want a Balanced proven matched package you do the 505 complete kit-- larger pushrods WITH A RESTRICTED OIL PASSAGE--Ford motorsport bolt in roller rockers--edlebrock performer manifold--manley one piece valves--quick fuel 730ss carb with 1" spacer--Headers--x pipe exhaust--Cobra jet heads matched cc's and shaved..

 

[barnett468]

absolutely ridiculous .

I would use joe gibbs break in oil.

Not for a flat tappet cam.

https://540ratblog.wordpress.com/2013/06/20/motor-oil-wear-test-ranking/

Their racing oil is decent but their break in oil is at the absolute bottom of the list.

i am quite familiar with that thread and it is people that don't understand oil very well should not attempt to dissuade others from using products that are perfectly fine.

i have been building cars and engines for a living for around 40 years and have used various break in methods and have used joe gibbs break in oil many times and i have never had a cam on an engine i built sustain damage.

 

[Mystic Fish]

absolutely ridiculous .

I would use joe gibbs break in oil.

Not for a flat tappet cam.

https://540ratblog.wordpress.com/2013/06/20/motor-oil-wear-test-ranking/

Their racing oil is decent but their break in oil is at the absolute bottom of the list.

i am quite familiar with that thread and it is people that don't understand oil very well should not attempt to dissuade others from using products that are perfectly fine.

i have been building cars and engines for a living for around 40 years and have used various break in methods and have used joe gibbs break in oil many times and i have never had a cam on an engine i built sustain damage.

I have to agree with Barnett on this one, and the cam card actually names joe Gibbs break in oil as to oil to use.

 

[barnett468]

Oil discussions can be long and heated, and it is a subject where the more you know, the more you realize how little you know.

ZDDP levels are important but they are NOT the sole determining factor of an oils overall protective qualities and neither is a load bearing test machine.

Also, as far as that cam goes, I know you were only asking about the springs, but I build high perf engines and have been a comp and crane cam dealer for maybe 25 years, and i have nothing to gain by you changing the cam, but i can't impress enough on you what a horrible, horrible, horrible, cam that is for your app . An engine is going to last a very, very, long time, so the owner is going to have to live with what he has for a very, very, long time, so even though it would be a hassle to return it and you might loose some money in the deal, a few dollars should not be the determining factor in whether you change the cam . I could spend hours trying to explain cam design to you but it wouldn't help, and just reading a short paragraph or two about cam design from some cam mfg won't help either, but again, the longer the valves stay open, the less compression an engine will have . lsa and icl overlap are also contributing factors but one factor no novice ever considers is ramp rate/acceleration rate which can only be calculated if you also have the duration @ .200" of lift.

With the advancements in cam technologies since that dinosaur was "designed", that cam really doesn't even have a place in engine building today.

There is a very good reason why the comp cams XE and Magnum series cams outsell all other styles and mfg's by around 10 to 1 . Lunatis Voodoo series was designed Harold Berkshire whom is the same person that designed Comp Cams XE and some other series . Howards also makes extremely good cams, and many are better than the XE and Voodoo cams.

Comp Cams also owns Lunati and Voodoo.

 

[MeZapU]

Barnett, what is the name of your business? I'd like to look you up.

Your polarizing comments have been noted and dealt with on other websites. In recent years you have been banned from at least 3 mustang oriented and different forums for exactly what you are doing here. You don't seem to learn that your MO really should change.

There is more than your point of view.

 

[barnett468]

i am quite familiar with that thread and it is people that don't understand oil very well should not attempt to dissuade others from using products that are perfectly fine.

You mean like.... a camshaft?

The difference is that I happen to know exactly what I am talking about since I do this for a living and not as an occasional hobbyist and the place he is got the cam from does not seem to offer other brands unlike an auto parts store where you can buy any brand of oil you want, therefore, the cam supplier has to sell him what they have irregardless of how horrible it is for his app . This isn't really all that hard to figure out.

.

 

[MeZapU]

The difference is that I happen to know exactly what I am talking about since I do this for a living and not as an occasional hobbyist and the place he is got the cam from does not seem to offer other brands unlike an auto parts store where you can buy any brand of oil you want, therefore, the cam supplier has to sell him what they have irregardless of how horrible it is for his app . This isn't really all that hard to figure out.

.

Ego much?

You know what they say about the people who think they know what they are talking about?

Again, What is the name of your business?

 

[barnett468]

The difference is that I happen to know exactly what I am talking about since I do this for a living and not as an occasional hobbyist and the place he is got the cam from does not seem to offer other brands unlike an auto parts store where you can buy any brand of oil you want, therefore, the cam supplier has to sell him what they have irregardless of how horrible it is for his app . This isn't really all that hard to figure out.

.

Ego much?

You know what they say about the people who think they know what they are talking about?

Again, What is the name of your business?

No ego, simple facts . I certainly don't know it all but I know what I know.

You're the one that asked me a question, if you don't like my replies, stop asking me questions . Some people prefer to go to a doctor or a mechanic that is confident in their skill and knowledge instead of one that says "Well I hope the operation turns out ok for ya" . Again, it's really not that hard to figure out, at least for some people.

.

.

.

Your polarizing comments have been noted and dealt with on other websites. In recent years you have been banned from at least 3 mustang oriented and different forums for exactly what you are doing here. You don't seem to learn that your MO really should change. There is more than your point of view.

Really, that's odd because more than one person has posted under that name and it appears that I have 19 positive reputation points for my posts on this site including some coming from moderators and I have exactly ZERO "warning' points therefore, I suggest you don't post about things you know ABSOLUTELY NOTHING ABOUT.

Also, there is a vast difference between opinions and imperical facts, and it seems that Mystic Fish AND his cam mfg happens to agree with ME and NOT YOU regarding the Joe Gibbs Break In oil you so definitively stated shouldn't be used.

I am also not the only one that mentioned that there are better cams for his app, lol.

Any further harassment by you will be reported to the moderators.

 

[Paul of MO]

Oil discussions can be long and heated, and it is a subject where the more you know, the more you realize how little you know.

ZDDP levels are important but they are NOT the sole determining factor of an oils overall protective qualities and neither is a load bearing test machine.

Also, as far as that cam goes, I know you were only asking about the springs, but I build high perf engines and have been a comp and crane cam dealer for maybe 25 years, and i have nothing to gain by you changing the cam, but i can't impress enough on you what a horrible, horrible, horrible, cam that is for your app . An engine is going to last a very, very, long time, so the owner is going to have to live with what he has for a very, very, long time, so even though it would be a hassle to return it and you might loose some money in the deal, a few dollars should not be the determining factor in whether you change the cam . I could spend hours trying to explain cam design to you but it wouldn't help, and just reading a short paragraph or two about cam design from some cam mfg won't help either, but again, the longer the valves stay open, the less compression an engine will have . lsa and icl overlap are also contributing factors but one factor no novice ever considers is ramp rate/acceleration rate which can only be calculated if you also have the duration @ .200" of lift.

With the advancements in cam technologies since that dinosaur was "designed", that cam really doesn't even have a place in engine building today.

There is a very good reason why the comp cams XE and Magnum series cams outsell all other styles and mfg's by around 10 to 1 . Lunatis Voodoo series was designed Harold Berkshire whom is the same person that designed Comp Cams XE and some other series . Howards also makes extremely good cams, and many are better than the XE and Voodoo cams.

Comp Cams also owns Lunati and Voodoo.

This is a valid post for once from this man - the cam you are planning to use will be absolutely horrible in a street driven vehicle. High idle, No vacuum, no low end power, and will run out of high end power under 6,000 rpm. Other than that it is perfect.

Go to 351C.net and with one simple search you will find many excellent off the shelf cam choices with real world impressions shared. Howard cams are excellent and if you give them custom grind specs they are always right on the money. I have bought over 100 custom grinds from Howards over the years with great results.

Very Drivable but FUN!

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-sk32-242-4?seid=srese1&gclid=CNzb7sOpvMsCFQwxaQodTmMDKA

A Little Annoying on a street driven car but a little more FUN!

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-cl32-246-4?seid=srese1&gclid=CNjJzuupvMsCFQcLaQodjcwJJA

(4V's like a little more lift than these off the shelf grinds but the extra $$$ is not worth the cost of a custom grind)

---------

Now for break in oil. I do not understand the big deal and the angst.

Build the engine

Use generous amounts of assembly lube.

Use a drill to spin the oil pump - just long enough to see that you have good oil pressure.

Use a known carburetor that will start the engine and run the engine. I usually pull one off of a running and recently driven car to eliminate the unknown carb variable.

Static time the engine and use a timing light to make sure you have spark when the distributor hits about 10 deg.

Fill the fuel bowls with a little gas down the carb to prime the engine

Use a high quality oil such as Mobile 1 full synthetic 5w30 or 10w40

Fire the car and if it does not start right up do not let it crank and crank and crank.

Figure out the problem - spark? air? fuel? and fix it.

Start the car and set the idle to 3000 rpm and let it run there for 30 min. If it needs to be shut down then shut it down but do not let it idle. Do not let it get overly hot. Extra shop fans and even a garden sprayer to mist the radiator. Plus this will give you something to do for 30 min. Set a timer so you do not end early.

Change the oil and filter

Run engine at 2500 for 30 min

Set final idle and timing

Drive normally for 500 miles. City and Highway driving (no hot rodding).

Change the oil and filter - DONE

- Paul of MO

 

[Qcode351mach]

Oil discussions can be long and heated, and it is a subject where the more you know, the more you realize how little you know.

ZDDP levels are important but they are NOT the sole determining factor of an oils overall protective qualities and neither is a load bearing test machine.

Also, as far as that cam goes, I know you were only asking about the springs, but I build high perf engines and have been a comp and crane cam dealer for maybe 25 years, and i have nothing to gain by you changing the cam, but i can't impress enough on you what a horrible, horrible, horrible, cam that is for your app . An engine is going to last a very, very, long time, so the owner is going to have to live with what he has for a very, very, long time, so even though it would be a hassle to return it and you might loose some money in the deal, a few dollars should not be the determining factor in whether you change the cam . I could spend hours trying to explain cam design to you but it wouldn't help, and just reading a short paragraph or two about cam design from some cam mfg won't help either, but again, the longer the valves stay open, the less compression an engine will have . lsa and icl overlap are also contributing factors but one factor no novice ever considers is ramp rate/acceleration rate which can only be calculated if you also have the duration @ .200" of lift.

With the advancements in cam technologies since that dinosaur was "designed", that cam really doesn't even have a place in engine building today.

There is a very good reason why the comp cams XE and Magnum series cams outsell all other styles and mfg's by around 10 to 1 . Lunatis Voodoo series was designed Harold Berkshire whom is the same person that designed Comp Cams XE and some other series . Howards also makes extremely good cams, and many are better than the XE and Voodoo cams.

Comp Cams also owns Lunati and Voodoo.

This is a valid post for once from this wise man - the cam you are planning to use will be absolutely horrible in a street driven vehicle. High idle, No vacuum, no low end power, and will run out of high end power under 6,000 rpm. Other than that it is perfect.

Go to 351C.net and with one simple search you will find many excellent off the shelf cam choices with real world impressions shared. Howard cams are excellent and if you give them custom grind specs they are always right on the money. I have bought over 100 custom grinds from Howards over the years with great results.

Very Drivable but FUN!

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-sk32-242-4?seid=srese1&gclid=CNzb7sOpvMsCFQwxaQodTmMDKA

A Little Annoying on a street driven car but a little more FUN!

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-cl32-246-4?seid=srese1&gclid=CNjJzuupvMsCFQcLaQodjcwJJA

(4V's like a little more lift than these off the shelf grinds but the extra $$$ is not worth the cost of a custom grind)

---------

Now for break in oil. I do not understand the big deal and the angst.

Build the engine

Use generous amounts of assembly lube.

Use a drill to spin the oil pump - just long enough to see that you have good oil pressure.

Use a known carburetor that will start the engine and run the engine. I usually pull one off of a running and recently driven car to eliminate the unknown carb variable.

Static time the engine and use a timing light to make sure you have spark when the distributor hits about 10 deg.

Fill the fuel bowls with a little gas down the carb to prime the engine

Use a high quality oil such as Mobile 1 full synthetic 5w30 or 10w40

Fire the car and if it does not start right up do not let it crank and crank and crank.

Figure out the problem - spark? air? fuel? and fix it.

Start the car and set the idle to 3000 rpm and let it run there for 30 min. If it needs to be shut down then shut it down but do not let it idle. Do not let it get overly hot. Extra shop fans and even a garden sprayer to mist the radiator. Plus this will give you something to do for 30 min. Set a timer so you do not end early.

Change the oil and filter

Run engine at 2500 for 30 min

Set final idle and timing

Drive normally for 500 miles. City and Highway driving (no hot rodding).

Change the oil and filter - DONE

- Paul of MO

Dang Paul you nailed it right on the head

Pretty much how I've done all my break ins on motors over the years..Well laid out and a simple recipe for success !

 

[Mystic Fish]

I really appreciate all of the conversation and input on the camshaft choice for the 351 4V and we may reconsider changing to a more suitable choice for the street motor.

The only thing that surprised me about the way this post went down was the perceived negativity. There are really some knowledge people on this site and I value input from everyone.

I will also concede that maybe I should have began with a better question like the best cam choice for a stock 10.7:1 compression ratio 4 speed car with a 3.25 rear.

I have certainly learned my lesson.

Jeff-

 

[Paul of MO]

I really appreciate all of the conversation and input on the camshaft choice for the 351 4V and we may reconsider changing to a more suitable choice for the street motor.

The only thing that surprised me about the way this post went down was the perceived negativity. There are really some knowledge people on this site and I value input from everyone.

I will also concede that maybe I should have began with a better question like the best cam choice for a stock 10.7:1 compression ratio 4 speed car with a 3.25 rear.

I have certainly learned my lesson.

Jeff-

No lesson to be learned - you are OK and asked a perfectly valid question. The second of the 2 cam links I put up will be perfect for what you are building with the 4 speed. 10.7 is a little steep for a street driven car and will force you to buy premium fuel and/or you will have to ****** your timing a bit and give up some performance. Not a big deal but it makes the car just a little bit more of a hassle to go get ice cream with the grand kids.

I like the fish as well!

- Paul of MO

Oh - welcome to the group!

 

[barnett468]

This is a valid post for once from this man

Your comment is unwarranted and abrasive and has been reported to a moderator due to the fact that you continue to make comments like this to me and others and because you gave me a negative reputation point for no valid reason other than the fact that I disagreed with you on a previous post . I also sent emails to a MODERATOR and ADMINISTRATOR regarding your behavior and they both gave me POSITIVE reputation points in the past.

You can also expect several negative reputation points from me regarding your many abrasive posts now since you want to play this childish game.

Use a high quality oil such as Mobile 1 full synthetic 5w30 or 10w40

It is very unwise to use synthetic oil for break in because the rings may not seat properly . They will in fact seat more easily with regular oil . This is even stated by AMSOIL and all they sell is synthetic oil .

Also, many synthetic oils lack sufficient amounts of ZDDP to adequately protect the cam.

.


.

.

BREAK IN PROCEDURE

The following is what I do

Tighten all the hoses, then tighten them again.

Check the intake bolts for being tight even though you previously tightened them.

Make sure the timing marks are easily readable . You can use liquid white out to put a line at TDC and one very tiny dot at 10 degrees BTDC and two tiny dots at 20 and three dots at 30 and four at 40 and put some on the end of the pointer.

Use break in oil.

Remove the thermostat to insure there are no air pockets or make sure there are none if you use a thermostat and use straight water . Do not use antifreeze.

Spin the oil pump for 20 seconds with a 1/2" drill . A smaller drill may burn out . Hold the drill firmly because it may try and rip out of your hands.

Rotate the crank 180 degrees and spin pump for 10 seconds

Rotate the crank 180 degrees and spin pump for 10 seconds

Rotate the crank 180 degrees and spin pump for 10 seconds

Rotate the crank 180 degrees and spin pump for 10 seconds

Rotating the crank will insure that at some point all the valves are closed so they can fill up completely.

Remove and plug the distributor vacuum advance hose and plug it.

Remove all the plug wires except for number one cylinder then crank the engine over and set the timing to 10 degrees BTDC then reconnect wires . Make sure there is room to advance the distributor farther if needed . If there is not enough room, re-clock it one tooth . Reconnect wires afterwards.

If you have a Holley style carb, you can prefill the carb with gas thru the vent holes in the top until it is just below the inspection holes in the float bowl or below the center of the clear sight windows . One way this can be done is with a plastic ketchup bottle.

Adjust the choke so it is fully open.

Have a screw driver ready to adjust the idle speed with.

Have someone start the car while I operate the choke and throttle.

Rev it to around 2000 rpms as soon as it starts.

Release the choke after around 15 seconds then turn the idle screw in to maintain the rpm at 2000.

Check the timing to make sure it is around 25 degrees . If the timing is too low, it can cause the engine to get hot and actually make headers glow red hot.

Place a fan directly in front of the radiator blowing at the rad.

After a few minutes, the rpm will increase . Reduce it to 2000 rpm and continue to adjust it as necessary throughout the break in process.

Let it run for 25 minutes.

Watch the hoses for leaks and check the temp gauge .

WARNING - If you work the throttle manually, wear goggles to protect your eyes from flying debris.

.

 

[Paul of MO]

Whats the name of your business again?

 

[MeZapU]

Whats the name of your business again?

x4

I do not believe he has a legitimate answer.

I must apologize to Mystic Fish(the original poster of this thread). Sorry it was hijacked. I will attempt to start over.

Unfortunately, finding a truly informative thread about a good camshaft choice for our 351c engines is near impossible because of the injected perception of what is "good" for one person is not necessarily "good" for the next person. A seemingly endless combination of factors can go into a camshaft selection. I only feel comfortable offering advice from my personal experiences of working on my Mach 1 over the past 21 years. Building two separate engines for it over that time and putting tens of thousands of miles of road behind me. I have built several hundred ford, GM and mopar engines in my early years working in an engine rebuilding shop, and my years working in a local garage before I joined the Air Force 23 years ago. During that time I have honed my skills and developed many idiosyncrasies that work for me when I'm assembling an engine. I have been published. I have had failures when I pushed the limits. If someone touts that they have NEVER had an issue in this industry/hobby after 40 years of doing this then I need to know the name of their business and throw money at them.

There is no cookie cutter answer to your query. With the Erson camshaft you selected, while I have no experience with it I find it hard to believe that a company would develop and market a lousy product that does not perform as described, given the proper application specifics were adhered to, and market it for years and years without listening to owner feedback that it sucks.

Believing there are more "modern" camshaft profiles that deliver better performance is one of the biggest myths of the industry. It's how they further their sales campaign. If modernization is always happening, then how is it I can buy the same spec camshaft today from said modern company that they sold me 17 years ago? Drivability intentions(timing events), and matching lift to airflow capability is what you are trying to achieve with camshaft selection. When companies tout modern profiles it usually includes all of the rest of the modern supporting valvetrain to match it's capabilities. Modern cylinder heads, modern intake manifolds, exhausts, valve spring technology, roller cams, etc. Put the modern cam with the stockish valvetrain components, stock intake manifold, exhaust, torque converter, etc, and the claimed gains disappear. Camshaft grinders can predict engine performance and machine camshafts from computer programs that calculate the best profile for a given application accurate to the ten thousandth of a degree. Again, modern performance claims in the camshaft industry really only support modern engine combinations. If you have a mostly vintage combination, then the camshaft company's older grind, likely is very well suited to the application description. There are many people that still like to install the vintage solid lifter BOSS 351 camshaft into our engines. It's still a great performer, in it's intended application. Could someone install one that performs better? Sure, but what does "better" mean? More horsepower, better fuel economy, less emissions, wider power band, higher power band, more torque? What works better for one person will not always work better for the next. And then what does that new better part cost? What are the gains to be had for that cost? Are the gains worth the cost to the individual? All subjective. I think I've said the same thing like three times now.

Howard Cams have a very good reputation as do others. I have my cam guy who I've been using for the past 11 years now. You need to be careful what you ask for because you get exactly that. He uses different lobes from various manufacturers in the industry to design his camshafts. For the same engine once I got a cam from him by COMP, then after some combination changes, the next one came from Lunati. Just because one company owns another does not mean they share proprietary information.

Other engines I have built in the past I have used off the shelf grinds and couldn't be more happy with the way they perform.

Paul of MO had some good suggestions, as did others.

If you really want to delve into Cleveland performance, you need to look across the pond to Australia.

I will not delve back into the oil subject as the topic is too volatile in present company.

Hopefully you can find what you are looking for, it works well for you and meets your expectations.

 

[barnett468]

I have built several hundred ford, GM and mopar engines in my early years working in an engine rebuilding shop, and my years working in a local garage before I joined the Air Force 23 years ago.

I have been published.

Ego much?

I agree with the second comment he made.

If you really want to delve into Cleveland performance' date=' you need to look across the pond to Australia.[/quote']

Ego much?

I again agree with the second comment he made.

His first comment is extremely offensive, condescending and insulting to every American engine builder and cam designer etc.

It is also contradictory since in post 17 he admittedly got a camshaft from an AMERICAN cam designer named Ed Curtis, so if australia is the place to get the Cleveland power why is he using a US cam designer instead of an australian one?

It is also contradictory because if he truly believes that australia has people that are much more knowledgeable about Clevelands than people in the US are, WHY IS HE HERE?

Why is he not on sites with his fellow australians instead of hanging out on one that is filled with complete and utter morons because we Americans don't know diddly squat about Cleveland engine building even though it was designed over here in the good ol' USA and wasn't put in use in australia until a few years later?

There are SEVERAL big Mustang forums in australia including a forum that is 100% dedicated to Clevelands only that he could get all that great engine building info from, but oddly enough one of the well known people on that site that help people with cams is also an American.

There is an australian cam company named crow cams, but even though according to him, australians know more about performance Cleveland engine building than Americans do, US made cams outsell them by maybe 30 to 1.

There are definitely good engine builders in australia . There are also good parts designers like Scott Cook and good parts like CHI heads which are sometimes used in the Engine Masters Challenge in heavily modified form . They also have a decent carb guy named zok.

.

.

 

[barnett468]

.

Wow, if you want to cut through all the confusion and unnecessary rhetoric, contact the people at the links below . They are some of the most knowledgeable people that you can currently get on the phone to talk about camshafts with.

I can also guarantee you with 110% certainty that NO cam designer in the US will tell you that Joe Gibbs Break In Oil is bad to break engines in on like mezapo did even though they may suggest something else that they prefer more.

Mark

http://www.bulletcams.com/

Chris

http://www.straubtechnologies.com/

.

 

[Mister 4x4]

OK guys, let's dial this back a notch and continue to keep it civil.

Building engines is like changing your screen saver in Windows - there is no one way to do it that's better than the others - we all get results in the end. It's hard to argue with folks who work in the industry and have the expertise and experience that comes with that, just as it's hard to argue with those who have done it for years with continued excellent results. Everybody has brought value to this discussion, and there is a LOT of good information in this thread - let's not muddy it up by bumping egos.

Besides, none of this would even be in question if everybody went "roller everything" like I did. :whistling: