cudak888: 1971 M-code "Soylent Green" - 8/30/14: Shrinking disc time

[71_resurrection]

That was a lot of bond, sorry to hear of the news Kurt, if worst comes to worst, at least you know how to do a full quarter replacement now... Keep up the good work, I have faith that you can get it right without replacement metal.

 

[cudak888]

Yes you have to hammer from both sides sometimes to get it smooth. As far as hardening goes, you don't use that much heat (will distort) only use enough to be able to manipulate the metal. The disk does the same thing and you should be able to hit both sides with it so torch may not be necessary.

Here's the thing I don't get: What determines where I should hammer? If I have a high spot to the outside, and a low spot to the inside, do I:

• Hammer-off-dolly with a low-crown hammer on the high spot outside and the dolly on the low spot inside
  
• Hammer-off-dolly with a high-crown hammer on the low spot from the inside (from the inside, it's a high spot), and put the dolly on the high spot outside (which, to the inside, is a low spot).
  

It's these details which are not covered in even above-average bodyworking articles that trip me up.

The disc seems to work for me, though I have difficulty telling if it's doing anything. Same for some hammer/dolly work, but I finally became conscious of seeing the high spots coming down and the low spots coming up before my eyes.

That was a lot of bond, sorry to hear of the news Kurt, if worst comes to worst, at least you know how to do a full quarter replacement now... Keep up the good work, I have faith that you can get it right without replacement metal.

No way, Jose. I've got a quarter to replace on the other car, and I'm not doing that here for a minor wrinkle. The lower half will get a butt-welded patch panel, but the upper will not.

That said, if I didn't mind a bit more filler than necessary, the area is already smooth enough to justify no more than 1/8" of it. But that's not good enough.

-Kurt

 

[71_resurrection]

Yes you have to hammer from both sides sometimes to get it smooth. As far as hardening goes, you don't use that much heat (will distort) only use enough to be able to manipulate the metal. The disk does the same thing and you should be able to hit both sides with it so torch may not be necessary.

Here's the thing I don't get: What determines where I should hammer? If I have a high spot to the outside, and a low spot to the inside, do I:

• Hammer-off-dolly with a low-crown hammer on the high spot outside and the dolly on the low spot inside
  
• Hammer-off-dolly with a high-crown hammer on the low spot from the inside (from the inside, it's a high spot), and put the dolly on the high spot outside (which, to the inside, is a low spot).
  

It's these details which are not covered in even above-average bodyworking articles that trip me up.

The disc seems to work for me, though I have difficulty telling if it's doing anything. Same for some hammer/dolly work, but I finally became conscious of seeing the high spots coming down and the low spots coming up before my eyes.

That was a lot of bond, sorry to hear of the news Kurt, if worst comes to worst, at least you know how to do a full quarter replacement now... Keep up the good work, I have faith that you can get it right without replacement metal.

No way, Jose. I've got a quarter to replace on the other car, and I'm not doing that here for a minor wrinkle. The lower half will get a butt-welded patch panel, but the upper will not.

That said, if I didn't mind a bit more filler than necessary, the area is already smooth enough to justify no more than 1/8" of it. But that's not good enough.

-Kurt

I don't blame you, your pictures made it look easy, but I am sure it was quite a feat! Good luck!

 

[caspianwendell]

As you know when a dent occurs the metal is stretched, and creased. placing dollie on the inward crease, and hammering the outward crease around the dent working inward and shrinking the metal as you go is what I do. If you just try to hammer out the low spots, you are forcing the metal that is expanded beyond it's original shape and you will only end up with a lumpy, distorted mess.

 

[cudak888]

As you know when a dent occurs the metal is stretched, and creased. placing dollie on the inward crease, and hammering the outward crease around the dent working inward and shrinking the metal as you go is what I do. If you just try to hammer out the low spots, you are forcing the metal that is expanded beyond it's original shape and you will only end up with a lumpy, distorted mess.

That's what I'm doing, using hammer-off-dolly techniques - dolly on the inward creases, hammer on the high spots around it.

I'm neither shrinking nor stretching with this method; I'm using the metal's memory to best work the stretched areas back into their original locations. After doing as much as I feel is possible with the hammer and dolly (due to the metal being stretched from the crash damage), I put the shrinking disc on the remaining high spot, in the hopes that the stretched metal will shrink, pulling its own high spot down, and the low spot up.

So far, I see nothing but low spots in this panel after taking care of most of them - the high spots either disappear into the low spots with the hammer and dolly, or - if stretched too much - are worked over with the shrinker.

Hence, I still don't understand where I should be reversing the hammer/dolly combo from outside/in to inside/out, respectively - if at all. From what I've read, so long as the hammer has the high spot and the dolly the low, it doesn't matter which side you take - provided the crown of the hammer and dolly match the panel.

Seeing as the panel is concave from the outside and convex from the inside, it would seem to make the most sense that the convex-surface dollies that I use on this panel be used only on the inside, while the hammer should remain on the outside, having less of a crown to its head than the dolly.

Come to think of it, I've never seen a concave dolly (other than concave dolly edges that can be used for curvature shaping). Give how shallow the curve would be, why would anyone risk denting a panel with a low crown hammer on the inside, and a convex dolly on the outside which may nick the panel from its edges?

-Kurt

 

[Qcode351mach]

Kurt,

Did you ever get a shrinking disc ? It's what you need for that repair besides a flat spoon..straight edge...contour gauge..Did you watch my dent repair vids too ? You should have never cut off the lower part TILL you had the upper part smoothed repaired..It's why your having a problem..You need to put the lower section on with some sheet metal screws, It will support the rest of the panel..NEVER cut a panel that you plan to hammer dolly TILL AFTER you repair the dents

 

[cudak888]

Kurt,

Did you ever get a shrinking disc ? It's what you need for that repair besides a flat spoon..straight edge...contour gauge..Did you watch my dent repair vids too ? You should have never cut off the lower part TILL you had the upper part smoothed repaired..

See my above posts - I've been using a 5" Pro Shaper shrinking disc in my workflow (I take it I would be better off with one of the larger units or a disc that has a larger center recess to it to clear the tool's locking ring). Bottom isn't cut off yet, and I have no intentions to until the top is in one piece.

I take it the spoon in the center is closest to what you had in mind?

Will take a look at the videos this evening; thanks for linking me to the right ones.

-Kurt

 

[Qcode351mach]

Kurt,

Did you ever get a shrinking disc ? It's what you need for that repair besides a flat spoon..straight edge...contour gauge..Did you watch my dent repair vids too ? You should have never cut off the lower part TILL you had the upper part smoothed repaired..

See my above posts - I've been using a 5" Pro Shaper shrinking disc in my workflow (I take it I would be better off with one of the larger units or a disc that has a larger center recess to it to clear the tool's locking ring). Bottom isn't cut off yet, and I have no intentions to until the top is in one piece.

I take it the spoon in the center is closest to what you had in mind?

Will take a look at the videos this evening; thanks for linking me to the right ones.

-Kurt

Missed the some of the posts thought you cut off the lower section. Small wide spoon to the left upper corner

 

[cudak888]

Missed the some of the posts thought you cut off the lower section. Small spoon to the left

Flat one or the 90 degree spoon?

I take it to use the spoon as a hammer, not as a dolly, correct?

-Kurt

 

[rottenralph]

I am amazed that you took on this repair. That is a lot of sheet metal work to do in your yard. I stripped my second mustang and learned to do body work. That is why I bought a good car this time. Took 2 months to strip and several months to get all the panels straight and the rust gone. Your project is a whole world further than I traveled to. Lots of interesting lessons along the way. Thanks for sharing.

 

[cudak888]

Well - after waiting two weeks to justify a play-money purchase, I picked up a #1036 dinging spoon to do the rest of the job.

Turns out the crown is too shallow on it. Near as I can figure it, I should pick up one of these two instead:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Martin-Tools-1024-Surfacing-Spoon-/141342096567?hash=item20e8a53cb7&item=141342096567&pt=Motors_Automotive_Tools&vxp=mtr

or

http://www.ebay.com/itm/TP-Tools-Pro-Series-Surfacing-Spoon-TP-7186-/360825814141?hash=item5402e4fc7d&item=360825814141&pt=Motors_Automotive_Tools&vxp=mtr

One step forward...and two steps in five other directions.

-Kurt

 

[cudak888]

Shortly after posting that, it dawned on me that this dinging spoon may work as a slapping hammer. Scott suggested a tool of this style, so I tried it out in said fashion to see what it did.

These are the results:

This is the area I worked on (same picture):

Honestly, I see no progress.

Perhaps this might help - the following photo shows all the tools I have for this purpose. I've been using the long, comma-shaped fender dolly at the bottom left on the inside, with either the hammer on high spots from the outside or the dinging spoon for more or less the same purpose.

What am I doing wrong?

-Kurt

 

[Totalled]

You need a heel dolly. I find I use it more than any other for most things. Try putting a flat dolly on the outside, and work the low spots from the inside with your pick (or cross peen, can't tell from the picture) hammer. Work slow, less is more with the pointy end.

 

[cudak888]

You need a heel dolly. I find I use it more than any other for most things. Try putting a flat dolly on the outside, and work the low spots from the inside with your pick (or cross peen, can't tell from the picture) hammer. Work slow, less is more with the pointy end.

Almost forgot - I have a heel dolly. Hammer is a cross-peen.

I take it work the low spots with the cross-peen and the heel dolly's large side on the high spots outside?

-Kurt

 

[Totalled]

Yeah, I'd try that for a bit. I'm far from an expert, but I did go to school for it about 14 years ago.. And I'd call your latest spoon a slapping spoon.

 

[cudak888]

Yeah, I'd try that for a bit. I'm far from an expert, but I did go to school for it about 14 years ago.. And I'd call your latest spoon a slapping spoon.

I know what I'm doing tomorrow then.

That spoon is too light to be a slapping spoon. Light dinging/finishing spoon, I'd say.

-Kurt

 

[cudak888]

I tried lightly beating the panel hammer-off-dolly for 2 hours with no visible difference.

Then I realized there wasn't enough steel one of the depressed areas to actually bend back out to the curvature of the body - so I started using the low crown heel dolly on the outside, and the hammer on the inside.

BINGO. Works perfectly. For whatever reason, this metal has already been shrunken to a certain extent. It needed to be stretched.

-Kurt

 

[cudak888]

I still don't get it. I've been able to smooth out the line of damage on top, but not any further than what you see below:

Shrinking disc has a tendency to shrink too much - shrinking the crown out of localized areas, requiring hammer-on-dolly to stretch it back out.

Any ideas?

-Kurt

 

[cudak888]

This is where I am now - and I dare say as far as I'll ever get:

-Kurt

 

[caspianwendell]

From the picture it looks good enough for a high build fix. But, nothing like a hands on feel.