Rust Tech

71Mach

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Let's talk about RUST! :mad:

I thought I'd start separate thread about everybody's least favorite thing...RUST. A place where everyone can share success stories, ideas, as well as share info on stuff that doesn't work so much.

Iv'e been working on Mustangs for 35 years now, and have come to this conclusion: In a perfect world, taking it down to bare clean metal, followed by quality epoxy primer is the best solution. Unfortunately, this isn't always possible.

There are several products on the market today that claim to stop the process. I've noticed on this Forum that there are a lot of Rust Bullet fans out there. I've used Eastwood products with good results in the past, but I also want to use the best products I can find. Let's pool our knowledge and experiences here!

I did a little investigating online, and found this:

http://www.drjing.com/Mini/BLOG/SideBySide.htm

Looks like it was a pretty good test, with our large member base, let's share our info, and kick butt on rust!

Charlie.

 

Jim and Jutta

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Charlie, this should be an interesting and informative thread! As an owner of 41 year old Mustang with 95% of it's orginal metal I've ressigned myself to live with minor rust and tackle it as it becomes evident. Right now the only visable areas of rust are areas inside my trunk (had a trunk seal leaking) and the passenger side cowl, no rust through but I'm interested in a coating that can be applied to stop it from getting worse.

 

OMS

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Charlie,

If you use and like the eastwood stick with it.

Once one of these cars are done, usually it is a cruse in car and

it might see rain once in awhile.

Even if it is a daily driver, I doubt it would be a winter daily driver.

Don

 

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I too will be watching this thread very closely. After all these years I"m always looking to learn. I have my opinion but will wait awhile. Go to it guys.... But I will say this IAGREE with liking the best, theres plenty of companys saying they have the best, but I still like the ones that have been here forever and designed most of the products on the market.

 

Qcode351mach

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Let's talk about RUST! :mad:

I thought I'd start separate thread about everybody's least favorite thing...RUST. A place where everyone can share success stories, ideas, as well as share info on stuff that doesn't work so much.

Iv'e been working on Mustangs for 35 years now, and have come to this conclusion: In a perfect world, taking it down to bare clean metal, followed by quality epoxy primer is the best solution. Unfortunately, this isn't always possible.

There are several products on the market today that claim to stop the process. I've noticed on this Forum that there are a lot of Rust Bullet fans out there. I've used Eastwood products with good results in the past, but I also want to use the best products I can find. Let's pool our knowledge and experiences here!

I did a little investigating online, and found this:

http://www.drjing.com/Mini/BLOG/SideBySide.htm

Looks like it was a pretty good test, with our large member base, let's share our info, and kick butt on rust!

Charlie.
Great idea for a thread ! I took a look at the link..He screwed up on the rust bullet test panel by using a non approved product for use with rust bullet..He may have also done the same with the other products..Here's a cut paste on the metal ready he used.

cut & paste from por -15 site

"If Metal Ready is not rinsed off you will get a large accumulation of zinc phosphate on the surface which will

affect proper adhesion with POR-15. After you rinse/wipe with wet rag, you can dry the surface with warm air(hair

dryer) or towels to cut down on the surface rust. However, because POR-15 is a non-porous coating and can be applied

directly over rust, you CAN apply it directly over surface rust.

Special note: Metal Ready is designed to leave behind a zinc phosphate coating which creates the best surface to coat with POR-15."

When using these types of coatings you need to stick with whatever is the recommend products not mix & match..I'm not buying his test..not controlled enough & the simple fact of mixing & mis-matching products tells me his test doesn't cut the mustard. Mixing & mis-matching products is ONE of leading causes for paint--coating related failures.

Here's a much better test by a certified laboratory in a controlled environment. http://www.rustbullet.com/testing.asp I'm still waiting for eastwood..por-15 etc to do certified lab testing of their products..If their products were so good & did what they said it's a no brainier having a certified lab test the product...It just lends a air of creditability..I posted up a thread last week about this process..One of the best I think to stop rust..http://www.7173mustangs.com/thread-this-is-the-way-to-fix-rust-once-for-all Out side of that I will agree with you..Media blast..Then epoxy or rust bullet. Thankfully after this project I will never do a rusted out car again..

 

Qcode351mach

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I ran across this forum this morning, where it discussed the same subject alittle and it goes along with most I can read and that is OPINIONS VARY. There is one homebrew for applying to the inside of panels that sounded interesting. Needs more research tho.

http://forum.ih8mud.com/40-55-series-tech/16669-stopping-rust.html
It's pretty interesting to read all the opinions & methods out there. I think the key is to make the proper assessment as to weather a rusted part can be repaired or needs to be replaced..Then comes proper preparation..followed by strictly adhering to the manufacturers directions for what ever product your using. As far as cavity wax I wouldn't start home brewing there are plenty of to the trade products out there. Bmw has been applying these wax's for years on new cars ..When I worked for them part of the required repair procedure was to reapply these wax's... This is what we used http://www.winzerusa.com/?__event=browse_catalog&pid=4d89068edcb2f7c33ea23501

This is my rust removal / repair procedure

1--can the part panel be repaired or does it need to be replaced ?

2--repair or replace as required

3--Media blast

4--clean with spi wax & grease remover

5--Apply rust bullet or epoxy primer depending on the panel or location

6--Apply cavity wax to inner cavities.

 

M Beauchamp

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Here is what i am going to use.

Amerlock 400 from Ameron, PPG

I haven't found and certified testing results for POR 15?

Q has the link to Rust bullet which have loads of certified test results

The Amerlock testing is listed in the attached PDF

400_PDS_AI.pdf

ASTM B117 Salt water spray RB=500hrs 400= 3000hrs

ASTM D2794 Impact resistance RB=28in lb 400=24 in lb

ASTM D4541 Adhesion RB=? 400=900psi

NACE TM-01-69) Fresh water immersion RB=? 400=1 year

I have never used POR 15 or Rust Bullet, so i cant really comment on them.

I have used Amerlock 400 for 20yrs in the petrochemical industry.

400 is the best industrial coating product for areas that you cannot blast.

You still have to mechanically clean the are as best as you can.

I do know a lot of guys that have used it for their chassis and never heard of any issues.

I am not going to use this on my panels because you can't sand it very easily, just the engine bay and the chassis.

Its a simi gloss but because its epoxy it will turn to a mat finish

Lastly 400 is about $75-$80/ gal

 

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71Mach

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OK!

We're off to a great start.

I like Q's triage approach at assessing the areas, and share his desire to "never do a rusted out car again"!

If you haven't checked out M's PDF about Amerlock, it's worth a look. It seems to be a 2 part epoxy, which sounds good. Also, he has 20 years working with it, a good selling point.

http://www.7173mustangs.com/attachment.php?aid=6605

Pappy's link to a 4x4 forum discussion led me to this too:

http://www.ospho.com/directions.htm

The Ospho is available at hardware stores. It's a rust conversion process, that looks interesting. The product instructions seem to have some concerns with epoxy topcoats though.

How many other products don't we know about yet????

Chime in!

Charlie.

 

Qcode351mach

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Here is what i am going to use.

Amerlock 400 from Ameron, PPG

I haven't found and certified testing results for POR 15?

Q has the link to Rust bullet which have loads of certified test results

The Amerlock testing is listed in the attached PDF

ASTM B117 Salt water spray RB=500hrs 400= 3000hrs

ASTM D2794 Impact resistance RB=28in lb 400=24 in lb

ASTM D4541 Adhesion RB=? 400=900psi

NACE TM-01-69) Fresh water immersion RB=? 400=1 year

I have never used POR 15 or Rust Bullet, so i cant really comment on them.

I have used Amerlock 400 for 20yrs in the petrochemical industry.

400 is the best industrial coating product for areas that you cannot blast.

You still have to mechanically clean the are as best as you can.

I do know a lot of guys that have used it for their chassis and never heard of any issues.

I am not going to use this on my panels because you can't sand it very easily, just the engine bay and the chassis.

Its a simi gloss but because its epoxy it will turn to a mat finish

Lastly 400 is about $75-$80/ gal
Kudos to you M::goodjob::

YOU are the ONLY one who has provided a product with lab testing ! You can rest assured that ppg did it's homework & tested the product to back up it's claims !!! Not only that, ppg sells to the trade not the amateur market . I remember you had posted up this product some time ago & I did look at the specs testing..I would feel just as comfortable using this product as well as R/B. The only difference being that the A-400 needs to be activated so it's a 2 component product vs the R/B which is not. With the amount of time, hard work, and money we put into repairing rust on these cars..Not to mention that in the course of doing structural repair removing panels..most of the areas you open up will never be accessible again once the repair/ replacement is done...So it's a one shot chance to get it right. It's just plain foolish to use a rust killer/ preventive product that can't back up it's claims with lab testing. 2 other products that I have used in the course of many restorations are sikkins ep primerhttp://www.sikkenscr.com/sikkenscr/uk/Products/Pages/sikkensprimersurfacerepii.aspx & sikkins wash primer extra mildhttp://www.sikkenscr.com/sikkenscr/uk/Products/Pages/sikkensprimersurfacerepii.aspx..again products made for the trade by a top notch company Akzo Nobel http://www.akzonobel.com/us/aboutus/products/ I was a sikkins shop for many years. Don't get me wrong Eastwood makes many good products that I have personally used myself & have recommend over the years..But without some sort of lab testing on their rust killer/ preventive products I have no data to make a comparison plus their products are geared to the home restorer not the trade..There are very few pro's using their rust products in their shops vs the known company's who sell to the trade like PPG..Sikkins...and Rust Bullet. All company's & products who sell to the trade & are geared to the professional not the amateur market.

 
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M Beauchamp

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I think that every one can agree that you may use the best products, but if you don't do a good surface prep, it not going to last.

Obviously there is a lot of spots on a car you can't easily access.

What do you guys do inside frames rails that you don't have exposed for instance?

I would also like to hear different approaches to prep!

I not a big fan of blasting everything, I have been chemical striping and sanding areas where there is no rust issues and only blasting areas where I have rust issues that I have to fix.

Heard lot of problems with soda blasting, chemical dipping and even blast media suck in seam which hold moister.

 

PAPPY HAROLD

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Ok I guess its time for my 2cents worth. There has been many good points and good porducts referred too. Some things I am going to say have been previously mentioned so I"m agreeing not stepping on.

As said first acess the situation. Consider the time involved to repair along with your skill level and the cost against the cost of replacement. Then nomatter what you decide the old rust has to go,(no brainer) Then any work you do has to be completly welded solid, no spot or stitch welds on panels, I"m talking sheet metal exterior not inner panels. Then clean and seal the best you can. for instance if you replace a 1/4 panel ,weather you lap weld or but weld seal the inside not just the outside. If its a lap weld I use seam sealer on the interior lap. Seal around the wheel well joint. You get the picture.

Know which ever product you decide to use, Do it properly don"t just throw it at it, get the cracks best you can. As to wether you use weld thru primer or prime first then weld after grinding the primer off the weld area, that spot is now exposed and bare where the weld is. Thats why I proclaim seal well after assy. the best you can. Then clean and etch it, wether you use a wash or self etch primer(which I personaly am not fond of because of cost and its a bear to work) and now use your primer of choice and proceed to glory.

And finally how to stop rust!!! IMHO you CAN"T it is a process of nature and no product can stop it forever, you can replace or repair any part you want but what about the ones you don"t? You can fix it and you can slow it down But you cannot stop it forever. Just do the best you can and hope it lasts longer than it would have if you did nothing. I do have to humbly disagre with one thing tho. Anyone can walk into any PPG, DUPONT, Martin Senor, RM, or any other store and purchase the same products as the industry and pro shops. And they pretty much all apply the same. I"M thru singing now.. (minnie pearl)

 
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mus72

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Owaterol gets a good name you can add it to paint or use it neat seen it used neat at Port en Bessin at the recovered wrecks museum (D Day Beaches) the displays were preserved with it very impressive.







I have also tried an experiment over this last couple of months on a piece of rusty tubing by giving part of it a quick sand then simply brushed on milkstone remover so far the rust still seems to be neutralised if this keeps working it will be the cheapest option I have seen.

Lets be frank about it if any product was full proof we'd all know by now, most of these products are the same stuff or at least common ingredients.

 

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O.K. 3 years ago I built this for my wife for valentines day. Wishing Well 005.jpg

A few days ago she pointed out how rusty the pot had become and would I redo it. Hmmmm, POR15 test for the rust thread "Be glad to" This pot has water pouring over it 24/7 and by no means a clinical study but what a great test so here goes! For Q :p Wire wheeled, blasted, Metal Ready then POR-15. Tomorrow will 600 grit sand, prime, and paint and then put the water back to it on Monday. I'm thinking a good test.

DSCN1398.JPG DSCN1397.JPG DSCN1400.JPG DSCN1401.JPG

 

71Mach

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Some great Ideas, and info being posted here, lets hear some more! While there are only a handful of posters, I know there are a lot of folks learning from your experiences, and knowledge.

How about posting some cleaning techniques, and tools for getting after that nasty stuff!

M is absolutely right, prep is the key. You have to get the metal as pristine as possible, for best results. Sometimes that is easy, sometimes hard, sometimes impossible. That is what is exciting about sharing our experiences with products that are effective for different levels of oxidation.

Sadly, Pappy is also correct in that, the best you can do is still only postponing the inevitable. Steel is an unstable product that by nature wants to return to it's original state. Anyone who "knows" they can make something last forever by brushing, rolling, or spraying something on rust is only fooling themselves.

Also, I'd like to hear from anyone planning to scratch their car to the bare metal, and park it in salt water after it's been restored.

Anyone???

OK, how about those planning to buy snow tires, and put that front spoiler to use as a snow plow?

Well??

I didn't think so.....

Lab tests are interesting, but exposing a product to severe damage, in an environment that it will never be exposed to, is a useless test. From the lab tests I've seen so far, all had damage, none have really survived. In all fairness though, they were never designed to.

That's OK, because they will NEVER SEE PUNISHMENT LIKE THAT ON OUR CARS. The only place these rust inhibiting products are applied are internal. If we have learned anything from the restoration process, we know that we have to keep these areas clean. Plus, after all of our hard work, the worst our cars will see is an accidental rain shower, or occasionally be parked outside overnight.

The damage we are repairing on our cars is the product of years of neglect. I believe there are products out there that with proper application, followed by protection from the elements, will result in a great looking car for as long as you own it.

Mark, keep us posted on the pot, I love real world testing!

CP

 

OLE PONY

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Charlie,

If you use and like the eastwood stick with it.

Once one of these cars are done, usually it is a cruse in car and

it might see rain once in awhile.

Even if it is a daily driver, I doubt it would be a winter daily driver.

Don
I agree; my 73 was painted in March 2010 and I drive it almost weekly in warm weather, but I have not washed it nor has it been wet from rain since March 2010 (and before). It got a little mist on it driving home from a car show, but I was only about a mile away from home when it started.

 

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Here's the finished product. I sanded with 600 then 1000. Primed 3 coats with 4 minutes in between each. Let set 30 minutes and sanded with 1000 grit. Applied 3 coats of paint with 1 hour between coats because I could only get the garage up to 65 degrees. It's now in the house after setting for 90 minutes after the last coat and takes 48 hours to fully cure. So Wednesday when I get home from work, I'll put the water to it. We use our well water to fill a 25 gallon reseviour that circulates the water through a 30 gpm pump and add fresh water about once a week.

DSCN1403.JPG

 

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O.K. Water's back on. It was however pointed out that now the pump needs done! The things I do for this sight. :p

DSCN1404.JPG

 

Tnfastbk

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O.K. Water's back on. It was however pointed out that now the pump needs done! The things I do for this sight. :p
Dont lay the blame on the site, we all know what it is for:p

 
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