the long studs for centering is key when easing it down. i reda Dan Jones likes to use the pan gasket and he does more head and intake testing (swapping)on Clevelands than anyone i ever heard of so if he likes 'em there must be something to it.
1972 351C runs crap
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Can't say, but if Edelbrock use it, probably OK. Fel-Pro only supply a small tube of RTV with the intake kit, which is what they say to use. I chose not to use silicone at the intake ports, which is why I went for Form-A-Gasket 2. Perhaps #3 is the same thing, but for the European market!! Can't say I've seen #3 here...... just saying.
here is a cut/paste i found on a discussion from 2002 by Dan Jones. For some reason Dan is inclined to share his experience with Clevelands, to the benefit of all in the Cleveland universe.
The pan protects the oil from splashing on the hot exhaust crossover port.
Use it unless you've blocked off the port or have an intake without a
crossover passage (Holley Strip Dominator, for one). The rubber intake
manifold gasket end seals can be troublesome, especially if the heads
and/or intake have been milled. Many builders toss the rubber seals and
just lay down a bead of RTV but I don't like that as I've seen too many
engines with RTV bits clogging up pushrod holes and oil pick ups. I
prefer to buy or make my own end seals from cork. I peen the block rails
with a punch so the gasket won't squeeze out while it's being torqued down.
BTW, this also works well on valve cover gaskets. Use Permatex 300 (the
black stuf I thinkit's called Permatex Aviaton Form-a-Gasket now) or a
contact cement to hold the gaskets in place. Don't use RTV except in the
corners of the end rails and even there I prefer using the red/brown
(hardeneing) Permatex. If you're using the turkey pan, apply a thin layer
of the black Permatex around the ports of the pan. Allow the Permatex to
get tacky before installing. Using long guide on the 4 center (the
vertical ones) will help guide the manifold into place.
Dan Jones
The pan protects the oil from splashing on the hot exhaust crossover port.
Use it unless you've blocked off the port or have an intake without a
crossover passage (Holley Strip Dominator, for one). The rubber intake
manifold gasket end seals can be troublesome, especially if the heads
and/or intake have been milled. Many builders toss the rubber seals and
just lay down a bead of RTV but I don't like that as I've seen too many
engines with RTV bits clogging up pushrod holes and oil pick ups. I
prefer to buy or make my own end seals from cork. I peen the block rails
with a punch so the gasket won't squeeze out while it's being torqued down.
BTW, this also works well on valve cover gaskets. Use Permatex 300 (the
black stuf I thinkit's called Permatex Aviaton Form-a-Gasket now) or a
contact cement to hold the gaskets in place. Don't use RTV except in the
corners of the end rails and even there I prefer using the red/brown
(hardeneing) Permatex. If you're using the turkey pan, apply a thin layer
of the black Permatex around the ports of the pan. Allow the Permatex to
get tacky before installing. Using long guide on the 4 center (the
vertical ones) will help guide the manifold into place.
Dan Jones
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Good input, thanks.
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Odmark
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Well... I found the real problem with cylinder number 5, and its quite worrying....
exhaust pushrod quit his job
seems he had quite a back problem, all crooked and all.
Now this worries me, i pushed the valve down and it moved freely.
What else would cause this misery? Seems it has nothing to get bent against except the rocker.
Now this worries me, i pushed the valve down and it moved freely.
What else would cause this misery? Seems it has nothing to get bent against except the rocker.
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Now that's an Oh Sh*t moment!!
Just as well you pulled the intake before any other damage was done.
Odmark
Well-known member
Yeah Geoff, definitely...
My neighbour had spare cleveland pushrods of the same length, and since everything seem to be moving as it should, and the lifter seems to, well lift, as much as the others, I'm installing a new pushrod and slapping the intake back on, and then see what happens.
Maybe it was just old and the metal fatigued, and could not keep up with the new stiffer springs. I did cheap out on the pushrods since they were straight.
Or maybe its a more serious matter, and then it will probably bend again pretty quick and i will take it from there.
Im so sick of this now so i will probably just trade the car off for something else if that is the case...
My neighbour had spare cleveland pushrods of the same length, and since everything seem to be moving as it should, and the lifter seems to, well lift, as much as the others, I'm installing a new pushrod and slapping the intake back on, and then see what happens.
Maybe it was just old and the metal fatigued, and could not keep up with the new stiffer springs. I did cheap out on the pushrods since they were straight.
Or maybe its a more serious matter, and then it will probably bend again pretty quick and i will take it from there.
Im so sick of this now so i will probably just trade the car off for something else if that is the case...
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Since you have it that far apart, you might consider pulling all the push-rods and checking them all for "straight." :chin:
Good luck - hope this solves your issues. ::thumb::
Good luck - hope this solves your issues. ::thumb::
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Now I'm out of my depth, but are your springs matched to your cam and rockers? Perhaps your springs are too strong for the pushrods.
Hope it all works out for you and take your time setting the intake back on.
Odmark
Well-known member
Mister 4x4: If this works out the way im hoping, i will replace all pushrods just to be sure 
Stanglover: Yes i hope so, i first got dual springs with damper, that someone here told me about.
But then i didnt have the means to prep the heads to take them.
So i talked to a man in southern sweden who has built many clevelands, mild street and race engines, told him my cam specs and he set me up with a set of single springs with damper he said was suitable for the cam.
And yes, i have gotten bolts to use ase guides, no messing up with the intake this time
Stanglover: Yes i hope so, i first got dual springs with damper, that someone here told me about.
But then i didnt have the means to prep the heads to take them.
So i talked to a man in southern sweden who has built many clevelands, mild street and race engines, told him my cam specs and he set me up with a set of single springs with damper he said was suitable for the cam.
And yes, i have gotten bolts to use ase guides, no messing up with the intake this time
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After you get the new push rod in I would check for spring bind, especially on that cylinder.
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Odmark, I'm going off topic here a bit, but perhaps in the long run, it may help you once you get running and back to setting the timing.
I've been playing with my so called reman distributor. I took it apart and got the advance slot that was being used, L13, welded it up on the far side to the pin and resized it for an L10. .410" or 20* crank advance. I still may need to play with springs, but what a difference. I now have 36* at 2700 and no pinging. Played with the vacuum can setting as well. I still have just a small backfire (pop) if I knock it down a gear and stand on it. Perhaps my points are off a bit too. Going back to Pertronix soon though. I'm starting to wish I'd left the 11:1 pistons in now and worked with the dizzy more. It's a dog compared now it's down to 10:1
Keep us posted on the progress,
Geoff.
I've been playing with my so called reman distributor. I took it apart and got the advance slot that was being used, L13, welded it up on the far side to the pin and resized it for an L10. .410" or 20* crank advance. I still may need to play with springs, but what a difference. I now have 36* at 2700 and no pinging. Played with the vacuum can setting as well. I still have just a small backfire (pop) if I knock it down a gear and stand on it. Perhaps my points are off a bit too. Going back to Pertronix soon though. I'm starting to wish I'd left the 11:1 pistons in now and worked with the dizzy more. It's a dog compared now it's down to 10:1
Keep us posted on the progress,
Geoff.
Very good advice but not necessarily easy to do because of the hydraulic lifters bleeding down. I've always done it with solid lifters.
Something caused that pushrod to bend...Don just indicated the prime suspect (in my opinion)...no offense meant, but fatigued parts don't tend to fail in the manner this pushrod failed.
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This article includes a way to calculate coil bind clearances when you don't have the manufacturer's specs.
http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/engine/mopp-0012-valve-spring-installation/
EDIT - Another article:
http://www.crankshaftcoalition.com/wiki/Valve_spring_tech
http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/engine/mopp-0012-valve-spring-installation/
EDIT - Another article:
http://www.crankshaftcoalition.com/wiki/Valve_spring_tech
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Odmark
Well-known member
I checked for coil bind Before when i first installed the springs with the Engine on the stand, and it was not an issue what so ever. Now i dont remember exactly but the clearances were well in the safe zone.
I noticed on the bent pushrod that it had a Deep mark in it, looks like it has "hooked" onto like a "casting edge" in the head (do not know the English Word for this, i hope you understand what i mean). So maybe that pushrod was not straight from the beginning, i possibly missed that one somehow.
I put the new one in and rotated the Engine a couple of times, full revolutions. No problems there at least.
And the pushrod probably got bent immediatly at start up since i picked up the lifter and it is not broken in at all. So i need to redo the break in process now for this lifter.
Intake and Everything on, starting it up again today after work, well see what happens.
I noticed on the bent pushrod that it had a Deep mark in it, looks like it has "hooked" onto like a "casting edge" in the head (do not know the English Word for this, i hope you understand what i mean). So maybe that pushrod was not straight from the beginning, i possibly missed that one somehow.
I put the new one in and rotated the Engine a couple of times, full revolutions. No problems there at least.
And the pushrod probably got bent immediatly at start up since i picked up the lifter and it is not broken in at all. So i need to redo the break in process now for this lifter.
Intake and Everything on, starting it up again today after work, well see what happens.
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When there is no pressurized oil going to the lifters, they will bleed down to a certain extent. This means that the lifter will not open the valve as far (when bled down) as it will when pressurized. Unless you account for this difference, either mathematically or by using a solid lifter, you will not see the true valve lift.
What did you do to account for lifter bleed-down when you checked for coil bind?
If you show a picture of this mark on the push rod, it will be easier to interpret. It sounds like the pushrod was rubbing on the hole it goes through in the head. You're running all the same style of bolt-down non-adjustable rocker arm fulcrums, correct?
Odmark
Well-known member
Soo. New fired up and broke in the last lifter, runs amazing now. 18 vacuum at idle, smooth nice idling, really responsive throttle.
BUT... Im never running out of buts... It now has the tendancy to overheat, dont know if it was because i broke in the lifter inside the garage. Have to check later.
And also the blower motor ("you know cold/warm air, interior fan") has died, as well as the radio.
Both worked when i drove into the garage.
Edit: did not see your post basstrix. Actually i was not the one who checked the coil bind, my neighbour (who also builds and have raced a cleveland before) helped me. So i dont really know what he did :huh:
Yes im running the stock rocker arms.
BUT... Im never running out of buts... It now has the tendancy to overheat, dont know if it was because i broke in the lifter inside the garage. Have to check later.
And also the blower motor ("you know cold/warm air, interior fan") has died, as well as the radio.
Both worked when i drove into the garage.
Edit: did not see your post basstrix. Actually i was not the one who checked the coil bind, my neighbour (who also builds and have raced a cleveland before) helped me. So i dont really know what he did :huh:
Yes im running the stock rocker arms.
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Glad to read that it's running "amazing" now
Odmark
Well-known member
Yes it feels good! feels like im just waiting for the next misfortune though
At least the radio/blower motor etc. Was just the fuse.
Will have to see about the overheating issue, was not a problem before so hopefully it was just because of me breaking in the cam in the garage.
I packed a big toolbox, some spares, a can of gasoline, 20 L of coolant etc. Etc. And im taking it to work tomorrow to give it some miles.
Win or lose
feels like im just waiting for the next misfortune though At least the radio/blower motor etc. Was just the fuse.
Will have to see about the overheating issue, was not a problem before so hopefully it was just because of me breaking in the cam in the garage.
I packed a big toolbox, some spares, a can of gasoline, 20 L of coolant etc. Etc. And im taking it to work tomorrow to give it some miles.
Win or lose
