Coolant does not flow with thermostat installed

[Mister 4x4]

I don't see where it's all that big of a deal whether it's plugged or not - it's only there to allow air bubbles to escape from the block passages below... not to actually provide any meaningful coolant circulation.

 

[justford]

With all the possible causes listed, would any of them cause the coolant to disappear without a trace? Just asking.

 

[Don C]

I don't see where it's all that big of a deal whether it's plugged or not - it's only there to allow air bubbles to escape from the block passages below... not to actually provide any meaningful coolant circulation.

Yes, that is correct, to allow air to escape the block. Too much air can prevent the coolant from circulating around the upper part of the block.

 

[Don C]

With all the possible causes listed, would any of them cause the coolant to disappear without a trace? Just asking.

That's a good point, and what hasn't been resolved. Because (I believe) he is running mostly water it won't show up as well as a water/antifreeze mixture, making any leaks more difficult to spot, whether internal or external. Is it boiling because it is low on water, or loosing water because it is boiling?

 

[Stanglover]

I'm not going to on the site for a couple of weeks, so I hope when I get back on, there is a happy solution to this never ending saga. Looking forward to reading the "why".

Stanglover

 

[midlife]

Have you pulled all of the spark plugs out to see if one is super-clean? If so, that's an indication of a head gasket leak, and that's maybe where the water is going. 1 gallon is a lot to lose, however. My suspicion is that it is simply disappearing out the radiator overflow tank when the water gets hot. When it cools back down, the water level drops below the top rung inside the radiator, and a gallon of water to top everything off is simply going to be expelled next time the engine gets hot.

 

[basstrix]

Here are my suggestions:

1. Make a simple, temporary catch can. Get a 1 gallon jug...tuck it behind the headlight, cut a hole in the cap big enough to slip a tube into it. Punch a small vent hole in the cap so air can move in/out as the jug fills/drains. Get a length of tubing and run from the overflow nipple at the filler neck and make sure it runs all the way to the bottom of the jug. Fill up the radiator and go for your 10 mile drive. While hot, check the jug and observe the amount of water in it. Let it fully cool and then check the level in both the jug and in the radiator. If needed, add water to radiator and note how much is needed to completely fill.

If it's pushing water out the overflow, it will be in the jug when engine is fully warm....once cooled, it should be pulled back into the radiator. If no water ends up in the jug but it's still a gallon low, it's using water...most likely through a crack or head gasket. If a relatively small amount of water is needed to top off after it cools down, it may have pushed out more water than the catch can could hold...returning to 50/50 mix should cure that.

2. Replace the thermostat....no reason you can't use the same restrictor plate/windsor stat you have now, just get another one installed....or re-test the one you have. Don't use a heat gun because you can't control the temperature (but I think you know this by now).

I've never experienced the backwards head gasket thing, but I'm beginning to suspect this is the cause of your gurgling or knocking sound and may also be the reason the previous owner ran w/o a thermostat.

If you want to be certain there isn't a head gasket or cracked head, they make a test kit where you suction gasses from the radiator while coolant is circulating (in your case, you'd have to remove the stat)....the suctioned gasses are pulled through a test liquid....due to a chemical reaction with combustion gasses, the liquid will change color if said gasses are present. I have a kit in my tool chest...I can get you details on this kit if you're interested....I suspect the auto parts stores may have one you can borrow....but you'll probably have to buy the test fluid.

 

[klinton994]

Here are my suggestions:

1. Make a simple, temporary catch can. Get a 1 gallon jug...tuck it behind the headlight, cut a hole in the cap big enough to slip a tube into it. Punch a small vent hole in the cap so air can move in/out as the jug fills/drains. Get a length of tubing and run from the overflow nipple at the filler neck and make sure it runs all the way to the bottom of the jug. Fill up the radiator and go for your 10 mile drive. While hot, check the jug and observe the amount of water in it. Let it fully cool and then check the level in both the jug and in the radiator. If needed, add water to radiator and note how much is needed to completely fill.

If it's pushing water out the overflow, it will be in the jug when engine is fully warm....once cooled, it should be pulled back into the radiator. If no water ends up in the jug but it's still a gallon low, it's using water...most likely through a crack or head gasket. If a relatively small amount of water is needed to top off after it cools down, it may have pushed out more water than the catch can could hold...returning to 50/50 mix should cure that.

2. Replace the thermostat....no reason you can't use the same restrictor plate/windsor stat you have now, just get another one installed....or re-test the one you have. Don't use a heat gun because you can't control the temperature (but I think you know this by now).

I've never experienced the backwards head gasket thing, but I'm beginning to suspect this is the cause of your gurgling or knocking sound and may also be the reason the previous owner ran w/o a thermostat.

If you want to be certain there isn't a head gasket or cracked head, they make a test kit where you suction gasses from the radiator while coolant is circulating (in your case, you'd have to remove the stat)....the suctioned gasses are pulled through a test liquid....due to a chemical reaction with combustion gasses, the liquid will change color if said gasses are present. I have a kit in my tool chest...I can get you details on this kit if you're interested....I suspect the auto parts stores may have one you can borrow....but you'll probably have to buy the test fluid.

Thanks to everyone for all the help. I am going to try the following.

1. enlarge vent hole in aftermarket aluminum restrictor plate.

2. Install a temporary catch reservoir

3. purchase the test kit for combustion gases.

I'll report back with my findings

 

[Carolina_Mountain_Mustangs]

I have not had the issue of a reversed head gasket on a Cleveland but found that on a 289 / 302 in the past. A friend had a 66 fairlane and needed the engine overhauled. I did not have time so another mutual friend that was a Chevy guy did the engine for him. Ground crank, bored, new cam, lifters, rockers, balanced and such. He kept telling me that after he turned the engine off it was gurggling and would spit out fluid from radiator. When I ask the Chevy guy that built the engine if he was sure he put the head gaskets on the right way he said, " they won't go but one way". So knew it was probably backwards. To verify I knocked the core plug out of the front of the head and you can stick your finger in and tell if it is right or not. It was not right. I pulled the head and put new gasket on and all was good. One was right one backwards.

No core plug in cleveland to pull to check head would have to come off. I don't have a gasket here to look at never paid it any attention been 30+ years since I looked at one.

 

[justford]

The thread starter said he had the car for two years without any overheating problems. Would that not eliminate the reversed head gasket as the problem?

 

[basstrix]

The thread starter said he had the car for two years without any overheating problems. Would that not eliminate the reversed head gasket as the problem?

He also ran for those 2 years w/o a thermostat. What effect that has, I don't know because I've never worked with that issue.

 

[klinton994]

Here are my suggestions:

1. Make a simple, temporary catch can. Get a 1 gallon jug...tuck it behind the headlight, cut a hole in the cap big enough to slip a tube into it. Punch a small vent hole in the cap so air can move in/out as the jug fills/drains. Get a length of tubing and run from the overflow nipple at the filler neck and make sure it runs all the way to the bottom of the jug. Fill up the radiator and go for your 10 mile drive. While hot, check the jug and observe the amount of water in it. Let it fully cool and then check the level in both the jug and in the radiator. If needed, add water to radiator and note how much is needed to completely fill.

If it's pushing water out the overflow, it will be in the jug when engine is fully warm....once cooled, it should be pulled back into the radiator. If no water ends up in the jug but it's still a gallon low, it's using water...most likely through a crack or head gasket. If a relatively small amount of water is needed to top off after it cools down, it may have pushed out more water than the catch can could hold...returning to 50/50 mix should cure that.

2. Replace the thermostat....no reason you can't use the same restrictor plate/windsor stat you have now, just get another one installed....or re-test the one you have. Don't use a heat gun because you can't control the temperature (but I think you know this by now).

I've never experienced the backwards head gasket thing, but I'm beginning to suspect this is the cause of your gurgling or knocking sound and may also be the reason the previous owner ran w/o a thermostat.

If you want to be certain there isn't a head gasket or cracked head, they make a test kit where you suction gasses from the radiator while coolant is circulating (in your case, you'd have to remove the stat)....the suctioned gasses are pulled through a test liquid....due to a chemical reaction with combustion gasses, the liquid will change color if said gasses are present. I have a kit in my tool chest...I can get you details on this kit if you're interested....I suspect the auto parts stores may have one you can borrow....but you'll probably have to buy the test fluid.

Thanks to everyone for all the help. I am going to try the following.

1. enlarge vent hole in aftermarket aluminum restrictor plate.

2. Install a temporary catch reservoir

3. purchase the test kit for combustion gases.

I'll report back with my findings

Yesterday, I installed a temporary one gallon container as a coolant recovery reservoir. After driving the car about ten minutes, and making two stops, I inspected the temporary reservoir. It indeed had water that had overflowed into it.

When I arrived at home, the amount of water in the reservoir, equaled what was missing from the radiator.

I also enlarged the bleeder hole on the aftermarket restriction plate using an 11/64" bit. I don't know if this did anything to help the problem of what I described as a knocking sound.

The final thing I did yesterday, and again today, was to test the radiator for combustion gases, using one of those kits that the fluid changes color. I'm sorry to report, that the fluid changed from the color blue, to green. The instructions indicate that for a gasoline motor the color change should be blue to yellow. My thought is that any change from the color blue is not good.

 

[klinton994]

Have you pulled all of the spark plugs out to see if one is super-clean? If so, that's an indication of a head gasket leak, and that's maybe where the water is going. 1 gallon is a lot to lose, however. My suspicion is that it is simply disappearing out the radiator overflow tank when the water gets hot. When it cools back down, the water level drops below the top rung inside the radiator, and a gallon of water to top everything off is simply going to be expelled next time the engine gets hot.

I did remove all the spark plugs, and none of the had a washed or clean appearance. After testing positive for combustion gases in the radiator, I'm thinking that a head gasket, or cracked head, could be what is causing the water to spit out of the radiator.

 

[basstrix]

You may want to contact the manufacturer of the kit and get their input on the partial color change.

I think your thermostat is opening fine, but if you want to make sure, you can run it with the amount of coolant that discharged on your recent test and watch w/o the radiator cap on. It may take a while to open fully.

 

[klinton994]

You may want to contact the manufacturer of the kit and get their input on the partial color change.

I think your thermostat is opening fine, but if you want to make sure, you can run it with the amount of coolant that discharged on your recent test and watch w/o the radiator cap on. It may take a while to open fully.

That's is where my problem is. If I allow the car to reach operating temperature without the cap, the water surges up and down in the radiator, and over flows out of the radiator fill neck. It will lose enough water to drop the level in the radiator down about five inches. Close to the upper transmission coolant line location. I have never been able to see the water circulate because of this condition.

I believe the thermostat is opening correctly

 

[Carolina_Mountain_Mustangs]

Here are my suggestions:

1. Make a simple, temporary catch can. Get a 1 gallon jug...tuck it behind the headlight, cut a hole in the cap big enough to slip a tube into it. Punch a small vent hole in the cap so air can move in/out as the jug fills/drains. Get a length of tubing and run from the overflow nipple at the filler neck and make sure it runs all the way to the bottom of the jug. Fill up the radiator and go for your 10 mile drive. While hot, check the jug and observe the amount of water in it. Let it fully cool and then check the level in both the jug and in the radiator. If needed, add water to radiator and note how much is needed to completely fill.

If it's pushing water out the overflow, it will be in the jug when engine is fully warm....once cooled, it should be pulled back into the radiator. If no water ends up in the jug but it's still a gallon low, it's using water...most likely through a crack or head gasket. If a relatively small amount of water is needed to top off after it cools down, it may have pushed out more water than the catch can could hold...returning to 50/50 mix should cure that.

2. Replace the thermostat....no reason you can't use the same restrictor plate/windsor stat you have now, just get another one installed....or re-test the one you have. Don't use a heat gun because you can't control the temperature (but I think you know this by now).

I've never experienced the backwards head gasket thing, but I'm beginning to suspect this is the cause of your gurgling or knocking sound and may also be the reason the previous owner ran w/o a thermostat.

If you want to be certain there isn't a head gasket or cracked head, they make a test kit where you suction gasses from the radiator while coolant is circulating (in your case, you'd have to remove the stat)....the suctioned gasses are pulled through a test liquid....due to a chemical reaction with combustion gasses, the liquid will change color if said gasses are present. I have a kit in my tool chest...I can get you details on this kit if you're interested....I suspect the auto parts stores may have one you can borrow....but you'll probably have to buy the test fluid.

Thanks to everyone for all the help. I am going to try the following.

1. enlarge vent hole in aftermarket aluminum restrictor plate.

2. Install a temporary catch reservoir

3. purchase the test kit for combustion gases.

I'll report back with my findings

Yesterday, I installed a temporary one gallon container as a coolant recovery reservoir. After driving the car about ten minutes, and making two stops, I inspected the temporary reservoir. It indeed had water that had overflowed into it.

When I arrived at home, the amount of water in the reservoir, equaled what was missing from the radiator.

I also enlarged the bleeder hole on the aftermarket restriction plate using an 11/64" bit. I don't know if this did anything to help the problem of what I described as a knocking sound.

The final thing I did yesterday, and again today, was to test the radiator for combustion gases, using one of those kits that the fluid changes color. I'm sorry to report, that the fluid changed from the color blue, to green. The instructions indicate that for a gasoline motor the color change should be blue to yellow. My thought is that any change from the color blue is not good.

When you have a small leak you do not always pump the water into the cylinder. The combustion pressure pushes into the water passage through either a crack or a leak in the gasket. Now if the gasket or crack is really bad then it will suck the coolant into the chamber and get in oil by blowing by the rings and out the tail pipe. Might be just the beginning of a blown gasket since the test did not come out correct. Interested to know what they say about the color you got.

 

[Don C]

Have you always run mostly water in the cooling system? I have seen cases where the small passages between the block and head have been plugged with rust and scale. The resulting trapped air will cause your symptoms.

 

[Jeff73Mach1]

Sorry I'm late to the party and only skimmed the last few pages. Have you checked to see if the lower hose is collapsing?

 

[klinton994]

Have you always run mostly water in the cooling system? I have seen cases where the small passages between the block and head have been plugged with rust and scale. The resulting trapped air will cause your symptoms.

No. When I purchased the car I had the cooling system flushed and filled with coolant.

 

[klinton994]

Sorry I'm late to the party and only skimmed the last few pages. Have you checked to see if the lower hose is collapsing?

I installed a new lower hose and it doesn't appear to be collapsing. I purchased a spring to install in the hose. However, the inside diameter of the hose is smaller than the spring. Perhaps someone can offer a tip or trick to install the spring.