There and back again.

[72HCODE]

10 years later and I'm still paying for a mistake I made. Nothing can suck the life out of something faster then when you have to keep going back and repeating the same mistake over and over hoping for a different outcome.

I feel compelled to write this out. It is one man's opinion and experience, let it just serve as a warning to others getting started or a seasoned Vet. My profile lists me as a tech adviser. Some regard that as being an expert but I remind people I'm only an expert on one car that sits in my garage.

I've walked through the coals of restoration the trial of fire and gotten 1st degree burns, skin grafts that never took or healed right.

Here were are again in the garage for 2014 fixing something that should not be broken yet again, on a car that is 97% made in china not Dearborn Michigan.

Some things are forgivable: Falling for the B.S. of poly-bushings on a street car then going deaf from the endless squeaking, getting to redo all the bushings to rubber so i didn't have to drive with ear plugs.

Getting conned into Aftermarket ignition wires and the nightmare they caused on the ignition system.

Having to put 3 or 4 exhaust systems, I lost count, on the car mostly do to my own stupidity and lack of skills.

Then we come to Stainless steel brake lines the bane of my cars existence. These lines have been the gift that keeps on giving, these lines cost me hundreds of hours of extra labor and money and continue to give me grief every year.

It all started when I discovered my car was in fact a piece of junk and needed everything. Scrolling down the endless parts order list it came time to replace the brake lines and how now I dread that I chose to add 15$ to upgrade to stainless steel lines.

I was 'gung ho' stainless sounds awesome, never rust, never have a problem again, oh how i wish.

The first tip off should of been when a simple brake system overhaul turned into a 6 month adventure to Mordor where I really wanted to throw my precious into a volcano and be done with it.

See stainless lines require that you tighten them WAY past spec because the stainless steel will not give on the cone seals like mild steel. Thus i got to replace the proportioning valve 5 TIMES because the fittings stripped, i got to deal with a never ending leak on every major joint, i got to bleed the brakes i don't even know how many times, and a never ending nagging leak from the master cylinder that i could never stop. I replaced the master 4 times. It was always interesting inspecting the damage the stainless lines did to the cast iron or brass inserts. I lied to my self each time, it is getting better, as i rocked back in forth in the corner of the garage with a 100 yard stare.

Last year another master went in and proceeded to leak worse then any one before it. For 2014 I ordered yet another one.... and there i was just an hour or 2 ago, ripping out yet another part that i should not have to still paying the rent on something i don't want to live in anymore.

Inspecting the damage done to the seals again i came to the conclusion these stainless lines have got to go at least from the prop valve to the master and I'm dreading the swap. I know the prop valve is damaged from the stainless, and i know those Threads on it are right at the stripping point from the nightmare that began 10 years ago. I might have to replace the prop valve yet again but then really think about the other stainless lines below the car and behind the engine.

So while I want to rock myself back to sleep in the corner i know i must bite the bullet yet again and take the walk to the slay the dragon.

I offer this advice, if you wanted to change your brake lines to stainless steel, Do not. If you have a set of stainless steel lines sitting on the shelf to finish your project return them A.S.A.P or throw them away and start over. If you have them on your car and have no problems with them God bless you, i don't have that kind of luck.

I was told to enjoy the journey it isn't about the destination, I call Bollocks on that there comes a time when you must reach a destination.

thank you for you time.

 

[Don65Stang]

No stainless lines, poly bushings or aftermarket wires for me after reading that! Thanks for sharing/venting Dan. I'm glad you stepped back to reassess with the 100 yard stare. Sometimes I don't do that and press onward. Then other damage happens due to frustration.

What wires did you go with that work?

Best if luck with the brake lines.

 

[72HCODE]

when ever anybody asks me about poly.

I tell them about the squeaking first, usually at a car meet

that starts the conversation about how awful poly bushings are.

then if somebody is still skeptical. I show them this:





if they still don't listen i wish them luck. I went to OEM reproduction rubber bushings and never had another issue.

when they ask what the other strut rod looked like i tell them there was no poly bushing on it,, because it fell off... loss of control at highway speed when braking and the sound of the metal washers slapping into my strut rod cross member is still the stuff of nightmares.

--------

As for ignition wires. i wrote i don't know how many posts about the problems i went through and the wasted time and money they cause.

Plain old Carbon core filament wires, OEM spec. They work 100%.

the reproduction wires from martini auto works are just fine have no complaints with them and having the correct markings on them is nice.

-----

There are bad reproduction parts believe me i've seen it all, there are also good ones or the ones you have to make due with.

 

[OLE PONY]

Sorry you are having all those problems and thanks for the rant! I still have original brake lines and have thought I would step up to stainless when I need to replace, but taking your advice I will stay with OE type.

 

[73MustangCoupe]

I just scraped the old brake lines on Rusty last weekend. They were shot to pieces after 41 years, and probably more than 20 years of sitting. I was going to switch to stainless lines, but now, OEM steel brake lines, rubber bushings, and Midlife to refurb the wiring harness. Thanks for the heads up.

 

[hyena429]

Great information Hcode!! I will be staying away from stainless steel lines.

 

[Doug The Dog]

I installed S/S brake lines on my mustang as well. I replaced them before I even got the master cylinder installed because they were just too difficult to work with. Thank God I didn't have the engine or transmission installed yet. I bought new soft metal brake lines, and they went in quite nice, plus added bonus, no leaks when I installed the master cylinder and bled the system. So, I'm out an additional $100. For the majority of us, our cars will never see salty roads and poor weather conditions, so what's the point anyway? Sign me up for the non stainless steel believer section!

-Travis

P.S.

Does anybody want a slightly used set of stainless steel brake lines? LOL!

 

[detritusmaximus]

I've been contemplating the SS lines for my car. This issue sends up a warning flag for me, but I might have a solution (standard disclaimer: untried theory only...let your kids be the first!...you can always make more of them). The problem seems to be that the ss is hard and resists deforming enough to seal when installed into aluminum or cast iron as the threads/seats in the softer aluminum or cast iron give way first.

If this is correct, my thought is to get the corresponding fittings in stainless steel and 'pre-seal' the lines using fittings that are just as hard as the lines. Then install into the car.

In my opinion, poly bushings are good for certain areas where you do not want much compliance. I also found out the hard way in a friends car that the front strut rod bushings are not the right place for them (or the Midolyne bushings we used). I rebuilt the suspension for him and I was driving when the left front strut rod broke. The bushings were too stiff to allow the strut rod to move with the suspension and the threaded end sheared off.

I would use poly at the rear shackle/leaf bushing. This will reduce the side to side deflection at that bushing but still allow some at the shackle to frame and the front leaf bushing. I'd install a zerk fitting for greasing.

Hey Doug- what do you want for your lines? Really....

I feel compelled to write this out. It is one man's opinion and experience, let it just serve as a warning to others getting started or a seasoned Vet. My profile lists me as a tech adviser. Some regard that as being an expert but I remind people I'm only an expert on one car that sits in my garage.

I feel your pain as I've had to learn things the hard way, too. Especially before the internet when info based on experience was harder to come by. Now we can all share our failures and slow, painful epiphanies (or whatever the plural of 'epiphany' is). No longer do we live in the age of 'A smart man learns from his mistakes'. It is finally the time of 'A smart man learns from the mistakes of others...before doing it himself'.

 

[midlife]

I can just picture you in a fetal position in the corner of the garage, rocking back and forth...

Thanks for including aftermarket wiring in things to forget about installing; your $20 is in the mail. *G*

 

[72HCODE]

[quote=detritusmaximus;

If this is correct, my thought is to get the corresponding fittings in stainless steel and 'pre-seal' the lines using fittings that are just as hard as the lines. Then install into the car.

2 issues,

1 you would need to construct a fixture for this and there are 2 different sizes of fittings.

2 not all the cones have the same pitch. So if you prefit the hose might be acclimated to the wrong angle.

I won't tell you not to try, but you will be investing quite a few hours into it and possibility a lot of money.

A cheap solution that works does exist already.

The more aftermarket parts you take off the car the better it will run, with very few exceptions, that is how I can sum up 10 years of experience.

 

[caspianwendell]

I have been through the same problem on two customer cars who insisted on having ss brake lines, I had to end up telling them "I am done dinking with this, and recommended they switch to steel, or get someone else to fix them. Both customers took their cars to numerous local shops only to be turned away. Last I heard one had switched to steel lines, and the other is still fighting the leaks, and stripped fittings.

I don't know who came up with the idea for SS brake lines, but, I sure wish they could show me how to install them leak free.

 

[JimNiki]

Everybody give 72HCODE rep points for this... He deserves it....

Priceless insight for us at his expense.....

Thanks man ....

 

[detritusmaximus]

2 issues,

1 you would need to construct a fixture for this and there are 2 different sizes of fittings.

2 not all the cones have the same pitch. So if you prefit the hose might be acclimated to the wrong angle.

I won't tell you not to try, but you will be investing quite a few hours into it and possibility a lot of money.

A cheap solution that works does exist already.

The more aftermarket parts you take off the car the better it will run, with very few exceptions, that is how I can sum up 10 years of experience.

Never said it would be easy! Just depends on how determined a person is to have ss lines.

One of the reasons I am contemplating it is because I just replaced two front-to-rear lines on my daily driver after one failed due to corrosion. I had the same thing happen on my van twice, once over the gas tank and a later right at the union where the two fronts split. It was not easy and not something I relish doing yet again. Since I tend to drive my cars more than most and in varied weather corrosion will be a problem. My Mustang is apart and the lines need to be replaced, so it will happen, just have to make a decision.

I don't necessarily trust aftermarket replacement parts to have the same finish or corrosion protection as OEM. How many times have you seen replaced master cylinders/calipers/wheel cylinders that had no coatings on them and got very rusty, very fast?

And I agree about the quality of most aftermarket anything. I always did prefer a car that was tired but still had the original parts as opposed to the socalled 'upgrades' and other improvements people make when they don't really understand these things in the first place.

 

[caspianwendell]

2 issues,

1 you would need to construct a fixture for this and there are 2 different sizes of fittings.

2 not all the cones have the same pitch. So if you prefit the hose might be acclimated to the wrong angle.

I won't tell you not to try, but you will be investing quite a few hours into it and possibility a lot of money.

A cheap solution that works does exist already.

The more aftermarket parts you take off the car the better it will run, with very few exceptions, that is how I can sum up 10 years of experience.

Never said it would be easy! Just depends on how determined a person is to have ss lines.

One of the reasons I am contemplating it is because I just replaced two front-to-rear lines on my daily driver after one failed due to corrosion. I had the same thing happen on my van twice, once over the gas tank and a later right at the union where the two fronts split. It was not easy and not something I relish doing yet again. Since I tend to drive my cars more than most and in varied weather corrosion will be a problem. My Mustang is apart and the lines need to be replaced, so it will happen, just have to make a decision.

I don't necessarily trust aftermarket replacement parts to have the same finish or corrosion protection as OEM. How many times have you seen replaced master cylinders/calipers/wheel cylinders that had no coatings on them and got very rusty, very fast?

And I agree about the quality of most aftermarket anything. I always did prefer a car that was tired but still had the original parts as opposed to the socalled 'upgrades' and other improvements people make when they don't really understand these things in the first place.

The thing about SS is it is an A-N angle and not all parts (masters, porp valves, and wheel cylinders) have this degree of angle and that makes it extremely hard to get a seal. If you can buy all parts with the same head angle then it's all good, but not on our cars.

 

[72HCODE]

for giggles i went out and removed the 2 SS lines from the master to the prop valve, i expected the worst with the threads being gone,, i apparently got lucky the threads are worn but ok. there are brass flakes that i will need to clean out and i'll have to flush out the brake fluid anyway now.

i looked at the SS double flair on both hoses, in 8 years and i don't know how much ton of pressure i put on it the Flair didn't seat at all you could still see what i call the wrinkle in the Stainless from the force needed to form the original flair. all that dame SS hose did was Gouge the hell out of the cone, i just hope the mild steel line will seat with the gouge from the stainless on the cone.

these SS lines are just a headache. believe me 10 years ago i was pro them.

i can't do anything about the lower lines at this point they are not leaking but seriously stick with mild steel.

look at it this way... If your brake lines are corroding, that fast something is up because i have a 20 year old daily driver and other then replacing a soft line and flushing the system there hasn't been an issue and i'm in the rust belt.

Salt and alien blood acid on the roads.

Also i used to be of the same mind set,,, oh Put Stainless in it will never leak or rust from corrosion, they are awesome.

Bull you know why? the flair nuts were both rusted and corroding on the Stainless hose anyway the nuts are not stainless. Plus the things leak and wreck fitting. i can take a pic of the rust from the flair nuts if needed.

Here is the truth, if a mild line corrodes you can replace it easy compared to a stainless line, I'm not kidding you, work with a stainless hardened hose just once you will question your sanity. I had my entire car apart during the SS install and it was a nightmare i should of stopped then.

As for the ford oem parts that rust, its because ford left them uncoated,, i agree its stupid but you can paint them with Eastwood Bare metal sealer or bare metal paint color before install and then they will no longer rust. so they keep concourse looks if wanted.

most brake lines Go from the inside out because of water in the lines so if you flush your system like every 2 years it should make the lines go another 40 years.

some people also make there own brake lines from mild steel that is galvanized so they do not rust,, not sure if shafer offers that option

There are things i did do stainless and i would do again.

I used a stainless fuel line and a Stainless Vapor return line. I would highly recommend this.

now i used Stainless transmission lines. and i guess because the Fluid pressure is lower in a transmission verse brake system that never leaked. This i would most likely Today have used mild steel on.

I used stainless on the transmission modulator line,, this i would recommend.

stainless has a VERY high crush point so its perfect for a rubber hose clamp connection outside of the brake system.

If you want stainless go for it.

 

[detritusmaximus]

The thing about SS is it is an A-N angle and not all parts (masters, porp valves, and wheel cylinders) have this degree of angle and that makes it extremely hard to get a seal. If you can buy all parts with the same head angle then it's all good, but not on our cars.

I would have expected the lines premade for these cars would have fittings correct for the car?

 

[c9zx]

10 years later and I'm still paying for a mistake I made. Nothing can suck the life out of something faster then when you have to keep going back and repeating the same mistake over and over hoping for a different outcome.

I feel compelled to write this out. It is one man's opinion and experience, let it just serve as a warning to others getting started or a seasoned Vet. My profile lists me as a tech adviser. Some regard that as being an expert but I remind people I'm only an expert on one car that sits in my garage.

I've walked through the coals of restoration the trial of fire and gotten 1st degree burns, skin grafts that never took or healed right.

Here were are again in the garage for 2014 fixing something that should not be broken yet again, on a car that is 97% made in china not Dearborn Michigan.

Some things are forgivable: Falling for the B.S. of poly-bushings on a street car then going deaf from the endless squeaking, getting to redo all the bushings to rubber so i didn't have to drive with ear plugs.

Getting conned into Aftermarket ignition wires and the nightmare they caused on the ignition system.

Having to put 3 or 4 exhaust systems, I lost count, on the car mostly do to my own stupidity and lack of skills.

Then we come to Stainless steel brake lines the bane of my cars existence. These lines have been the gift that keeps on giving, these lines cost me hundreds of hours of extra labor and money and continue to give me grief every year.

It all started when I discovered my car was in fact a piece of junk and needed everything. Scrolling down the endless parts order list it came time to replace the brake lines and how now I dread that I chose to add 15$ to upgrade to stainless steel lines.

I was 'gung ho' stainless sounds awesome, never rust, never have a problem again, oh how i wish.

The first tip off should of been when a simple brake system overhaul turned into a 6 month adventure to Mordor where I really wanted to throw my precious into a volcano and be done with it.

See stainless lines require that you tighten them WAY past spec because the stainless steel will not give on the cone seals like mild steel. Thus i got to replace the proportioning valve 5 TIMES because the fittings stripped, i got to deal with a never ending leak on every major joint, i got to bleed the brakes i don't even know how many times, and a never ending nagging leak from the master cylinder that i could never stop. I replaced the master 4 times. It was always interesting inspecting the damage the stainless lines did to the cast iron or brass inserts. I lied to my self each time, it is getting better, as i rocked back in forth in the corner of the garage with a 100 yard stare.

Last year another master went in and proceeded to leak worse then any one before it. For 2014 I ordered yet another one.... and there i was just an hour or 2 ago, ripping out yet another part that i should not have to still paying the rent on something i don't want to live in anymore.

Inspecting the damage done to the seals again i came to the conclusion these stainless lines have got to go at least from the prop valve to the master and I'm dreading the swap. I know the prop valve is damaged from the stainless, and i know those Threads on it are right at the stripping point from the nightmare that began 10 years ago. I might have to replace the prop valve yet again but then really think about the other stainless lines below the car and behind the engine.

So while I want to rock myself back to sleep in the corner i know i must bite the bullet yet again and take the walk to the slay the dragon.

I offer this advice, if you wanted to change your brake lines to stainless steel, Do not. If you have a set of stainless steel lines sitting on the shelf to finish your project return them A.S.A.P or throw them away and start over. If you have them on your car and have no problems with them God bless you, i don't have that kind of luck.

I was told to enjoy the journey it isn't about the destination, I call Bollocks on that there comes a time when you must reach a destination.

thank you for you time.

Very true and well said! "I was told to enjoy the journey it isn't about the destination, I call Bollocks on that there comes a time when you must reach a destination." These are the same people that will tell you the process is more important than the outcome. Hang in there and thanks for posting a great cautionary tale that will likely aid the readers when making such decisions.

Chuck

 

[Mister 4x4]

All I know is when I went with Inline Tube's mild steel lines, I had some of the same issues - and their kit wasn't even stainless!

Face it - not everything made these days is any better [or even equal in many cases] to the OEM stuff back in the day. I probably could've gotten away with leaving my OE brake lines alone... but mangled too many of them removing the components they connected to.

Having had the issues I did with straight-up steel replacement lines, I can only imagine what a PITA the stainless kit would've been.

 

[72HCODE]

When they make the double flairs on the hose the angle depends on the tool used during the process, so the angles will never be correct the idea is the metal will give over the cone and reach the correct shape. However stainless will not give.

The cones are all softer metal and the threaded fittings all made of softer steel or brass so the stainless is like Trying to force a diamond to crack by smashing play dough into it, it will never happen. Mild steel hoses shape like lead very soft so the hose conforms to the cone angle with very little pressure.

Something else to think about stainless being so hard makes me wonder what happens to it in a accident. It won't give so I bet it would punch through the fire wall instead.