351 Cleveland Build

Cleveland Crush said:

But to the original poster 78 Mach1, I question if your rockers are Harland-Sharp, they appear too Red vs Harland's Orange anodizing.

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They are definitely Orange anodizing, not red. I think it’s the light in that photo. Here’s hopefully a better picture.


Even in these pictures they look slightly red. But in person they are definitely orange.

Ditch those stock 2 piece valves for sure!! I had one come apart in my motor and destroyed it!

turtle5353 said:

Ditch those stock 2 piece valves for sure!! I had one come apart in my motor and destroyed it!

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Oh my!! You put up a very convincing argument. Valves will be replaced for sure. Thank you for the warning.

78 Mach1 said:

Oh my!! You put up a very convincing argument. Valves will be replaced for sure. Thank you for the warning.

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I also strongly recommend replacing those old factory multi grove valves.

The factory heads are good heads but by the time you spend the money to prep them for performance, you might want to compare the cost of TFS heads. Their advantages are lighter weight, better heat dissipation and combustion chamber design, hardened valve seats. Bronze guides.
Regardless of which heads you use, checking for proper rocker geometry and push rod length is essential. Camshaft base circle, lifters, head surfacing, block surfacing, milling rocker stud bosses, valve installed height all affect push rod length and rocker geometry. Several articles on rocker geometry are out there and as stated previously in this thread, midlift is one school of thought. Regardless of which method you choose, the most important, in my opinion, is that the wear pattern is not too close to the edge of the valve stem. Also need to ensure the rocker has proper clearance to the valve spring retainer. You also want to make sure the rocker arm slot doesn’t hit the stud through out its travel. With that said, I look for a narrow wear pattern centered on the valve stem to avoid side loading and premature guide wear. I noticed when using aftermarket guide plates, you also want to make sure the rocker lines up with the valve stem. The bottom line is there’s a lot of things to check when assembling your valvetrain to get the best performance while minimizing wear. If you plan on raising your RPM range and using a high lift cam, valvetrain weight is another factor to consider.

With regard to your head mis-match, I have a mismatched pair with one D0AE and on eD1AE. If you're interested, maybe we could do some sort of a swap. PM me if you're interested. I'm looking for a D0AE head.

78 Mach1 said:

Here are the valves I pulled out. I’m guessing these are the multi groove ones you are referring to.



Guess this means I need to replace the valves? Just for my knowledge, is this a requirement, or nice insurance? Reason I’m asking, is I know there are many things that are nice to do but not necessarily required. I don’t mind spending money where I need to, but also don’t have the budget to spend unnecessarily. But I certainly am willing and wanting to do it right if it prevents catastrophic failure later. Which would obviously be much more expensive in the long run.

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My thought is that if someone is building a stock engine with OEM vavle springs, the multi-groove vavles/retainers are a fairly low risk....still some risk, but lower due to the lower stress on the parts. Since you're wanted to boost HP, you'll go with a higher spring rate, more lift, and higher RPM you are much higher risk. In your shoes, I'd replace them.

Take a look at alexparts.com for your valvetrain parts.

I have no real engine knowledge, so I'm enjoying reading this thread.
The one thing my engine builder told me was that the stock exhaust vales are two piece and as the seats needed to be redone anyway, he installed one piece SS exhaust valves. I do not know if they are single groove or not.
As for finding date codes, they are located between the valve springs. As for the heads you have, I think you'll see on the D0AE head there is an N for the smaller CC chambers and on the D1AE will be followed by GA. There are other letter used, so may not be N, could be G,H M or R on the D0AE head.
They are imo, a mismatched set.

Since we're talking rocker arms, I've just received my TFS roller cam heads. I was going to keep it simple by using their recommended roller rockers part number TFS-53400621 (1.73 Ratio). Any idea if these are also the correct geometry? Also, I see two part numbers at Summit for Harland Sharp rockers part number S4005 and part number SH4005. Both correct geometry? One more heavy duty than the other? The engine is fairly mild using a pretty fresh but stock bottom end, about 9.5+:1 static compression, Howards 571/577 lift 270/278 duration cam.

Rob

Stanglover said:

, I think you'll see on the D0AE head there is an N for the smaller CC chambers and on the D1AE will be followed by GA.

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You are exactly correct. The D0 head has an N and the D1 head has a GA.


When I look closely, I can see the chamber difference. The D0 head chamber is slightly more shallow. Almost like if you milled the deck on the D1 head making a hollower chamber. I don’t know if this difference is enough to matter. But definitely visually noticeable.

Also, does anyone know why these heads have this spacer looking thing under the valve spring?

It is not present on all locations. So I’m curious if these are shims of some sort. I believe they were under all intake springs and only about half the exhaust springs.

78 Mach1 said:

Also, does anyone know why these heads have this spacer looking thing under the valve spring? View attachment 84552
View attachment 84553
It is not present on all locations. So I’m curious if these are shims of some sort. I believe they were under all intake springs and only about half the exhaust springs.

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Yes those are shims. Used to adjust spring height thus ensuring all have the specified pressure and height for your application. If you're going to reuse the springs don't get the shims out of order.

RJM72 said:

Since we're talking rocker arms, I've just received my TFS roller cam heads. I was going to keep it simple by using their recommended roller rockers part number TFS-53400621 (1.73 Ratio). Any idea if these are also the correct geometry? Also, I see two part numbers at Summit for Harland Sharp rockers part number S4005 and part number SH4005. Both correct geometry? One more heavy duty than the other? The engine is fairly mild using a pretty fresh but stock bottom end, about 9.5+:1 static compression, Howards 571/577 lift 270/278 duration cam.

Rob

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The complete Mid-Lift method calls for both the valve to rocker and pushrod to rocker angle be 90 degrees at 1/2 of the total lift. I can't say whether the HS rockers will or will not adjust to the "complete" Mid LIft method....

It's my opinion that you get the vast majority of benefit by adjusting the valve to rocker side per Mid Lift and live with what the pushrod side gives you. It's still a good idea to check the pushrod side to ensure the deviation from 90 deg. is not grossly out of spec.

78 Mach1 said:

Also, does anyone know why these heads have this spacer looking thing under the valve spring? View attachment 84552
View attachment 84553
It is not present on all locations. So I’m curious if these are shims of some sort. I believe they were under all intake springs and only about half the exhaust springs.

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The head you are showing has a date code of 0M9 i.e. 1970 December 9th That is probably the D1AE-GA head, correct?

Here they are in order.

D0 head




D1 head




Do these pictures help? I’d like to get this head thing sorted before ordering any of the parts so I know exactly what I have.

Pick a shop with experience with the cutting and tapping procedure for 351C heads. It requires a complex angle cut. If done wrong, the heads are scrap iron. Chuck

78 Mach1 said:

Here they are in order.

D0 head
View attachment 84556
View attachment 84557
View attachment 84558

D1 head

View attachment 84559
View attachment 84560
View attachment 84561
Do these pictures help? I’d like to get this head thing sorted before ordering any of the parts so I know exactly what I have.

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The other N head is 1969 Sept 30.
Month codes are in order from A - January to M - December with NO "I".
If it were me, I'd try to find another "N" head.

c9zx said:

Pick a shop with experience with the cutting and tapping procedure for 351C heads. It requires a complex angle cut. If done wrong, the heads are scrap iron. Chuck

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I'm not 100% sure, but I think I saw a specialized tool somewhere that is designed to accurately cut that compound angle for studs. It would for sure be a tricky set-up, especially as the pedestals are offset, without some "trick tool".
Found this article:

https://www.motortrend.com/how-to/ford-heads-machine-for-adjustable-valvetrain/

All things considered. I am seriously considering going the aftermarket head route. After adding up all the cost of new valves, keepers, machine work, etc…. I feel ill easily be into the aftermarket aluminum head range. If someone was trying to build a period correct restoration, I see these factory heads being perfect for that. But I’m not. So I need to do some math and decide which way I want to go.

Alloy heads are certainly an option to consider. I noticed in a couple of your pics that the guides are knurled....factor in guide replacement into your cost to properly rebuild the iron heads. If the guides are tight, it's not mandatory, just know that a knurled surface has a much shorter life.