Top loader problem...HELP!!!

[Stanglover]

Pulled the transmission and was able to FINALLY see the problem. 4th gear is indeed the problem. The synchronizer is stuck so I am not able to wiggle the input shaft and slide into 4th. All other gears operate properly. Now, I can still move the shifter lever to neutral and also lock it into 3rd. When I have all three levers in the neutral position, I can turn the input shaft, and the output shaft turns with it, as it should. If the synchronizer has 4th locked in, would I be able to turn the input freely with everything in neutral? That has me stumped, but then I'm not a transmission genius. It would make sense if it was locked in because, as I initially wrote, when I tried letting the clutch out when it was in reverse, the engine started bogging down immediately showing something is locked.. 

Am I explaining this clearly enough?  :chin:

I tried tapping lightly on the side (not the tooth) of the synchronizer with a small screwdriver and hammer. It wouldn't even wiggle, so I quit. Don't need to cause anymore issues. Anyone ever released a stuck syncro ?

  I hate to say it, but do you have a good manual transmission guy nearby? It's not quite the same issue that I had on mine, it was just rough shifting. A rebuild with new syncro's, bearings and seals solved that issue, just cost me 500 bucks cash.

 

[yellowmach351]

Looking at diagrams, it looks like I am tapping on one of the blocker rings. That is whats stuck

 

[yellowmach351]

Pulled the transmission and was able to FINALLY see the problem. 4th gear is indeed the problem. The synchronizer is stuck so I am not able to wiggle the input shaft and slide into 4th. All other gears operate properly. Now, I can still move the shifter lever to neutral and also lock it into 3rd. When I have all three levers in the neutral position, I can turn the input shaft, and the output shaft turns with it, as it should. If the synchronizer has 4th locked in, would I be able to turn the input freely with everything in neutral? That has me stumped, but then I'm not a transmission genius. It would make sense if it was locked in because, as I initially wrote, when I tried letting the clutch out when it was in reverse, the engine started bogging down immediately showing something is locked.. 

Am I explaining this clearly enough?  :chin:

I tried tapping lightly on the side (not the tooth) of the synchronizer with a small screwdriver and hammer. It wouldn't even wiggle, so I quit. Don't need to cause anymore issues. Anyone ever released a stuck syncro ?

  I hate to say it, but do you have a good manual transmission guy nearby? It's not quite the same issue that I had on mine, it was just rough shifting. A rebuild with new syncro's, bearings and seals solved that issue, just cost me 500 bucks cash.

I do believe you are absolutely correct. There are a lot of them around. Think I'll be calling a few come Monday. Have a great weekend.

 

[yellowmach351]

Are U SURE!!!!!!!! that reverse is in neutral position???

if so than...

well you are out of options

I think you will have to pull the trans and pop the cover off to see whats up.

You should be able to hold the input shaft in your hand and turn the output shaft while in neutral.

Paul

Paul

Just re-read this. I cannot hold the input and turn the output. They both turn together when all levers are in neutral. I'm stumped. Taking it to a repair shop.

 

[rocket366]

Good luck

Labor should be a few hundred plus parts.

A rebuild kit with bearings, cyncros and small parts will be

a couple hundred more.

At least in the end you will have a fresh box!

Keep us posted.

Cheers

Paul

 

[Stanglover]

Yes, good luck with it and do let us know how it works out. If you have more than 1 shop that "says" they can do Ford toploaders, I think I would still get a couple of quotes, but that's likely stating the obvious.

 

[MeZapU]

I mentioned a synchronizer ring in my last post as that is what most people refer to them as. I've rebuilt scores of toploaders in the past.

The brass rings are called "blocker rings", the teeth on the specific gear itself(1st,2nd,3rd,4th) are the "clutching teeth". The tapered surface the blocker ring seats onto is called the "clutch cone". The ring that slides between 1-2 or 3-4 is called the "synchronizer ring". The synchronizer ring fits over the "hub" and it locates the "keys".

You can pry the brass blocker ring away from the clutch cone (towards the rear of the transmission if it's 4th gear which is basically the input shaft) with a flat bladed screwdriver. Pry a little, spin the input shaft 180 and pry some more to get it unstuck. If it was bogging down the engine it must really be mashed on there.

A picture is worth a thousand words. Post one up and I'll try to help. I can even post a picture back if it would help.

 

[yellowmach351]

I mentioned a synchronizer ring in my last post as that is what most people refer to them as.  I've rebuilt scores of toploaders in the past.  

The brass rings are called "blocker rings", the teeth on the specific gear itself(1st,2nd,3rd,4th) are the "clutching teeth".  The tapered surface the blocker ring seats onto is called the "clutch cone".  The ring that slides between 1-2 or 3-4 is called the "synchronizer ring".  The synchronizer ring fits over the "hub" and it locates the "keys".  

You can pry the brass blocker ring away from the clutch cone (towards the rear of the transmission if it's 4th gear which is basically the input shaft) with a flat bladed screwdriver.  Pry a little, spin the input shaft 180 and pry some more to get it unstuck.  If it was bogging down the engine it must really be mashed on there.

A picture is worth a thousand words.  Post one up and I'll try to help.  I can even post a picture back if it would help.

Excellent. Thank you. I will take a picture tomorrow. I took one today, attached,  with the the shifter fork as far to the left as it will go. You can see that it won't engage any further than that. I will post a picture tomorrow with the fork all the way to the right, engaging 3rd gear, so that you can see the issue. Thank you for any help you can give me.



ui uploader

 

[Stanglover]

I mentioned a synchronizer ring in my last post as that is what most people refer to them as.  I've rebuilt scores of toploaders in the past.  

The brass rings are called "blocker rings", the teeth on the specific gear itself(1st,2nd,3rd,4th) are the "clutching teeth".  The tapered surface the blocker ring seats onto is called the "clutch cone".  The ring that slides between 1-2 or 3-4 is called the "synchronizer ring".  The synchronizer ring fits over the "hub" and it locates the "keys".  

You can pry the brass blocker ring away from the clutch cone (towards the rear of the transmission if it's 4th gear which is basically the input shaft) with a flat bladed screwdriver.  Pry a little, spin the input shaft 180 and pry some more to get it unstuck.  If it was bogging down the engine it must really be mashed on there.

A picture is worth a thousand words.  Post one up and I'll try to help.  I can even post a picture back if it would help.

 Mike, Thanks for your clarity on how these 4 speed toploaders work. Most of us unfamiliar with the actual workings of these boxes are probably only aware of the terms "Syncro Rings" or "Blocker Rings" as the parts that allow smooth shifts. Your knowledge serves to inform me/us to the correct use of these terms. Thank you.

Geoff.

 

[yellowmach351]

Success!!!!! Thank you so much Me ZapU. I am attaching a picture, just for reference purposes, but I pried evenly, 180º and the blocker ring came away from the gear pretty easily. I was a little nervous about prying too much before, until you said to do it. Everything looks good. There was always plenty of gear lube, so it's always been well lubricated. I was never hard on this tranny, so I don't believe anything is hurt. How it got stuck in 4th, I'll never know. When I moved it from my garage some time ago out to my shop, that's a 150' drive that never came out of 1st gear. Then, I backed it into the shop and shut it off.  :chin: I have turned all the shift levers several times and all the gears and neutral lock in and operate smoothly. 

Thank you all that offered suggestions. Rocket 366, Stanglover and MeZapU kept sticking with me to try and work this out. I appreciate you guys. :bravo:

 

[Stanglover]

Success!!!!! Thank you so much Me ZapU. I am attaching a picture, just for reference purposes, but I pried evenly, 180º and the blocker ring came away from the gear pretty easily. I was a little nervous about prying too much before, until you said to do it. Everything looks good. There was always plenty of gear lube, so it's always been well lubricated. I was never hard on this tranny, so I don't believe anything is hurt. How it got stuck in 4th, I'll never know. When I moved it from my garage some time ago out to my shop, that's a 150' drive that never came out of 1st gear. Then, I backed it into the shop and shut it off.  :chin: I have turned all the shift levers several times and all the gears and neutral lock in and operate smoothly. 

Thank you all that offered suggestions. Rocket 366, Stanglover and MeZapU kept sticking with me to try and work this out. I appreciate you guys. :bravo:

That's awesome!! saved you a few hundred bucks to boot. Hopefully, it will not be a problem in future. Thanks too for your comments

 

[MeZapU]

Good to hear and glad I could help.