paint problem

[Mister 4x4]

Wow - I guess being slightly Red/Green color blind has it's perks, after all. rofl

Any shop that deals in automotive paints worth their own salt will be able to look up the code, come up with the right formula, and get it pretty much right on... pretty much. If you're painting the whole car - no problemo. Of course there's going to be variances to the surrounding painted areas because of age and weathering, which is why Austin is suggesting to get the 'eyeball' treatment to get the best match.

Paint codes will only get you so far, since they work in absolutes (kinda like some purists when it comes to available factory options - oops... sorry ). But to get a perfect match, you'll need to get a little more involved than just mixing up an old code with newer products and hoping for the best.

It's all good, though - lots of experience and knowledge being shared... and to quote Marth Stewart: "that's a good thing."

 

[Go Time]

I'm learning a lot with all of the responses to my question. Thank you. Fortunately, I have a hood that has been in storage for many years (out of the sun). I'm thinking I can get a good read from that to come up with what I want.

One other question. Does it make a difference what color the primer is? Will using a gray primer lighten up the color? From what I can see, Ford used the rust colored primer under the paint.

If I had a hood that was the color I wanted I would take it to the paint store or have the paint rep come to the shop. They can take a digital scope shot of it. Im not sure what it was called but its a Gun that takes a shot of a clean spot of paint and will develop a paint formula. Dupont has a version and Im sure there are other versions for other manufacturers. When I was in the trades I had mixing stations available to me so I could play with the mix a bit if it didn't quite match. You could do a spray out on a paddle that has the proper value shade(certain color of primer) underneath to get a good idea of the correct color. Thats what I would do If I had a hood and I wanted that exact color. My two cents for what its worth. i hope it helps and there have been some good posting on this thread I have enjoyed it very much.

Dennis

 

[Austin Vert]

I am going to respectfully disagree with you. The paint as mixed from the factory is definitely "batched" before any car is painted. This ensures that many, many vehicles are all painted from the same huge homogenized batch, making them all exactly the same.

The production of the paint mixing for factory paint is extremely accurate so that the paint can be effectively matched by a bodyshop repairing a typical fender-bender. If it couldn't be matched that way, what would be the point of having mixing codes in the first place?

There is of course the issue of trying to panel-match to faded, aged paint and that is where a painter with a good color-matching skill comes in.

But...if you are doing a complete repaint of the entire car, why in the world would you want to go to the trouble to try to color-match your paint to another original, faded vehicle?

Just mix your new paint according to the code and you will nail it.

It is true that getting your paint from different sources can lead to cans of paint tha tare all tbe "same color", yet will vary just enough to notice by eye. That is why any reasonably experienced painter will ALWAYS batch all the paint together before painting anything.

Hi Kit,

Thank you for your response. I'll try and explain it as best i can based on my own experience and what i've known over the last 37 years.

Let's say Ford does a production run on a particular color, for a particular car model. That color run may last one year, or two. That doesn't matter. Whilst using that color, Ford will end up ordering and use thousands of gallons from the paint company, and would be surplied in batch quantities as needed. So yes, logically you would think that the paint company when mixing and surplying all that paint, would have the color recipie down to a fine art for accuracy and color consistancy.

The reality is however, that you will get subtle variations from batch to batch. Over my career, i have continually experienced this many times and to this day, am still getting this problem. There can be differant reasons for this. Pigmentation settleing and agitation issues can be one for example. For instance, i am using Glasurit Paints at the moment, and there is a solid color called Candy White. When us spraypainters go to make up that color on the computer, in the sprayshop, based on a factory color code, you can choose from around eight differanrt shades or color variations of that color, based on the factory code. Bare in mind, this is a new car and new color. As well,nine times out of ten, the painter will have to spray out the made up color on a test card, and check to see what it's like to the rest of the car. He will then have to add extra tinters to play around with and change that color and accurately match the color to what's on the car anyway. We have around forty or so differant tinters to change colors to match with.That's where the great skill comes into play.It's knowing what tinters to use and how much tinter to use to change any color. In my trade we were taught to make up a color from scratch with no code or formula as a guide to go by.

So your factory colors will most definately vary. When you look at it that way, there may have been a paint starter formula or recipie for Gold Glow for example, but there would be many slight variations of that color running around out there in reality. (Will the real Gold Glow please stand up!) That also holds true for any of the Ford Mustang colors on offer for '71-'73 as well.

When it comes to the refinish industry, finding old paint Codes is not an issue. Paint formulas are harder to find, and are mostly not released to the public as public information.(A paint formula is a list of differant tinters that when mixed and combined together, go to make up any particular color). Formulas are left to the paint companies to keep upgrading over the years. Sometimes they do this and sometimes they don't upgrade. Paint companies and paint chemists are forever changing the chemistry of paint for the refinish trade over the years, and as new technology comes on line, some old formulas get left behind and don't get added to the new types of paints. New tech tinters are differant from the old paints can be an issue for color variations as well.Going from old mono single stage enamels used in the Seventies to modern clear over basecoat 2pak enamels can change colors and give variations as well.

Having said that, i've ordered an used old classic car colors based on so called 'original' formulas and have found them sometimes not really accurate when sprayed out on a test card and then checked against the original color which is in good condition.

Lastly, as i have said, your key objective for best original factory match is to find a donor car with the original factory paint work still on the car, and in as best condition that it can be. I know that is a hard ask, but sometimes it can be done. So in reality, when you look at the whole big picture, there is no such thing as the dead accurate holy grail of any color, as an ultimate yardstick. No matter which way you go, there will always be variations of any color for any car. So when a customer buys auto paint across the counter and he wants to buy say Gold Glow for example, he will be sold Gold Glow paint, spray the car with that color and be satisfied with that color. Most people either don't care or are not aware of the accuracy of what they have ended up with.As other forum members have said in the past; It sure looks like Gold Glow to me!

But it is understood that if you were doing a touch up or partial repair somewhere on your car, you would have to match or throw your purchased color to match and blend in with what's on your car already. No question there.

Okeedokee? Hope that helps,

Greg

Hi Greg,

Sweet Lord, you should try and get Don Stang to give you an award for the best attempt to try and explain a tech problem!

Hang in there little buddy,

Austin Vert

I'm learning a lot with all of the responses to my question. Thank you. Fortunately, I have a hood that has been in storage for many years (out of the sun). I'm thinking I can get a good read from that to come up with what I want.

One other question. Does it make a difference what color the primer is? Will using a gray primer lighten up the color? From what I can see, Ford used the rust colored primer under the paint.

Hi jtl,

Does it make a difference what color the primer is? Will using a grey primer lighten up the color?

The short answer to both questions is no and yes combined. To answer your questions,THE WHOLE THING DEPENDS ON PROPER PAINT COVERAGE.

Opacity is the tech word we use in the trade for the ability of any paint's covering or hiding power over any colored substrate. Put in simple terms, the less opacity a paint has, the more coats the painter will have to apply to cover and hide whatever color substrate is underneath. The better the opacity or hiding power a paint has, the fewer coats a painter will have to apply.

THE GENERAL RULE OF THUMB IS AS FOLLOWS. When spraying 2k solid enamels, what color the primer or substrate is underneath, is not a big issue. Usually, these solid color enamels have fairly good covering and hiding power and don't pose any real problems in that regard.

However, with basecoat metallics and basecoat solid colors in solvent based and water based as well, it is best advised to better control your primer or substrate color to mimic your basecoat color fairly closely.In doing this, you will reduce the number of basecoat coats needed to obtain full coverage of the color you're spraying. Put another way, when a painter is spraying out his basecoat color, he will have to apply a certain number of coats to achieve proper coverage.(That means the substrate color can in no way be seen grinning through at all) The number of coats needed for full coverage will vary from color to color, paint brand to paint brand etc, etc.

With my basecoat application,i like to achieve full coverage, and then apply about another 2 or 3 coats over that to guarantee really good coverage without getting any see through issues, when i'm spraying with basecoat/ clearcoat systems. However,most times i will just use a standard grey colored primer or putty straight from the can, and sprayout my basecoat color until i achieve full coverage. I usually find i get fairly good coverage with my basecoat colors. I'm shooting PPG and Glasurit mainly at the moment.

Lastly, car manufacturers are using what they call spectral grey basecoat colors and or spectral grey primers as substrates before computer controlled robot spraying the basecoat colors. There are about roughly eight shades of spectral greys to work with from dark to lighter shades. A particular grey is chosen to best match or compliment the chosen basecoat color being sprayed on any vehicle, so as to reduce or minimise the amount of basecoat color the robot will need to spray to achieve coverage and the desired finished result. This practice works, and saves the car companies squillions of dollers on paint material useage.Tradgically, through company greed (more profit in saving with paint useage), the car companies have cut back on the amount of basecoat metallic used when robot spraying their cars, and very sadly, full coverage is not achieved, and thus,you can see through the metallic finish revealing uneven, blotchy, banding, and tiger striping visual application issues. They have also cut back on the paint used or film build of the clears on the new cars as well. But that's another story.

In the refinish trade, we use the spectral greys as well to help us achieve better color matches and use less basecoat paint for coverage. We also have the use of tintable primers to swing the primer colors around closer to the basecoat color that we've chosen. That method is another way of approaching the issue.

Hope that helps,

Greg

 

[Kit Sullivan]

Greg,

Very good response. Great effort. I just have not had your experjence over the years, although I probably have psinted 25-30 cars myself in the last 30 years or so. I never had an issue where the psint was wrong to the degred that it was obvious to the naked eye.

You state that Ford recieved batches premixed from thier supplier, but I know this is or was not so in every case. Ford had employees who mixed bstches of paint on the line according to how many cars of a particular color were schexuled for that run.

You say that there could be msny examples of factory painted cars with variations in color. If so, then how would you decide which exact shade was the "correct" one?

If you are repainting the entire car, what difference does it make if it does not totally mstch another original vehicle, especially since that vehicle may...as you say...not be "correct" anyway?

My 71 has had many fender-benders over the years: 8 partial and 3 complete paint jobs, all done by me. I did all the paint work each time and I simply went to my local auto paint store ( different stores over the years) and ordered quarts or gallons of the paint...depending on how much I needed. Never once did I get mismatched panels or obviously different shades of paint. Maybe I've just been lucky.

 

[Austin Vert]

Greg,

Very good response. Great effort. I just have not had your experjence over the years, although I probably have psinted 25-30 cars myself in the last 30 years or so. I never had an issue where the psint was wrong to the degred that it was obvious to the naked eye.

You state that Ford recieved batches premixed from thier supplier, but I know this is or was not so in every case. Ford had employees who mixed bstches of paint on the line according to how many cars of a particular color were schexuled for that run.

You say that there could be many examples of factory painted cars with variations in color. If so, then how would you decide which exact shade was the "correct" one?

If you are repainting the entire car, what difference does it make if it does not totally mstch another original vehicleIf you are repainting the entire car, what difference does it make if it does not totally mstch another original vehicle, especially since that vehicle may...as you say...not be "correct" anyway?

My 71 has had many fender-benders over the years: 8 partial and 3 complete paint jobs, all done by me. I did all the paint work each time and I simply went to my local auto paint store ( different stores over the years) and ordered quarts or gallons of the paint...depending on how much I needed. Never once did I get mismatched panels or obviously different shades of paint. Maybe I've just been lucky.

Thanks Kit,

Regards Ford making paint up - i don't know. Maybe someone could chime in here and verify that.

Regards - (Quote) - You say that there could be msny examples of factory painted cars with variations in color. If so, then how would you decide which exact shade was the "correct" one?

If you are repainting the entire car, what difference does it make if it does not totally mstch another original vehicle............

You go for and eye match to what original factory paint is on your car already.

Put simply, if the painter wants to do a touch up or part respray, he will usually make his color up with a code to do the job. He then needs to make sure that made up color will match whatever is currently on the vehicle. Nine times out of ten, he will have to tint or throw his made up color to match where he's blending to around the car.As i said before, Glasurit for example, will provide a single paint code for any factory color, but will list a few formula variations under that single code, because they know and have proven that there are variations of that color running around out there. Choosing which variation formula to make up obviously becomes a trial and error affair. Again, Glasurit provde a full range of color swatches of all these variations, so you could try any of the swatches against your car's existing paintwork, to see what's the best usable formula to end up making.

However, when painting the entire car, you would make up the color with the code's standard formula, and have no great need to change that color. Most people trust the paint companies that the relating code and formula is accurate, and in that sense, they are satisfied with what they end up with as the so called 'original authentic color so to speak'.

Regards '71 fender benders - I think you have been lucky with no color variation issues over the years indeed.Was all that paint from the same paint company brand as such?

BTW - Spectro's can deliver quite accurate results with color matching, and save time, but are not always dead accurate, and so the color should be final checked by spraying out on a proper test card in proper fashion, and compare it with what your matching to. In other words, eye match it and throw it if necessary after the spectro.

Hope that helps,

Greg.

 

[smokem]

Greg,

Very good response. Great effort. I just have not had your experjence over the years, although I probably have psinted 25-30 cars myself in the last 30 years or so. I never had an issue where the psint was wrong to the degred that it was obvious to the naked eye.

You state that Ford recieved batches premixed from thier supplier, but I know this is or was not so in every case. Ford had employees who mixed bstches of paint on the line according to how many cars of a particular color were schexuled for that run.

You say that there could be msny examples of factory painted cars with variations in color. If so, then how would you decide which exact shade was the "correct" one?

If you are repainting the entire car, what difference does it make if it does not totally mstch another original vehicle, especially since that vehicle may...as you say...not be "correct" anyway?

My 71 has had many fender-benders over the years: 8 partial and 3 complete paint jobs, all done by me. I did all the paint work each time and I simply went to my local auto paint store ( different stores over the years) and ordered quarts or gallons of the paint...depending on how much I needed. Never once did I get mismatched panels or obviously different shades of paint. Maybe I've just been lucky.

 

[PAPPY HAROLD]

Many good responses here, but some I can't agree totaly with. In the day of the 70's we would sometimes order what we called factory pack paint, meaning the paint was mixed by the paint manf. Some stores would make slight miss match paint, so when trying to color match a factory pack was better. Overall jobs were no big deal.

Also noone has mentioned the painter. I once won a bet that i could get 3 different shades out of the same can of paint. the wetter you spray the darker the color. this is true more for mettalics than solids but still feasible. GM used to teach spot repair in there schools and we would spray a small area so dry you could instantly rub it, we kept adding dry coats for coverage and then use a blending thinner to darken it, When you got the match you quit.

This is my 48th year of paint and body work, so I am familiar with the old paint.

 

[Austin Vert]

Many good responses here, but some I can't agree totaly with. In the day of the 70's we would sometimes order what we called factory pack paint, meaning the paint was mixed by the paint manf. Some stores would make slight miss match paint, so when trying to color match a factory pack was better. Overall jobs were no big deal.

Also no one has mentioned the painter. I once won a bet that i could get 3 different shades out of the same can of paint. the wetter you spray the darker the color. this is true more for mettalics than solids but still feasible. GM used to teach spot repair in there schools and we would spray a small area so dry you could instantly rub it, we kept adding dry coats for coverage and then use a blending thinner to darken it, When you got the match you quit.

This is my 48th year of paint and body work, so I am familiar with the old paint.

Hi Pappy,

I agree with you about color matching techniques regards wet/dry applications of metallics.I did not get around to mentioning all the aspects of color matching as there many things which can slightly change the color's finished look.

Sounds like you've had a big and long career with the painting game.

You would be a treasure load of information with what you've learn't and know over the years i guess.

Greg.

 

[MotoArts]

If I had a hood that was the color I wanted I would take it to the paint store or have the paint rep come to the shop. They can take a digital scope shot of it. Im not sure what it was called but its a Gun that takes a shot of a clean spot of paint and will develop a paint formula. Dupont has a version and Im sure there are other versions for other manufacturers. When I was in the trades I had mixing stations available to me so I could play with the mix a bit if it didn't quite match. You could do a spray out on a paddle that has the proper value shade(certain color of primer) underneath to get a good idea of the correct color. Thats what I would do If I had a hood and I wanted that exact color. My two cents for what its worth. i hope it helps and there have been some good posting on this thread I have enjoyed it very much.

Dennis

This is the most correct answer to the green and potential variations IMO.

Paint shop can compare scanned formula to the code formula. Customers will often bring in painted parts (gas cap doors on modern cars come to mind) to the paint shop to be scanned if a "rep" can't (or won't) make the trip to your shop/house.

This will be your best bet in getting it right on the first attempt.