Hard to start

[TheJ]

Yesterday I drove my brothers dump truck with the 351w and I noticed that if you turn the truck off and then go to start it in a few minutes, the starter turns the motor over really slowly almost to a point of not starting. Also, I noticed the same thing on my mustang when I drove it on Thanksgiving. They both have new starters and long tube headers. Could the headers be heat soaking the starter causing it so spin slowly?

Thanks for looking.

 

[caspianwendell]

Is the engine kicking back [timing]?

 

[TheJ]

No because it starts fine when it's cold or you give it time to cool off, that's why I thought it was heat related. I may not have explained it correctly, it phycally cranks over slower almost like the battery has a low charge. But on a cold start it cranks just fine and fires right up. I hope that makes sense.

 

[marks73]

Timing is too far advanced. That is the symtom. Loosen the hold down after it's been driven and is hot. Bump it in the retarding direction slightly. Try to start. Continue doing until you can just bump the key to start. Lock it down. Works every time.

 

[hyena429]

No because it starts fine when it's cold or you give it time to cool off, that's why I thought it was heat related. I may not have explained it correctly, it phycally cranks over slower almost like the battery has a low charge. But on a cold start it cranks just fine and fires right up. I hope that makes sense.

Yup..had that happen with my mustang too..Ended up being starter shorting out inside...Sometimes they will short out inside....So they heat up and dont like to start again till they cool....My mustang would let me down at the gas stations and everything...If i went to a freinds house..I would plan on staying for atleast 15 min...Then it would start like a champ!!...Start and run your car for a while...then once you kill it...Feel the bolt head on the wire going from the silenoid to the starter...I bet it hot as hell...once i even was upset on my car not starting at a gas station that i spitt on that bolt too cool it off..lol..and it work!! ..I replaced the starter...starter wire too going up<~~cause its getting hot and loosing it too...and silenoid...and didnt have no more issues with starting...Timing and everything was fine."not saying thats for sure your trouble" But something to look at.

 

[Silverback]

Timing is too far advanced. That is the symtom. Loosen the hold down after it's been driven and is hot. Bump it in the retarding direction slightly. Try to start. Continue doing until you can just bump the key to start. Lock it down. Works every time.

retarding the timing will lessen the load on the starter, but just because it starts better there doesn't mean it's the correct setting... the correct setting is where the car runs best at, which might be where there is too much pressure to start well with the starter.

If that's the case, make sure the battery, starter and it's wiring is good first (they can get weaker as they get older), you might want to replace it with a high torque starter (not sure if one is available for a 351C, you should be able to find one for a W), if that's all fine then you might want to consider either adding an ignition amplifier box that has a start retard feature (many of the newer ones have one automatically built in), or wire a switch inline with the ignition circuit that allows you to crank the engine without the ignition firing, then you can start the engine cranking and engage the ignition once its turning well. Really, this shouldn't be necessary on a street car, but some of these were built when high compression engines were still common and were built for higher octane gas than is easily available now, and heck, they're 40 years old, who knows what someone built and dropped in in the last 40 years.

 

[TheJ]

Timing is too far advanced. That is the symtom. Loosen the hold down after it's been driven and is hot. Bump it in the retarding direction slightly. Try to start. Continue doing until you can just bump the key to start. Lock it down. Works every time.

retarding the timing will lessen the load on the starter, but just because it starts better there doesn't mean it's the correct setting... the correct setting is where the car runs best at, which might be where there is too much pressure to start well with the starter.

If that's the case, make sure the battery, starter and it's wiring is good first (they can get weaker as they get older), you might want to replace it with a high torque starter (not sure if one is available for a 351C, you should be able to find one for a W), if that's all fine then you might want to consider either adding an ignition amplifier box that has a start retard feature (many of the newer ones have one automatically built in), or wire a switch inline with the ignition circuit that allows you to crank the engine without the ignition firing, then you can start the engine cranking and engage the ignition once its turning well. Really, this shouldn't be necessary on a street car, but some of these were built when high compression engines were still common and were built for higher octane gas than is easily available now, and heck, they're 40 years old, who knows what someone built and dropped in in the last 40 years.

The dump truck has a freshly rebuilt motor (by me) has the stock smog 84 heads and a 79 LTD block. It has a Duraspark ignition system, I'm not sure if it has the start retard feature. As for the mustang it has single points and stock 73 351c.


Would a heatshield or heatwrap help?

Something like this:

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/dei-010402

 

[marks73]

Whatta ya got to lose.

 

[MotoArts]

I don't recall many Ford starters having heat soak problems. It's more of a Chivvy thing I think.

Verify the integrity of your grounds... cable itself, battery to cable, cable to block, block to frame.

Then do the same for the hot wire, solenoid, etc.

No paint or rust...

I use a small steel butterfly brush and a wee bit of dielectric grease on mine.

My 5.0 had slow cranking for years, got worse with heat. Finally replaced the starter, with no improvement. Ground cable got so hot it darned near caught fire. Turned out being poor ground contact @ batt to block end. Looked spotless, but brushed and greased it... fixed.

 

[TheJ]

I don't recall many Ford starters having heat soak problems. It's more of a Chivvy thing I think.

Verify the integrity of your grounds... cable itself, battery to cable, cable to block, block to frame.

Then do the same for the hot wire, solenoid, etc.

No paint or rust...

I use a small steel butterfly brush and a wee bit of dielectric grease on mine.

My 5.0 had slow cranking for years, got worse with heat. Finally replaced the starter, with no improvement. Ground cable got so hot it darned near caught fire. Turned out being poor ground contact @ batt to block end. Looked spotless, but brushed and greased it... fixed.

All of the grounds are new, but I'll check them anyway just to be sure.

Thanks guys for the responses.

 

[Tnfastbk]

TOO much timing

 

[TheJ]

I will retard the timing and see if that helps, I timed it using the vacuum method because the cam I got for the motor didn't say what timing to set it at. As for the duraspark timing retard feature, how do I determine if my set up has it?

 

[Jeff73Mach1]

Ask Wolverine

Seriously, the gear reduction starters are smaller, lighter, spin your engine faster and don't have the same heat soak issues as the originals.

I found that a rebuild one from NAPA for a 90's model full size Bronco with a 5 speed is a perfect match from my cleveland with a stock 4 speed bell housing. If you run an automatic, you may wish to substitute a 351 F150/Bronco Auto transmission gear reduction starter.

 

[caspianwendell]

If it turns slow then the starter is dragging but if it turns, pause, turn, pause when warmed up its the timing too advanced

 

[TheJ]

If it turns slow then the starter is dragging but if it turns, pause, turn, pause when warmed up its the timing too advanced

Yeah that's exactly what it's doing. I'll retard the timing a little. Kind of a dumb newb question but how does having the timing too advanced make it hard to start only when it's warmed up?

 

[TheJ]

Thanks guys I retarded the timing on the dump truck and it starts right up now and has a little more low end pep to it. Hopefully the same thing will work on the mustang, I'll try it tomorrow.

 

[caspianwendell]

metal expands, fuel ignites different when warm, and various other factors that i'm not smart enough to explain, or more like spell

 

[marks73]

Thanks guys I retarded the timing on the dump truck and it starts right up now and has a little more low end pep to it. Hopefully the same thing will work on the mustang, I'll try it tomorrow.

O.K. Now that the motor will start properly we can begin tuning for optimum performance. You'll need a timing light, vacuum gauge and a small screwdriver. As a matter of fact our tech advisor posted a fantasic thread that will take you step by step from setting the mechanical advance to optimum vacuum and carberator adjusting. Ill see if I can find it.

 

[matrixx]

hmm interesting. i had this problem when i had my 65 coupe and the original 200ci 6cyl. swaped for the 289 k code. long story short the battery cables were too small for the bigger starter and engine. I can only pony up info from previous experience but it sounds like the guys here have you on the right track to fix your problem. I do know that if metal contracts when its hot and it takes more drain to shove the pistons around when the cylinders are hot.