Pulling the trigger on my 351C rebuild

[Steve McMahan]

My second favorite car of all time was my 70 Cyclone Spoiler that had a 4v 351 that hauled a$$. I understand the desire to keep it whole.

 

[70cobrascj]

I do not have staggered shocks. Here's a run-down of the underside of mine (driver side rear shock is not in the car as I had just reinstalled the rear axle from being refurbished).
View attachment 71010
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I don’t see where this system would interfere with the staggered shock. It seems to tuck in real close to the center. Hard to tell without the shock there.
Thanks

 

[70cobrascj]

My second favorite car of all time was my 70 Cyclone Spoiler that had a 4v 351 that hauled a$$. I understand the desire to keep it whole.

I believe a 70 Cyclone spoiler came standard with a 429CJ. But 71 it came standard with the 351

 

[Steve McMahan]

You’re right, it was a 71. I’m almost that old!

 

[PeteG41]

Well as luck would have it, the owner of The Mustang Shop in Mesa, AZ has built plenty of 351C's. I said I was looking in the neighborhood of 400HP, which is more than plenty for me. He said the key is an upgraded rotating assembly, so going with a 393 stroker kit, direct ordered from scat. I am also going to have the FMX rebuilt/upgraded there as well. When I was limping it down the road to the shop, about 1/2 mile (before I knew the real engine issues), she was slipping. Could have been low T fluid, front shaft seal has a nice leak, but since I don't know the condition of it and based on the motor health, the smart thing I believe is that it could use it. Going to have to set aside 8-10k, which I kind of figured in the back of my mind. And since my HOA already got upset with me working on it in my carport, that includes removal and install.

 

[basstrix]

Sounds like a good plan. I will be building a 393 stroker for mine in the future. I suggest you consider a 1-piece rear main seal. I understand that the aftermarket cranks tend to leak at the rear main and the 1-piece seal is the cure. It's a simple mod to the block...the same machine used to bore the cylinders is used to bore the rear of the block.

If your block is already .030 over, you should consider obtaining a standard bore block as a starting point. Sleeving a block is expensive. Also, be sure the builder hones the block with a torque plate (aka deck plate). I've measured cleveland cylinders with and without a deck plate and the amount of movement is substantial....and the thinner the cylinder walls, the worse will be the distortion.

 

[73inNH]

Well as luck would have it, the owner of The Mustang Shop in Mesa, AZ has built plenty of 351C's. I said I was looking in the neighborhood of 400HP, which is more than plenty for me. He said the key is an upgraded rotating assembly, so going with a 393 stroker kit, direct ordered from scat. I am also going to have the FMX rebuilt/upgraded there as well. When I was limping it down the road to the shop, about 1/2 mile (before I knew the real engine issues), she was slipping. Could have been low T fluid, front shaft seal has a nice leak, but since I don't know the condition of it and based on the motor health, the smart thing I believe is that it could use it. Going to have to set aside 8-10k, which I kind of figured in the back of my mind. And since my HOA already got upset with me working on it in my carport, that includes removal and install.

Others much smarter than myself will chime in, and maybe correct me, but I don't think you need to stroke a 351c to make 400HP.

I think headwork and cam will get you there.

Again, I'll defer to the pros to chime in (for my benefit, too).

 

[basstrix]

Here's a recipe for 450hp using iron 4v cc heads.

 

[Ron Tanzi]

The stock crank and rods are pretty good. If they check out OK I would use them. I had my rod bolts replaced with ARP bolts and resized the big ends. The crank was ground .10 undersize to clean up the journals and everything was balanced The connecting rod cap bolt retaining nuts were a problem on Clevelands because they would crack. If you get a crank and rod kit it is 99% certain it is made overseas and for me that is a turnoff. I am not a big fan of stroking engines but that is just me. I have my reasons. I agree with 73inNH in that the 351 will make 400hp without being stroked.

Ron

 

[PeteG41]

The stock crank and rods are pretty good. If they check out OK I would use them. I had my rod bolts replaced with ARP bolts and resized the big ends. The crank was ground .10 undersize to clean up the journals and everything was balanced The connecting rod cap bolt retaining nuts were a problem on Clevelands because they would crack. If you get a crank and rod kit it is 99% certain it is made overseas and for me that is a turnoff. I am not a big fan of stroking engines but that is just me. I have my reasons. I agree with 73inNH in that the 351 will make 400hp without being stroked.

Ron

Okay much appreciated! I am more than fine with not going with the stroker kit, and just having everything machined and resurfaced. New cam, pistons, rockers etc. That would also probably save me a couple thousand. Should I try to purchase some 4v heads, or will the 2v that I already have suffice? As far as the crank, would it be cheaper in the long run to buy a reman one, or pay to have mine ground?

 

[PeteG41]

Others much smarter than myself will chime in, and maybe correct me, but I don't think you need to stroke a 351c to make 400HP.

I think headwork and cam will get you there.

Again, I'll defer to the pros to chime in (for my benefit, too).

I am ALL ears for people that know more than me in this department. Any department for that matter but when it comes to technicals like this I am clueless. Head work, cam, pistons, and rockers?

 

[Mister 4x4]

While I don't have actual dyno numbers to back it up, my engine's recipe in an earlier post should be good for 400HP, according to the CamQuest app I used to select the cam. And since I'm not at work stuck behind the Air Force's firewall, here's a video of what it sounds like my buddy Dave took to share with his friend.

And that's using the factory 2V heads, BTW.

http://www.mister4x4.net/cars/Mach_1/Frankenstang_20180928.mp4?_=1

 

[PeteG41]

While I don't have actual dyno numbers to back it up, my engine's recipe in an earlier post should be good for 400HP, according to the CamQuest app I used to select the cam. And since I'm not at work stuck behind the Air Force's firewall, here's a video of what it sounds like my buddy Dave took to share with his friend.

And that's using the factory 2V heads, BTW.

http://www.mister4x4.net/cars/Mach_1/Frankenstang_20180928.mp4?_=1

That sounds unreal. The more I think about it the more I am mostly likely going to email that shop back and bang the stroker idea. Put the extra cost that would have been into headers and getting the rest of the exhaust done. I’ll be having to do tires at the same time, or that test drive afterwards won’t happen

 

[Ron Tanzi]

Okay much appreciated! I am more than fine with not going with the stroker kit, and just having everything machined and resurfaced. New cam, pistons, rockers etc. That would also probably save me a couple thousand. Should I try to purchase some 4v heads, or will the 2v that I already have suffice? As far as the crank, would it be cheaper in the long run to buy a reman one, or pay to have mine ground?

If the crank passes a magnaflux I would use it. As I said the stock crankshafts are very good. I have 2V heads, the ports on the 2V heads are big compared to many other heads in the V-8 automotive World. I would have liked to have closed chamber 2v Australian heads. That ship has sailed on me at this point. The aluminum head options for Clevelands are insanely expensive compared to just about every other V-8 head on the planet. A lot of guys on the forum have built their engines with open chamber 2V heads. They may chime in Re: their experiences and how much power they achieved.

Ron

 

[Cleveland Crush]

Hi PeteG41
Rest assured the factory 351 Clevelands will handle 400 HP with one hand tied behind their back all day long. Don't know why in the world your engine guy said you need a stroker at that power level. As stated by others get new ARP rod bolts and get things mag. inspected. Valve train upgrade is in order also.

 

[Hemikiller]

Others much smarter than myself will chime in, and maybe correct me, but I don't think you need to stroke a 351c to make 400HP.

I think headwork and cam will get you there.

Again, I'll defer to the pros to chime in (for my benefit, too).

No, you really don't.

Cam, intake and headers (in as simple terms as possible) will get you there easily, and still have excellent driveability. If I were to purchase a stroker kit, I'd get it from Track Boss products. Tim Meyer lives and breathes 335 series engines. I trust him far more than a kit from Scat.

https://www.tmeyerinc.com/
My first iteration of the current 351C made 414hp @ 6200, with 380+ ft/lbs. That was with a small solid flat tappet (230/235 @ .050 - .555/.555 lift)

This is an open chamber stock stroke 4V head build from one of the 351C groups on FB. Super flat torque curve running at 400+ ft/lbs. THAT, would be a fund driver.

 

[Cleveland Crush]

Agreed. That is an impressive flat tourqe curve!!!

 

[PeteG41]

Hi PeteG41
Rest assured the factory 351 Clevelands will handle 400 HP with one hand tied behind their back all day long. Don't know why in the world your engine guy said you need a stroker at that power level. As stated by others get new ARP rod bolts and get things mag. inspected. Valve train upgrade is in order also.

I’m going to stop by the shop tomorrow and talk to him to nail down a plan. Or if I get an odd vibe then I’ll start looking elsewhere. It’s only about 6 miles away. The heads definitely need to be machined, so new valves and springs will be done at the same time. Labor/cost wise is it best to get the crank turned, or just get a factory refurbished one? I’ve heard different options on that.

 

[Sheriff41]

I’m going to stop by the shop tomorrow and talk to him to nail down a plan. Or if I get an odd vibe then I’ll start looking elsewhere. It’s only about 6 miles away. The heads definitely need to be machined, so new valves and springs will be done at the same time. Labor/cost wise is it best to get the crank turned, or just get a factory refurbished one? I’ve heard different options on that.

It's a good idea to get to know your machinist. Also, check with the local car clubs for recommendations. There used to be a big cruise in event in the East Valley that would be a good place to meet gearheads and ask about machine shops. Just take any word-of-mouth advice with a grain of salt. See if any shops' names keep coming up as standouts. Oh, take a notepad and write the names of these shops down. Easier than trying to recall them later!

If you're a military vet Ferrea Racing offers a really nice discount on their valves and associated components. Be sure the valve springs match your camshaft.

The crank will need to be checked by your machinist. If it needs turning and can be done without going too far under, then have it done. No need to replace it in this case.

Also, if you're going for a mild performance rebuild and having your trans rebuilt, be sure to match the converter's stall to your cam and rear gears. Lots of info on this can be found on performance transmission company websites. Doing this will help you have a complete powertrain/driveline that works together.

 

[Cleveland Crush]

I’m going to stop by the shop tomorrow and talk to him to nail down a plan. Or if I get an odd vibe then I’ll start looking elsewhere. It’s only about 6 miles away. The heads definitely need to be machined, so new valves and springs will be done at the same time. Labor/cost wise is it best to get the crank turned, or just get a factory refurbished one? I’ve heard different options on that.

Pete,
An inspected factory cast (nodular or not) Cleveland crank can handle lots of power, hopefully you will not even need it turned down. As to keep the original or go factory refurbished...? Try to stay with the original crank if possible. As Sheriff stated: Get to know your machinist; make him your best buddy!