Frame Off Resto

[ITMike5.0]

I've recently been looking into whether or not I want to go for a full "frame off" restoration.  My car has a lot of rust as you can see in the pic below.  I feel like if I do not go all the way with this project and get this on a rotisserie there is definitely rust that will be missed and remain on the frame or underside of the body.

If you already did or are in the process of doing a full frame off restoration, please share your experience and some pics of the process.  I am very interested in going this route and would love to hear all of the good/bad involved.  It seems like you really need to have a lot of space to be able to do this.  I am working with a two car garage that has maybe 9 or 10ft high ceilings at mos.  So I'm not sure this would even work in my current space or if I would need to outsource this part of my project or borrow space from a friend in his large garage.

See pics below of the underside of my 72.  I'm sure you will all agree a full frame off resto is probably my best bet. If not I'd love to hear of ways around this!  Lol 

Looking forward to seeing your pics and hearing all about your experiences with this.

Thanks!

 

[Pastel Blue]

Good luck.

 

[72HCODE]

those pics don't tell you much.

here is what will. you want to inspect the frame between the firewall and the radiator. hidden under the upper front A-arms of the suspension is the top of the frame rails. this area collects all the dirt and road grime and acts as a sponge for water making the worst rust. So you want to clean out the top of the frame rail where the front shock tower is really well. and look in there with a flash light. if the frame rails looks like swiss cheese; Junk the car, unless it is some Boss 351 or SCJ it will cost you more then the car is ever worth to repair. you will also want to inspect the lower shock tower for cracks where it joins with the frame rails.

cowl rust is not a big deal but expensive to fix. battery apron is known to rot. truck floor and inside floor and seat pans will have rust, but if your front end looks like this;

stop and find another car, because you will basically need a new front clip and $10,000+ in metal work.

surface rusting of the frame might look bad but the frame can be sanded and painted and be fine as long is it is solid and inspected carefully.

oh and the pictures above are of my car. Hind-sight 20/20 i should of junked it.

http://s1031.photobucket.com/user/72hcode/library/towers%20and%20rails?sort=2&page=1

when you have rust of that caliber in that area of the car chances are the rest of the car will be hiding equally bad rust.

when i bought the car i did not know what to look for, and you would be amazed how you can paint undercoating over 40 years of dirt and make something look solid when a quick stab with a screw driver says otherwise.

 

[clevelandcoupe]

+1 on 72 Hcode advise and always buy the best possible car you can afford !!!

My car was exactly the same as his and I have a ton of hours of metal work !!!

 

[clevelandcoupe]

A couple of after the metal work was completed !!!

 

[johnwanzel]

Start with media blasting the entire car after stripping it down to a bare shell. You won't know how extensive the rust is untill you do. So far, I've replaced front crossmember, front inner fender aprons, rear fender aprons, radiator support, cowl assembly, 1 piece floorpan, roof, full quarter panels and tail light panel. It's not easy but most of your time will be prep. I did all of my work on a body cart, not a rotisserie.

 

[ITMike5.0]

those pics don't tell you much.

here is what will. you want to inspect the frame between the firewall and the radiator. hidden under the upper front A-arms of the suspension is the top of the frame rails. this area collects all the dirt and road grime and acts as a sponge for water making the worst rust. So you want to clean out the top of the frame rail where the front shock tower is really well. and look in there with a flash light. if the frame rails looks like swiss cheese; Junk the car, unless it is some Boss 351 or SCJ it will cost you more then the car is ever worth to repair. you will also want to inspect the lower shock tower for cracks where it joins with the frame rails.

cowl rust is not a big deal but expensive to fix. battery apron is known to rot. truck floor and inside floor and seat pans will have rust, but if your front end looks like this;

 stop and find another car, because you will basically need a new front clip and $10,000+ in metal work.

surface rusting of the frame might look bad but the frame can be sanded and painted and be fine as long is it is solid and inspected carefully.

oh and the pictures above are of my car. Hind-sight 20/20 i should of junked it.

http://s1031.photobucket.com/user/72hcode/library/towers%20and%20rails?sort=2&page=1

when you have rust of that caliber in that area of the car chances are the rest of the car will be hiding equally bad rust.

when i bought the car i did not know what to look for, and you would be amazed how you can paint undercoating over 40 years of dirt and make something look solid when a quick stab with a screw driver says otherwise.

So what would you say would be a good starting point for me to get to where I will be able to see these problem areas?  Pull fenders, front end, hood, wheels and suspension...and the motor? 

Then if bad enough put it all back together and get rid of the car?

 

[Mister 4x4]

My first question would be, "What are your skill levels when it comes to mechanical, metal work, and welding?" Then, I would ask, "How bad do you want this and how far are you willing to go (time, patience, and money) toward restoring this particular car?"  And finally, "How well adapted is your facility toward doing the work you need to do (as in, do you have the right tools, can you get them, do you have enough room, etc.?)?"

If you have decent or better skills, this won't be too difficult to tackle.  If this is the car you simply must have, then you'll need lots of all three: time, patience, and money.  If you have a good place to work with access to the tools you need, you can do this.

But first - and foremost - you need to find out what you have.  Again, if that is all just surface rust, once you eliminate it, you can go forward to putting the car back together.  If it's more than just surface rust, you might need to weigh your options and start looking at the car as a parts donor and maybe look around for a better specimen to restore.

Yes, mine also was a disaster from the get-go... possibly even one of the biggest disasters ever seen to date.  When I started out, I honestly had no idea what I was in for... but I had lots of time, lots of patience, and I knew I would be spending a big chunk of change to see it through.  I also had lots of determination, since I had so many haters telling me I couldn't do it - that can be a big motivator... trust me.  My skills were decent enough, but improved greatly after I began, and my confidence shot through the roof after I finished swapping the entire front clip.  A lot of the haters got real quiet real fast after that, and most have since eaten their words.

For those reasons, based on my own personal circumstances, I can't tell you to simply junk the car without first finding out what you have to work with.  As Dan mentioned, the major components of the front clip can be deal-breakers, especially since they are not reproduced.  If you have to go to another car for major replacement parts, you might consider jumping ship to that car instead, depending on its issues.  I tried to buy my donor car, but the salvage yard wouldn't sell it to me (title issues) - which would've been a helluva lot quicker... but then I would've had a "Mach 1 Clone," not a real Mach 1 since the donor car was a '72 Sportsroof.

At the very least, you need to pull the hood, fenders, engine & transmission, front suspension & steering, and dig into the front clip with some rust removal tools/methods.  If you find that it's just surface rust, count yourself lucky, finish stripping the car, and get it media blasted, dipped, et al., so you can start fresh with the rust abatement/metal replacement.  If it's bad or worse, you'll have a decision to make, as to whether to continue with the hard work, or go find another car.

Hope this helps!

 

[clevelandcoupe]

Great advice !!!

 

[ITMike5.0]

OK guys thanks for all the great advice.  I think I have enough to get started and know what I should be looking for.  The longer I own this car the more I become tied to it and that obviously makes me more and more committed to this restoration.  I will never claim to have a pot of gold lying around and unlimited resources to throw at this project, but I'm not too worried about the length of the project at this point.  If I'm going to do it...I have to do it right or I will never be happy with the end result.  At first I would have said "maybe I'll keep the car...maybe I'll sell it" but to be honest if I go through this and do a lot of the work myself I will most definitely hold on to this car for a long long time.  I have a son and a daughter so I could see this staying in the family for years to come. 

I don't have much experience with metal work or even restoring a car for that matter...this is my first classic restoration ever.  I am in the computer field and I have always enjoyed working with my hands.  I know that doesn't mean much but I am a fast study and am not afraid to get my hands dirty.  I think I have some valuable resources here on this site and I also have friends in my area that are mechanics and also one who spent years doing paint/body work who also has a nice big garage behind his house.  So if it gets to the point where I need help (which I'm sure it will) I will most likely turn to him, especially if the need for extra space arises. 

I may also go the body cart route rather than a rotisserie.  I really don't think I have room for a full rotisserie.

At this point if I find the frame to be in terrible shape I would be very bummed and disappointed.  On the other hand...you live and you learn.  If I were to ever purchase another classic car I would bring out a team of myself and friends to look it over to the extreme. 

By the way...some of you guys do some awesome metal and paint/body work!  Who is interested in a trip to Southwest Florida!!???  lollerz

 

[ITMike5.0]

There must have been more frame off restos using a rotisserie or at least a body cart?   ::shrug::

Post some pics or a link to your build thread.

 

[midlife]

These Mustangs are unibody construction, so there is no frame to take anything off of from. Everything is welded together except for hood, fenders, doors, engine, suspension, and various smaller parts.

Good luck with your endeavor: it will be a learning experience!

 

[OzCoupe72]

G'day ITMike

I was and still are in a similar situation when I bought my coupe

If I knew what I know now I may have had second thoughts but don't have any regrets except the blowout in my budget by a few hundred percent!

Luckily mine so far only has the usual rust in the cowl, floor, trunk drop offs and some small spots in the doors/quarters but seeing as I will be doing all the repairs myself the main cost is in time spent which I have plenty

I considered a rotisserie but space was an issue plus the cost of steel is pretty high these days so I work on it out in the open as my shed is too small and is fulll of parts/tools etc

Some good advice by the others and yes you should investigate how extensive the rust is and decide which way to go

For my vehicle it will definitely cost more than the car is worth despite doing all the work myself but for me the experience i will gain plus the pleasure of driving the finished product will far outweigh the expense

Only real problem I face is keeping the cost to do this from the missus!

Good luck with your project and will look forward to your prognosis

 

[72HCODE]

before you go too crazy taking the car apart, you can diagnose areas just by cleaning, poking, and inspection.

you don't need to take apart the suspension to see how bad things are on the front end. you can dig around and look closely to determine concerns and dig deeper.

you can pull up the interior carpet and look at the floors.

you can inspect the rockers, look in the trunk and see previous repairs. look around and see how much bondo is on the car.

you can peak behind the dash from the floor board and look at the cowl, have a friend shine a light into the cowl and if you see stars of light then you know the cowl is rusted out and will need attention.

you can see stress cracks in the unibody and find weak spots.

this is all before digging deeper and depends on your skills and abilities.

when i started i was just a guy i'm not a mechanic i started with a car much worse then i thought possible, a scammer that sold me on it, and a screw driver. I had to learn everything about the car and figure out how bad it is.

After i threw more money then you can imagine into it, i still have a car that needs more money then you can image to even get started. in short you see what you have, if you find concerns you dig deeper. if what you see on the surface is bad then everything underneath will be even worse. Rust is like an Onion the skin might look ok and the core is Rotted beyond hope.

do not get attached to a car until you have a good knowledge of its condition that was part of the mistake i made early on, otherwise you will just have an endless money pit.

Metal issues is just a fraction of figuring out a cars condition. you still have electrical, mechanical, Engine, etc.

you want to know the documentation on the car what was it born with does it still have original major parts, is it a desired optioned car is it numbers matching.

all that together helps decide.

if right off the bat the car needs 20K in metal before paint then you need to figure out your abort point.

that doesn't even scratch 5-12K on an engine rebuild 5-15K on mechanical work. interiors will be 5-15K to refurb as well.

if you find the car is pretty solid and the paint is decent then you can spend the money on other things the car needs to get it roadworthy.

if you do this all yourself the costs will be zero on labor. if you need to farm out a total restoration you could be looking at 50-150K total cost depending on many factors.

hourly rates by me are like 120$ at a garage. i had over 300 hours in metal fabrication and repair and this was years ago when it was 35$ an hour.

take things as a whole.

the hard truth is this: you can find another 71-73 mustang that was restored well by somebody else depending on options and trim level from 12-60K if you look around for a finished car. the former owner will never see that money back on the restoration and you get a good car right off the bat that might need minor things that match your skill set.

-------

my car was a boat anchor and i didn't know.

just talking about metal work on my car which i never painted i just bombed it in the driveway to make it look ok from 20 feet.

i additionally needed to rebuild my engine for over 5K and it still don't run 100% right.

i needed a new transmission after i spent money to try and save the old one that was not original to the car.

new rear end 3rd member.

complete interior restoration with wiring restoration.

exhaust, steering,suspension, brakes all needed complete gutting and rebuilding from scratch.

sourcing tons of missing and replacing incorrect parts for the better part of 4 years.

-------------

so start slow and careful build a profile of the car you have, test and inspect everything on it to see what you need.

as another hidden cost. my car was born with A/C when i bought the car the scammer Owner told me the A/C was good it just needed a new fan blower switch and a fill up on Freon.

when i got the car i could see it needed the switch and nothing worked on it... years later when i got into the A/C system rebuild. i need a complete Climate control box all new vacuum motors, a new climate controller and all the electrical, hoses, compressor, condensor, etc.. to the cost of well over 5000$ to replace everything and even find the parts to do it.

 

[mach71351c]

Take some time and look at the individual  build threads page. I'm sure you will see what you would be in for.

 

[Pastel Blue]

I am one of those guys who will have over $100k in my build... most went on the body and paint where 600 hours was invested in a supposedly AZ rust free car. The rust wasn't the issue; the years of abuse, being driven 12 months of the year, at least two previous rear end hits and my desire for perfect body and paint all added up to big $$$. 

Personally, for what I was looking to achieve, I would not have considered a rusted out car as a starting point. Even if it was a rare car like my current 429cj vert. I have been there and done that... If you are going to spend big $$$ on a rotisserie restoration, IMO start with a solid fairly rust free body. The drivetrain must be original to the car and in order to keep future value, build it back to factory spec. My humble opinion only...

 

[Mister 4x4]

There must have been more frame off restos using a rotisserie or at least a body cart?   ::shrug::

Post some pics or a link to your build thread.

I don't actually have a build thread, per se.  It also looks like the link to my FB photo album is broken - I'll fix that later... but I think you've already looked through all my pics.

Mine was a mess, as you know.  Dan's spot-on with cost estimate ranges, and a lot of that is based on doing things yourself.  You also have my spreadsheet, which outlines the lion's share of the parts that are actually available in the reproduction market.  I spent some money in a few places I didn't need to (soda blasting the fenders and valances I never wound up using and I now have 3 windshield wiper motors because I kept forgetting where I put them, for instance), but the bottom line and costs you see there are all the cost of parts only - no tax, no shipping charges, and no labor (except the paint, sand blasting, and machine shop work).  That bottom line number would be significantly high if I'd cared to track the taxes and shipping costs, or farmed out the work and simply paid someone else to do it (they would've also laughed me out of their shops if I'd taken my rusty pile to them, anyway).

I went the easy [and somewhat cheaper] way of restomod, so my options were much less limited than a faithful restoration.  Using things like an AOD transmission (that was free to me), Dynacorn sheet metal, Classic Auto Air HVAC, TMI Products upholstery, ACC carpet, etc., got me a lot further down the road, money-wise, than running down the NOS, OEM, and factory-correct replacement parts.

I was also fortunate in having the Auto Hobby Shop at the Air Force base where I work at my disposal.  There was lots of drama [at times] going that route, but having the right tools, space, and help when I needed it was huge for my project.  I replaced/repaired everything using the drive-on lift, Miller welder, plasma cutter, air tools, chop saw, bench vises, etc., provided by the shop.  I did have to buy some of my own specialized tools, and refills for the die-grinders, cut-off wheels, etc., but that money spent was trivial in comparison to having to equip a shop of my own.  I was truly fortunate in that regard.

Pastel Blue's car is an ultra-rare, magazine-celebrated (MM - Rare Finds) car that will be absolutely stunning when he's done with it, as he's sticking to the plan of faithful restoration (even down to the OE factory-correct fasteners - a place where nobody would blame a guy for cutting corners if he had to).  Rounding up all of the NOS, OEM, and factory replacement parts is a helluva thing to take on - especially, these days when the stockpiles just aren't there anymore.  You almost have to get lucky finding someone who happens to have their own project they gave up on and is willing to part with stuff that's been squirreled away for decades.

Take Dan's advice and check out those areas he mentioned - find out what you have before you go any further.  If you decide to unload it and go a different direction, you'll probably be further ahead.  I'm hoping I'm right and that's just surface rust on the frame rails that can be overcome, even though you're still likely to need to replace the cowl, floor pans, trunk area, etc., as that metal is thinner and more susceptible to rusting away - all of which you'll still need to decide if that's too much to take on or not.

 

[ITMike5.0]

Thanks guys for the additional input and clarifying a few things for me. Yes...this is my first rodeo so I need all the help I can get. I will look at the areas mentioned and update this post with additional pics after doing so. I will definitely want to get this right before committing to the long term journey.

 

[72HCODE]

another thing to think about as something i didn't know about getting into 71-73 mustangs.

Competition suspension cars had different sheet metal in the back for the rear shocks. I didn't know there was a standard and competition suspension.

putting in competition suspension requires a cross member and different shackle plates for the leafs, also there are blind nuts required for the factory rear sway bar.

I didn't know that and just assumed all mustangs were the same, putting in a competition suspension when you do not have one is a BIG expensive deal with some rare parts.

knowing what i know now i would of not went for my car additionally based on that.

Fold down rear seats. i didn't even really know about this but assumed all mustangs were the same. once again i did not know the fold downs required different interior sheet metal and it was not just a bolt on part to make the change.

point is really look the car over gets its history and look for options your really want because if the car was not born with it, it will be VERY expensive or impossible to add during the restoration.

this is why take the entire car as a whole to make a decision.

it is like this you find a car with perfect metal that just needs a repaint, however it turns out it is a Inline 6 with a 8.8 rear end FMX trans, drum brakes, no A/C, just some options standard interior.

and you wanted a 351V4,9" rear, C6 or 3-4speed, with A/C, fold downs and competition suspension, disc brakes... then you better run away from that perfect metal car.