"Modern" performance cars vs "Vintage" performance cars

[Kit Sullivan]

Since I have been driving my Mustang from the very first day it had a license plate on it, and the first day I had a driver license in my wallet...I guess you could that 355,000 miles later, I have become used to it, and know what to expect. I have had many other muscle classics over the years and while each drives differently, old cars are somewhat the same.

I have slso owned several newer "muscle cars", starting with my 82 Mustang GT, the first brand new car I bought as an adult.

My business partner has a 2013 427 'Vette convertible, and I drive that frequently also.

To me the newer cars are are of course more sophisticated and refined, and generally do everything better. But I am still quite comfortable driving either.

Not so with the youngsters these days used to nothing but the new stuff. Put a 20-something behind the wheel of a 67 Vette 427 4-speed (we have one at the shop now) and his first reaction is likely going to be "What's wrong with it?" The rumpty-rump cam makes them think the engine is "off", the instant throttle response from an actual cable attached to thier right foot, coupled with an ultra-responsive carburetor surprises them.

Manhandling the big clunky Inland shifter and the rock-crusher M-22 scares 'em...they think they will break it if they pull too hard on it. The old-style clutches are like a piece of exercise equipment compared to the dainty stuff made today.

I think the "Rough and Tough like Alligator Baggies" nature of the old cars is something I like best about them. They ain't for wimps or timid people.

Any fancy fella can drive a Evo or a WRX...it takes a different sort to really "drive" an old rugged muscle car the way it was intended to be driven.

 

[rocket366]

That is well written sir!

I'm a 60s-70s muscle car guy and ill take a radical cam thumping ground pounder

leg shaking clutch eye watering exhaust beast of that era over anything built after!

 

[Luke]

Good observation.

I like how it takes some amount of brute force to harness the potential in old muscle cars.I also like how there is an element of planning involved if you want to race 1 of these old weapons at a circuit track or even the quick bit of tactics that run through your head for a quick stop light get away. Most of all i love it when all that just becomes automatic when you jump in your old muscle car. The new 1s to me don't require the same combination of physical and mental effort until you start exploring their potential to the edge of their capability.I remember what it was like to own a genuine 450+ hp SBC in the late 80s it was a grumpy highly strung thing,there was some sense of pride for a 19-20 year old kid to have this beast and to have it hang together.

Today you can have a 500hp daily driver LS engine car as a starting point. My young cousin has a SS ute for work with about 480hp and has asked what is wrong with the stang more than once.

 

[kidwithfastback=fast]

As a 17 year-old that decided to buy himself a 72 sportsroof mustang as his first car, I would say that is true for pretty much everybody at my school. I honestly cant stand all the jabber that kids my age speak about their WRX or their Audi or whatever kind of Riceburner they have that mommy and daddy bought for them. I cant have a conversation with any of them without having to sit thru 15 minutes of V-tecs and Turbo flat 4's. Those kids can barely even change a tire, while I spent months doing research, saving money, buying parts and rebuilding most of a car from the engine to the taillights!

Driving modern cars is not nearly as fun as driving cars built 40 years ago, you're disconnected from the road by miles of electronically controlled systems that drive the car for you. You are right kit, modern technology has turned cars into appliances, and a person who has never been around a muscle car or a 60's-70's era car is intimidated by their raw nature.

I can leave my car unlocked at the school parking lot because nobody there could start it, not even with the key. If i could say one thing to the Subaru jerkoffs, I would say as Chopper Reid says "harden the F*CK up!"

 

[Luke]

As a 17 year-old that decided to buy himself a 72 sportsroof mustang as his first car, I would say that is true for pretty much everybody at my school. I honestly cant stand all the jabber that kids my age speak about their WRX or their Audi or whatever kind of Riceburner they have that mommy and daddy bought for them. I cant have a conversation with any of them without having to sit thru 15 minutes of V-tecs and Turbo flat 4's. Those kids can barely even change a tire, while I spent months doing research, saving money, buying parts and rebuilding most of a car from the engine to the taillights!

Driving modern cars is not nearly as fun as driving cars built 40 years ago, you're disconnected from the road by miles of electronically controlled systems that drive the car for you. You are right kit, modern technology has turned cars into appliances, and a person who has never been around a muscle car or a 60's-70's era car is intimidated by their raw nature.

I can leave my car unlocked at the school parking lot because nobody there could start it, not even with the key. If i could say one thing to the Subaru jerkoffs, I would say as Chopper Reid says "harden the F*CK up!"

::thumb::::thumb:: Well done young man. Excellent use of a Aussie reference too.

 

[cudak888]

It's funny. I can't stand the modern stuff, and made the mistake of looking at a 2007 stick GT today that someone had mildly customized. My first reactions reminded me of what Kit pointed out, only a bit in reverse.

I expected the GT's 4.6 to be smooth and "modern" - only to find out that someone had put Flowmasters in it and one coil pack had failed - so it wound up screaming and misfiring like your average Craigslist "I built a musclecar on the side of my house" crap bucket. Lots of mixed signals there.

But then I tried the stick. Almost tore the plastic off. Kept running my fist into the center console expecting room and a long throw. Pushed the pedal down expecting a proper return spring. WHOMP, right to the floor. My blue jeans were slipping silly on the leather seats too. Steering wheel looked and felt like a modern toy from Wal-Mart. The mirror and window rattled. It screamed Made in China.

Wuss car!

By comparison, there was a '67 Lincoln on the lot too (only old thing there). Ghettoized all over, but the interior was original. I sat down in it and immediately felt at home. Didn't even have to question a single part of the interior that I laid eyes on. If it looked solid, it was solid. Made to last. The type of quality that would make you proud if you worked on the assembly line of that car.

-Kurt

 

[Kit Sullivan]

Hey Kid,

That's awesome! You sound like a real "throwback" kinda guy. Its refreshing to see there are least a couple or a few youngsters still thrilled by the dirty, greasy aspects of hot-rod ownership.

Getting your hands dirty...cuts, scrapes and burns...busted knuckles...rust flakes in your eyes...ruining good clothes because you were too impatient to change into old rags...using a table lamp for light because you couldn't leave it until the next day...driving to work in a car with the parts to fix something on it rattling around in the back seat...

These are all the personal, impactful moments you share with your car that makes you two a team, each reponding to the other's idiosycrancies. The more you two become familiar with each other, the more you can accurately anticipate it's reactions when you are really hammering it around town at full-chat.

You get the feeling that you can fully picture every moving part in the car working in perfect harmony and unison with the other parts as you are driving down the road.

In a new car? Who knows what the hell is going on in there? "active" cam positioning, sure: But just what the hell does it do when its working and what are its' adjustments? Fuel injection mapping? can you even try to imagine what the ECM is thinking about at any given moment, or why it is making 600 adjustments per second?

New cars are better, for sure. But they are clinical...detached from your emotions...

You don't reslly "drive" new cars, you are not really "in control"...you just tell the ECM what you want to do, and George Jetson interprets your desires for you and makes decisions based on your goal.

I think the middle-man screws up the joy of the experience. Let my FOOT be what makes the throttle open up, not some electric motor that is following some pre-determined parameter of reasonable accelaration.. Let my HAND turn a key and engage a starter...not flip a switch shaped like an ignition and tell a computer I want it to "start".

Good for you, FastbackKid...don't become too sophisticated

Many young people today are FASCINATED by the self-driving Google-car. That is the beginning of the end for all "real" drivers...

 

[73StangCoupe]

Sounds like we're mostly like minded on this subject. It is a completely different driving experience driving a vintage car. You really have to pay attention driving one of our cars, there is no texting or fiddling with other things while driving. I'll have to admit I do have a certain level of, I guess I would call it anxiety driving my car. My car has not left me stranded, except for running out of gas (my fault). I did drop a drive shaft driving my last coupe doing about 45 mph, that was not a fun experience! Driving one of these cars is not for the light hearted. I guess that is what I like most about owning and driving a vintage car.

 

[1972MustangSVH]

Cuda, I'm on your sheet of music. "Modern" cars feel like goo when you drive them regardless of there performance status. There just isn't any flavor or feel to them. My former son-in-law just had to have a 70 something vette but after he got it all he did was complain about how "junky" it was because it was rough, drove weird, and "things" felt heavy. I gave it a good spanking and it seemed fine to me. Not that a 70's Vette is an outstanding performance vehicle but it is what it is. He sold it and bought a SHO Taurus. Did I mention "former" SIL. LOL

 

[coreysvt]

first off, to hell with that google car! When we can't drive our own cars, that will be the end of our freedom.

I know what you mean about the raw feeling of older cars. My girlfriend just bought a 14 Focus ST, and its kinda boring. Cars these days just don't have any soul. In my opinion, 03 cobras are the last real Muscle Cars, they are rather rough compared to their contemporary counterparts. And the further you go back, the more effort you have to put into driving. Other than my Mach, fox, and cobra, I also have a 63 Grand Prix and my dad has a 69 Dart. they all have so much character. new cars just don't excite me like older models. I'm a twenty something, too, by the way.

 

[rottenralph]

I had an 87 Mustang GT that would do 160 all day. I put all 120K miles on it on the autobahns of Germany so it spent atleast 60K over 120 and many times closer to 140. I sat at 3600 rpms at 140. 4th gear was the way to go if you really want to go fast The clutch was hell in a traffic jam. No air, mechanical clutch, 4 wheel disks and fairly rough ride. It was my favorite car to drive so far with the exception of the over sensitive steering. It got a little scary after 140 miles per hour. I pick my car up tomorrow and I hope it is as fun as my former beast. That car was really fast for an almost stock car.

 

[will e]

I appreciate both. I have a nice 2008 'sport trac' with a v8, 6 speed tranny, full time 4wd, traction control and ABS. It's quiet on the inside. The factory stereo is nice. The standard 4 wheel disc brakes and front and rear independent suspension all combine for a nice daily driver.

But I never 'smile' driving it. I don't fire it up in the morning on the way to work and think 'this is going to be fun'. With the mustang it's a thrill. Every mile.

I suppose a modern sports car is also fun to drive. Does a daily driving corvette owner smile every time he pulls out of the drive way? Does he look at the drive as an adventure? I like the new challengers and the Camaros. A friend has a special edition Camaro with a super charger and something like 6 forward gears. It's a thrill for sure but, yeah, it's just a little too 'refined'. The traction control makes sure he doesn't spin the wheels, the brakes are ABS. It takes care of you.

 

[luxstang]

Kit, I think you are preaching to the choir here. We all think like you or we probably wouldn't be here in the first place.

I like both, old and new. I like the refinement on modern cars as well as the down to earth, crude behavior of classics.

I drive my 72 a lot, in fact I don't know anyone here in my country who drives his classic more than I do. I put 26000 km (+16000 miles) on it last year, this year I have made 12000 km (7500 miles) and if the weather permits I will add another 3000km. I it wasn't for the winter break and the rained out summers, I would probably not even own a new car, so I guess I know what you mean.

I do have a new VW though and that car is fun to drive in it's own way. I like the quality materials, the quiet ride quality, the extremely high gas mileage ( approx 44 mpg) and whatnot. With these new cars you make no compromises, everything works in your favor and you don't need to put up with bad manners like you would on old cars.

But that is the charm of old cars: the bad manners that give them personality. It doesn't have to be a rumpty-rump cam. In fact my 72 idles so smoothly that I can put a socket extension upright on the air filter and it will not topple over.

I have sophisticated the handling quality of it, so that it can take a beating on our narrow and winding European roads and it corners like it's on rails almost on a par with my VW and Alfa Romeo Giulietta.

But even these features will not ruin the sheer driving pleasure when you fire it up.

It's still a car that will have it's very own way of challenging you. It's like it said "Ok, you can drive me and I'll play along. I'll give you all I have but ask yourself this: Can you take it?"

I'll take a little detour into another field of work to show you that it's not only with cars: I once sold a guitar because it was too good. (A Music Man "Luke" for those in the know).

That guitar was perfect in every way. It was easy to play, versatile, sounded great, was light enough to wear around your neck for hours, stayed perfectly in tune etc etc... but it was too smooth.

For a professional guitar player that thing would have been great but I want to have fun playing. I don't mind the small imperfections of my other guitars, in fact I embrace them because they give them personality. And I like having to get myself into these little imperfections. I know that my vintage Fender Strat has a dead spot somewhere around the 13th fret, so I either play around that or I take it into account that I need to play that note in that spot in a different way. As a pro who needs dependable gear that performs as well as possible this might be an issue, for me it's part of the fun.

It's just the same with cars. If I had to spend all day in my car for my job, I would probably not do that in my Mustang, I'd choose a new car that gives me all the amenities to make me comfortable. In that case it would not be about driving a car, it would be a necessity. I would not be driving for the sake of driving.

Another example: I am not into guns at all but I remember that when I had the opportunity, it was much more fun to shoot a replica of an old front loader Remington with the ritual of pouring in the powder, then stuffing a bullet into the chamber and shoot it all in a huge cloud of smoke than it was shooting a modern gun. But if my life depended on it I'd not mess with it but choose something handy and practical.

So, be it guitars, cars or whatever, I think the keyword here is personality. Even a new car can have a personality. If it does, then I will like for what it is. If it doesn't, it'll leave no impression.

What's the quote from Pulp Fiction? "Personality goes a long way."

Sermon over, the choir is released.

 

[Austin Vert]

Amen Brother Mike! I'll go along with all of that! plus

IMO, bottom line...........

Outdated engineering, but definately fun to drive and killer styling, flair, good looks and personality a plenty!

Greg.

 

[Elizabeth73]

I am also 19 yr old girl, driving around my 73' that was handed down by my step-grandmother. I LOVE driving this car. I drive it almost every day in the summer. It sounds good, looks great, and rides the road like no other car I have driven. Yes, its a bit boaty, but its a big car. I can drive it with one finger or none and it still drives straighter than my friends 2004 Lincoln. Not to mention, it is much easier to work in the engine bay of these cars. There is so much room to put my hands. Modern cars are so compact and full of plugs and wires.

However, I don't know how people lived without heated seats in the winter with these cars, I imagine none came with factory heated seats? I know you can put them in now but I doubt people drive these in the winter (esp in New England).

 

[Kit Sullivan]

I drove mine through several blisteringly cold winters in both Buffalo, NY and Boise, Idaho. Felt like sitting on a solid block of ice!

 

[Mister 4x4]

I've never had a modern sporty or performance car to speak of. The closest thing that anything like that was my wife's '96 Z-24 Cavalier - that thing was a little road rocket, and a total blast to drive.

About the only comparison I can make is one time I went wheelin' with my pal Dave. He had a '96 Toyota V6 extended cab 4x4 he'd just lifted with some 33" Mud Kings, and I was driving my '85 Nissan King Cab 4-cylinder 4x4 that I'd bought used, rebuilt the engine, rebuilt the IFS with new "stock" stuff, and was my daily driver (with his old 31" Mud Rovers). We took turns blowing through a mud hole we'd found and had a ball doing it. First time through, I hit the mud in 4-High, started losing momentum and eventually stopped halfway through - a little bit of water seeped through the door seal on the my side, got bounced around like a beast, and the engine sounded like a banshee because of the 'glass pack exhaust. Then I dropped into 4-Low, got going again, and eventually made it out... did a couple of donuts - had a blast! Dave went through in his Toyota... never got "stuck"... never had to get into 4-Low... brand new tires wouldn't let him do a donut. Then we swapped trucks and did the same thing. I went first in his Toyota, and honestly - I was bored. No leaks... no engine noise to speak of... no bouncing all over the place (the aftermarket suspension soaked up everything)... no drama what so ever. Then it was his turn in the Nissan. He plowed into the mud, was all over the place, didn't get stuck, slung mud everywhere, even got a nice donut going on and climbed out of the hole sideways. When he got out of my truck, he had a big ol' smile on his face and asked to drive it some more during the rest of the day.

My co-worker John has an early Chrysler 300C with the Hemi that he's chipped with a cold air intake, and that thing is very deceptive. It has tons of power and really moves out when he hits the pedal... but there's no real perceived "event" when he does that - just a hint of engine note and pushback into the plush leather seats, and things go whizzing by even faster. Don't get me wrong... it's VERY cool - such power being put-down while remaining so refined. But, I honestly think I'd get de-sensitized to that after awhile. I have a feeling that anytime my Mustang's throttle is prodded, there will be a very pronounced "event," in the way of noise, getting shoved back into the seat, less "dulled and dampened" feelings from the drivetrain, no traction control, etc., which I'm betting will never fail to be exciting. Which is to be expected, of course... and I wouldn't change a thing, either.

 

[1972MustangSVH]

Its good to hear another generation will be able to recall piling into those old cold hard seats that crackled like they were splitting in two as you sat down. Now we need to introduce them to those slick, clear, seat covers with little star shapes or diamonds embossed on them, lol.

 

[73vertproject]

This thread is worthy of being a "sticky" on so many levels. Younger generation Mustang owners that convey their thoughts intelligently and interestingly (I've got some street cred - I'm a high school vice principal and former teacher), as well as awesome posts by many, including 'Cuda and Kit (passages from "Hot Rod" and "Street Rod" by Henry Gregor Felson scrolled through my head as I was reading those posts) deserve to be read by most of our members. And the rest of the responses are simply great stuff guys and gals. ::thumb::