More Electrical/Idle Problems

[Jeff73Mach1]

here is a plug and play headlight harness that uses relays to take the load of your factory harness when using halogen headlights

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/upd-34263

Not saying it will fix your problem, but it will reduce the load on the original wiring and headlight switch. It is also pretty inexpensive. Been running it on my car for years

 

[Fabrice]

I agree with Jeff73Mach1. Adding relays is always good idea with halogens or others drawing more than the originals. (btw I see I've typed amps instead of watts for the bulbs in previous reply ). Meanwhile you should be able to find replacements with low wattage or LED's to test.

 

[Don C]

But wouldn't a bad coil also go bad running off of battery voltage instead of the coil wire?  

Possibly not, depending on where and what the problem is, and how long the coil was run on battery voltage. The coil wire provides a reduced voltage to the primary side, which will also affect the output (secondary) voltsge. The higher primary battery voltage can hide or overcome the breakdown for a longer time, but as the coil continues to degrade it will fail.

 

[Fabrice]

@Don C

Interesting, what actually (can/do) degrade under low voltage?

I know insulation can degrade because of heat(wrong place on an engine) and/or vibrations so that you eventually end having some internal shorts.

When you have too much voltage, usually when wrong/bad spark plugs or wires are used, heat is generated potentially causing the insulation to degrade. You're saying low voltage does eventually lead to similar heat problem?

 

[Don C]

No, I'm just saying that if the problem is heat related, it may be due to some of the windings shorting to each other as it warms up. If this happens on the primary side the secondary side will not generate as much voltage. The voltage generated on the secondary side is a result of the ratio of number of primary windings to the number of secondary windings. When the primary windings start shorting to each other, the ratio goes down. The higher battery voltage somewhat compensates for the reduced ratio. The same thing will happen if the secondary side windings short out, but not be as noticeable.

A simplified illustration would be a pair of windings, the primary having 10 wraps (windings) of wire, and the secondary having 100 wraps of wire, giving a 10 to 100 ratio. If 2 of the primary windings short together you are left with effectively only 9 on the primary side, giving a 9 to 100 ratio, which is a 10% decrease in output. If 2 windings short out on the secondary side the ratio will be 10 to 99, a 1% reduction.

Increasing the voltage on the primary side will overcome the loss and hide the problem until enough of the windings begin shorting to each other.

Loss of the oil or wax that the coil case is filled with is a typical cause of problems.

 

[icejawa]

My ignition coil sounds like its 1/4th full of the oil inside when I shook it. Thats one of the reasons I was going to buy a new one anyways and try to mount it diagonally. As for the headlights I will try out that harness that was linked since I can't seem to find any original type bulbs, everyone sells halogens now. I wish I knew alot more about cars, you guys would probably find the source of the problem within an hour.

 

[Fabrice]

@Don C

Oh I see what you mean now. That the coil could already having one of the case I was describing and current set back to a steady battery 12v vs his previous 8, may restore/compensate... I would have thought it would do pretty much the reverse and actually fry it faster.

@icejawa

Don't be hard on yourself, you are almost there and I believe it was/is not just one issue.

At the rate you are forced to learn the hard way by doing yourself, your gonna make better choices later on, and prevent the kind of situations you are into right now.

 

[midlife]

I wager $10 on the headlight bulbs.

 

[73pony]

I wager $10 on the headlight bulbs.

+1. I put relays on my headlights, made a huge difference. Didn't have that fancy harness that Jeff posted though. Made it myself.

 

[Don C]

It will begin to fry it faster, as more windings short to each other, lowering the resistance, increasing the current (and watts), raising the temperature, shorting out more windings.....

The primary reason for the oil in oil filled coils is to conduct heat from the windings to the case, providing some measure of cooling. So icejawa is on the right track, already having decided to replace it.

 

[icejawa]

Yep I am going to have to buy that special sexy headlight harness. I got the new coil in there today and it starts on 1st crank now which is sweet. Actually now when I turn the headlights on the passenger side is bright as hell and the drivers side is dim and slowly lights up. I used the hazards just for the hell of it and those also cause a pattern of near-stalling drain. I'll order that harness right now.

 

[Don C]

If you're going to add a relay(s) for headlights or other underhood components something like this can help make a clean looking installation with extra fuses for other accessories.

https://www.amazon.com/MagiDeal-Universal-Truck-Audio-Holder/dp/B0756667LB/ref=sr_1_21?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1523573940&sr=1-21&keywords=fuse+relay+box

 

[icejawa]

If you're going to add a relay(s) for headlights or other underhood components something like this can help make a clean looking installation with extra fuses for other accessories.

https://www.amazon.com/MagiDeal-Universal-Truck-Audio-Holder/dp/B0756667LB/ref=sr_1_21?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1523573940&sr=1-21&keywords=fuse+relay+box

Will this harness and relays fix the drainage coming from the hazards as well?

 

[73pony]

It is likely that the hazards are causing the condition to be worse due to the draw from headlights on the system and not the actual cause. Have you tried the hazards with the headlights off?

 

[Don C]

It's not that your hazards are drawing your voltage down, you likely have a corroded connection(s), or a bad homemade connection, that are a high resistance point that is effectively blocking the flow of electricity. Check the wires that are connected to the positive battery cable at the solenoid, or the junction block if you have gauges, for bad connectors or wires that look like the insulation has melted.

You can turn your headlights and flashers on for a few minutes and then feel along the wires and connectors for warm spots, which indicate a bad connection or wire.

 

[icejawa]

I'll be putting that relay harness in tonight and I will check all the wires through the car. I ordered a new set of repro battery cables and a repro starter solenoid as well just for the hell of it. I think I might just replace all the electrical components in the car because whoever restored this car before I had it did not bother to redo the wiring.

 

[icejawa]

Welp I have that harness in and of course it works great. I can use the headlights but the hazards and brake lights still cause a stall. I looked at the headlight harness and it looks pretty crispy and old, which is weird because I could've sworn I had it redone by midlife. Maybe I just sent the dash harness to him back then. I did find the remains of some random 90 degree connector with a yellow wire sitting in the battery tray. I should just ask midlife to do the headlight harness, and order a new alternator harness. That would complete all the wiring throughout the car to a fresh condition. The learning experience is priceless though, and for all these parts there's my mastercard...

 

[midlife]

I did do your headlight harness, actually, I had to replace it. Shipped out on Aug. 26 2017. If you find it to be bad, pull it and let me see what I can do. Shipping to me will be on my nickel. I don't think it is my wiring, though.

Does the engine stall with no headlights on and brake lights on? What happens when you pull the headlight switch out one detent (no headlights but running lights)?

Does the engine stall with hazards and no brake lights on? Does the headlights have to be on when you use the hazards to get the engine to stall?

Yours is a very strange situation, as the ignition signal is unrelated to headlights, flashers, etc., except through the main battery line. Headlights, flashers, etc., are a good drain on battery voltage, which means the voltage available to the coil gets reduced accordingly. Halogen headlights are notorious for excessive current draw.

A band-aide fix is to use the coil signal as a relay input for battery power to the coil.

Just out of curiosity, remind us again of what you are using for ignition: stock system with points, MSD, Mallory, Petronix, etc.?

 

[icejawa]

I did do your headlight harness, actually, I had to replace it.  Shipped out on Aug. 26 2017.  If you find it to be bad, pull it and let me see what I can do.  Shipping to me will be on my nickel.  I don't think it is my wiring, though.

Does the engine stall with no headlights on and brake lights on?  What happens when you pull the headlight switch out one detent (no headlights but running lights)?

Does the engine stall with hazards and no brake lights on?  Does the headlights have to be on when you use the hazards to get the engine to stall?

Yours is a very strange situation, as the ignition signal is unrelated to headlights, flashers, etc., except through the main battery line.  Headlights, flashers, etc., are a good drain on battery voltage, which means the voltage available to the coil gets reduced accordingly.  Halogen headlights are notorious for excessive current draw.

A band-aide fix is to use the coil signal as a relay input for battery power to the coil.  

Just out of curiosity, remind us again of what you are using for ignition: stock system with points, MSD, Mallory, Petronix, etc.?

The engine doesn't stall or surge at all if I brake with the lights all off. If I pull the switch out one notch it just hiccups a split second (sport lamps I think). The engine stalls with the hazards on by themselves. When I turn the headlights on even with this new relay harness I've installed, it still makes the ALT needle jump at the same time. Could my alternator be bad? My new fully charged battery dropped to 25% charge during the last 2 recharges but it may just be all the cranking I've been doing.

My ignition system is all stock besides the MSD distributor and MSD Blaster coil and plug wires.

This is a very confusing issue to chase.

EDIT: If I give the car gas and turn the hazards on it will surge in unison with the flash pattern

 

[tony-muscle]

Did anyone suggest checking the alternator? It seems that the alternator cant keep up so it may be deficient.

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