High torque starmotor is no more

[Fabrice]

For past time, I got starter motor that went on "free" more and more often.

Today It went on free wheel again 5 times in a row and got tired of it, 

so removed it and saw gear of the bendix was damaged.

Pulling it by hand showed great play, explaining the wrong alignment...

The thing has been used very little, was expensive, and the reason I put it on on the first place

was to fight that hard start issue on Clevelands. Thought it was the bendix, never thought for a second

it would be the gear, now I'm worrying it has also damage the flywheel..

tho, there were metal rests in the casing, no teeth or big bits. So I hope one that is well aligned will turn the engine

If not, I'll have to speed up the AOD swap planned for later... I'll see when so far.

The original one wasn't able to crank unless I had a second battery in trunk when engine was hot and stopped more than 30 secs.

Without the second battery, i had to wait like 30 minutes with hood open, and once cooled off, engine would turn with no prob.

Got loads of advises back then like check starter solenoid, bad connections, battery, timing, protect from heat etc..

While of course all helped, none fixed the issue till I got that baby on.

So the idea is to buy new one, but want buy one that is proven be full proof for the annoying hot start issue

and one that cranks like the one of my 93 t-bird 5.0: smoothly. One that I hope more of you have for a while with no issues.

Prob is the offer for starters is like a jungle, lots of choices, from 50 to $350

While I don't mind pay bits more for a good one, I want one that actually works and I can trust.



This current one was a macleod, was said be a reliable great unit...  You can see how the gear is damaged.

So if you have some tips for me, please start!

 

[jowens1126]

I have this one from Premier Gear in my FUll Size Bronco 5.0. Its been a really good starter. The Exhaust pipe literally is less than 1/4" Away from the front end of the starter and I have never had any heat issues with it not starting. Its also inexpensive. So It might be worth a try, just to see if an inexpensive one will work for you. If not, you have not lost alot of money and you will have a spare for the t-bird. $64 on Amazon

https://www.amazon.com/Premier-Gear-PG-3268-Professional-Starter/dp/B00KY0MPH2/ref=sr_1_1?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1502663970&sr=1-1&keywords=pg-3268

 

[Fabrice]

Thx jovens1126. Looks like a candidate on paper and relatively unexpensive vs other options seen so far.

I'll contact them to make sure it fits a cleveland..

Hoping meanwhile get other experiences from 351c owners

 

[goodnigh]

I bought this one a couple of years ago and am very happy with it.

Have a recently rebuilt Cleveland and was tired of constantly burning

out the starter. This one also has an adjustable plate so it can be

mounted at different angles.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/pwm-9504

mike

 

[Fabrice]

Never hot start issues with it?

You have a C6, FMX or manual trans behind your Cleveland?

I'm not sure it would fit with my headers/trans.

I need the starter to have the biggest volume in line of the hole to fit.

Tho I see same brand have similar one for my application.. thx Goodnigh

 

[turtle5353]

I have a 408 Stroker Cleveland pushing close to 600hp. And a little over 10 to 1 compression. I am still running the stock style starter. Mine is a rebuilt one I put in several years ago, and I have never had an issue yet. It spins it right over. I know when my timing was off a little it was a bitch to start.... wanted to kick back, hard cranking especially hot. But if your motor is dialed in properly it should spin it right over.

 

[Fabrice]

Oh I believe you, I know there is some kind of weird thing about this, many 351c have this problem while others do not. Before replacing the 2v engine by a 4v all was fine too.

I tried the timing (even had a dedicated wrench by me all the time to restore once started to prevent stay 1/2 hour waiting, I would crank better but not nearly as good as when cold),

changed wires, added heat shield, extra battery(that was the most effective), tried different solenoids... the only thing that really cured it completely was that starter upgrade. like by magic, all probs were gone.

I'll let soon the EFI control timing too, so in that regard, it should be even better.

Somehow, when hot it looks like the initial force to crank it needs be significant, once it has turned just enough to reach one loaded cyl, engine starts right away.

For now I would simply love to have a car that can start! and if possible with using similar starter as the previous one that was perfect except with better gear quality.

 

[goodnigh]

Never hot start issues with it?

You have a C6, FMX or manual trans behind your Cleveland?

I'm not sure it would fit with my headers/trans.

I need the starter to have the biggest volume in line of the hole to fit.

Tho I see same brand have similar one for my application.. thx Goodnigh

I have a toploader.  One feature of this starter is it has a "swivel" mount.

Here is what it sounds like.

https://www.7173mustangs.com/thread-engine-start--24282?highlight=engine+start

mike

 

[Hemikiller]

Your best bet is probably going to be a Ford original PMGR starter from a 90's 5.0/5.8 truck. They are quite powerful and usually bulletproof.

 

[eddyw]

Hi Fabrice,

I use this one and i'm very satisfied in combination with a heat shield around the starter  (a little turn on the key and the 351C engine start immediately without any problems) . 

https://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/pwm-9503/applications/make/ford/model/mustang/year/1973

https://www.amazon.com/Powermaster-Starter-Standard-Reduction-Mounting/dp/B000PDGIQ2

http://www.demon-tweeks.co.uk/motorsport/heat-shielding-protection/cool-it-starter-heat-shield

 

[Fabrice]

Eddy, was looking at it yesterday eve. Looking good and would have gone for it but bit cooled off by price tag (thinking of transport and tax added).

My previous (bad) experience with expensive unit plays a role too..

While the Ford original PMGR starter suggested by HemiKiller or the Premier Gear that jowens1126 are more "wallet friendly"

The PMGR would have my pref atm, first regarding its shape to fit my headers, its cost and specs, but haven't found anything black on white that says it supports 351c's

There are a few on Ebay with different serials and the list of compatible engines stops early 90's. Not knowing most vehicules, I have no idea...

How do I tell if this one would be ok on a 351c/fmx? Hemikiller?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Starter-High-Torque-Ford-Mini-PMGR-Racing-302-351-2-1806-FD-2-1806-FD-1-/130649669582?hash=item1e6b53bfce:g:vUMAAOSw--1WsmsC&vxp=mtr#vi-ilComp

 

[jowens1126]

I would call summit or powermaster and ask if the regular pmgr will bolt to a 351c.

 

[Don C]

Yes, because 351 Clevelands use the same bell housings, transmissions, and flywheels as Windsors they use the same starters. Starters must match transmission type, automatics and manuals are different for our year cars. Later years use the same (our year automatic style for manuals).

You can verify this here:

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/pwm-9503/applications/make/ford

 

[jims72]

For past time, I got starter motor that went on "free" more and more often.

Today It went on free wheel again 5 times in a row and got tired of it, 

so removed it and saw gear of the bendix was damaged.

Pulling it by hand showed great play, explaining the wrong alignment...

The thing has been used very little, was expensive, and the reason I put it on on the first place

was to fight that hard start issue on Clevelands. Thought it was the bendix, never thought for a second

it would be the gear, now I'm worrying it has also damage the flywheel..

tho, there were metal rests in the casing, no teeth or big bits. So I hope one that is well aligned will turn the engine

If not, I'll have to speed up the AOD swap planned for later... I'll see when so far.

The original one wasn't able to crank unless I had a second battery in trunk when engine was hot and stopped more than 30 secs.

Without the second battery, i had to wait like 30 minutes with hood open, and once cooled off, engine would turn with no prob.

Got loads of advises back then like check starter solenoid, bad connections, battery, timing, protect from heat etc..

While of course all helped, none fixed the issue till I got that baby on.

So the idea is to buy new one, but want buy one that is proven be full proof for the annoying hot start issue

and one that cranks like the one of my 93 t-bird 5.0: smoothly. One that I hope more of you have for a while with no issues.

Prob is the offer for starters is like a jungle, lots of choices, from 50 to $350

While I don't mind pay bits more for a good one, I want one that actually works and I can trust.



This current one was a macleod, was said be a reliable great unit...  You can see how the gear is damaged.

So if you have some tips for me, please start!

 

[jims72]

I don't know if this'll help, here's my experience. Had a stock CC headed 1970 CL. Put a Isky cam in. with Rhoads lifters. Ran fine till I stopped for gas. Wouldn't start till cooled down. Looking back, I think my "Intake valve closing" was about 50*-60*. My point is "cranking pressure" might have been too high. Did not have a problem until the cam/lifter change. Maybe advancing cam timing would help, by lowering cranking pressure?

 

[Fabrice]

Just to close this thread: thx for all your tips guys!

I went for this baby

Starter Ford Mini PMGR Racing 302 351 MUSTANG Higher Torque

via e-bay from http://dbelectrical.com

Got confirmation on phone its the right application for a 351c+FMX

Very nice people btw.

Dunno how long it will last, specs looks very ok and for the price I can buy at least one more before it cost me same as more expensive unit.

(as for me, resident of the other side of the pool, transport is twice the price of the unit and Mrs FukinDutchTax will add another 21% on top of that too...)

@jims72

my specs went bits up since the original asthmatic 2v... an healthy 4v with alum forged pistons moly rings, extra hard valves springs, 278 crane cam (need find the exact specs of that baby back) etc...

These do add quite a load on the starter... Hope this unit will give me the expected for a while.

Now, back to the usual waiting...