Small block or big block?

[cazsper]

A previous car if mine was a '95 GT that I swapped the 5.0L for a mild 393w and a Vortech supercharger. With a moderate cam, moderate boost, and low compression, I easily had 550hp to the rear wheels.

When it comes to my '73 Mach-1, I am torn between a built small block (currently a 4v Cleveland) or a big block (probably some variation of a 460). Seeing that I have no intention of tracking the car and am purely looking for a street car, would it be better to go with a big block or the small block?

I want it reliable for everyday use, run on 91 octane, with a little lope (camshaft), and have plenty of power to get out of its own way without having to wind the snot out of it.

I was initially thinking a 351c (or a 393/408) with a healthy cam and an Air Gap intake. But I'm also thinking of a 460 based motor. Either way, I will be using a TKO-600 or a T-56.

Thanks everyone.

Mike

 

[matrixx]

I don't know much about big blocks, but when i do it's a ford 460!

HA honestly I have debated this myself and come to the conclusion that the money I would put into another engine and fabricating its simpler to just build what worked from the factory, on a street driven car i believe will be a much less hassle.

 

[Don65Stang]

I have no expieance with the big block maybe BT or others will weigh in. However, add the following info into your decision. For a street car you also need some handling capability. The 351c weighs less than the big block so that is a plus for the handling. For a straight line drag strip car I'd definately go big.

 

[Totalled]

Low compression '73 4V? Twin turbo.

I decided to swap heads, cam it, and spin it for now. We'll see what the future holds. I always wanted to big block it, but decided on an all around car instead of just a drag machine.

 

[hyena429]

apples and oranges too me...but i do like the idea of a cleveland...Lighter but able to reach big block HP numbers with out too much trouble...I use to want a big block too and planned to dump my 4v cleveland for a 429 or 460....Till i realized how good my cleveland 4v could be with little mods....I would like to see some one putting a 390 hi po.. or 427 side oiler in one..lol

 

[TommyK]

The best bang for the buck that fits your criteria is the 460.

 

[auron73mach1]

I have yet to assemble it yet but I have a 460 bored .030 over and a t56 magnum I still need to rebuild my rear end into a 4.30:1, auto locked, 31 spline beast and the pro fit kit from american power train and mine is going to be a daily driver.

 

[nosdelacruz]

Build a Cleve, have the torque of a big block and the rpms of a small block. That's why I decided to stay with the 351 rather than swapping it with the 429 I have.

 

[T-Tom]

I have no experience with the big block maybe BT or others will weigh in. However, add the following info into your decision. For a street car you also need some handling capability. The 351c weighs less than the big block so that is a plus for the handling. For a straight line drag strip car I'd definitely go big.

+1

 

[1FM05]

Go big block 460. They are cheap, plentiful and a plethera of after market parts. Cost wise you can build it just as cheap or cheaper and be ahead. If it is for street use mainly, then all the more to go big block. Torque is what you want and you can't beat a big block when it comes to that. With our cars its a bolt in either way. Good luck.

 

[wwhite72]

these guys claim +500lbs torque from a 351 stroker but sounds too aggressive, and they used a 4.00 stroke. http://www.tuffdawgengines.com/ford_408C_516hp.htm also George Reid publishes info on strokers http://www.mre-books.com/biginch/biginch5.html that being said the Interceptor 460 was used in state trooper cars for years and that says a lot about the reliability and performance of that version of the 460.

 

[droptop73]

The car's balance is much better with a Cleveland and even better with a Windsor. Most estimates of a specific engine's power are way overblown. 300 to 350 horsepower will produce a pretty spirited pony with a 5 speed and a reasonable (3.25 ish) gear. No need to go overboard unless you want an all out racecar. Just my opinion, for what it's worth.

 

[wwhite72]

i'd like to do a '71 351c coupe with fiberglass fenders, hood, trunk lid, and pull the rear seat and heater parts out completely. With all the aluminum you can put in the front and a T56 w/alum drive shaft i bet i could get it down around 2900lbs with an easy 450HP. That would be quite a ratio!

 

[Finmach]

Guys, lots of good points sbf vs bbf. I tried not to wrote, but here we go... Did you know that Ford 460 cid engine weights the same than stock 2V 351c when the 460 is assembled with aluminium heads, aluminium intake and aluminium waterpump. At that point you cannot use the handling point to overlook the 460 cid. So if you say that the aluminum headed&intake&waterpump 460 cid handling is poor then the stock 351c 2V handling is poor also. If the stock 351c 2V Mach is equipped with the iron case FMX the situation might have flipped in advance for 460 cid.

Ofcourse you can equip then 351c with aluminium heads etc, but then the idea of the Cleveland is lost somehow, the greatness of 351c are the huge iron heads IMO. Using the aluminium heads, intake, waterpump makes the 351c obviusly lighter than it's big brother. Don't get me wrong, I like the 351c, as I like the 351w, 289's, 302's, FE:s, Y-blocks, flatheads...

My personal choice would be 429/460 as a standard trim or stroked. A very good friend of mine has a 460 cid with stock stroke 3.850 and stock bore 4.360", with hydraulic flattappet cam it screams to 7000 rpm and gives 535 lb-ft of torque - that with none so ever exotic parts, not so expensive too. My "chief mechanic" has a '61 Galaxie with 429 with the stock stroke of 3.590", it revs to 7500 rpm without a hesitation and it pulls the 2.1 ton (4600 lbs) Ford like grazy from the idle to the top rpm. I wouldn't try that with 302 cid with 500 hp - Cleveland maybe, but to the lighter body though!!!

Anyway, what ever you chooce to do or what engine to use I preciate it as long as you keep in Ford engines! :heart:

 

[cazsper]

I do appreciate everyone's input. I initially mentioned the 500 RWHP from my other car just as a reference that I had a lot of streetable power on tap. I'm certainly not looking for an all out "race car", however, I would like it to handle as well as it can. One of my questions was "how would an aluminum headed/intake 460 compare to an iron headed 4v Cleveland?" but that has been addressed.

I currently have a 4v Cleveland in the car but in storage, I have a 460 block and an Edelbrock Torker intake manifold. Maybe a little much for a 460 but I'm thinking it might work pretty well for a mild 460 stroker.

 

[wwhite72]

Finmach on the point of weight i saw a posting here just last week that said the 351c and the 460 are not the same weight from the factory. I believe it was a little over 100 lbs difference in favor of the Cleveland. BUT, they are very close so i see your point. Any of the canted valve Ford engines are stellar performers imo, and i have commented today that the 429/460 is an impressive design. But i tend more towards the 351c because there are a few aspects that make them superior. Not the least of which is the factory nodular steel crankshaft. Adding other alum parts and i believe the 351 sheds pounds faster. Clearly the 429/460 will shred tires and impress cubic inch fans today. But when pressed i believe the Cleveland is the superior performer if a power to weight ratio is considered, provided you are willing to spin +6k rpm. And possibly a cost advantage! You say big block and the prices skyrocket. If you go for the Kaase alum block BOSS 429...then you have all the best engineering of 50yrs of racing experience and metallurgy research...and a bill of $30,000.00 just to have it show up on your doorstep sans induction. But it does exist. Then the only question is why does Kaase use the 400M engine when he competes at Engine Masters?

 

[Finmach]

wwhite, Superior is a very strong word. I woudn’t say superior but lighter package if done with aluminium parts.

EMC has rules. For the rules CHI headed windsor’s has been unbeatable. It suits for the rules. It is commonly know fact that the smaller engines makes more hp per cid. Think it from this side, so your engine makes great 1,5 hp per cid, from 351 cid it produces 526 hp. If your 460 cid makes a lousy 1,4 hp per cid it produces 644 hp. That’s the diffrence, 118 hp diffrence. In EMC the rules favores the smaller engines, not the big ones, did you knew, that EMC told Kaase not to attend anymore with CHI headed windsors??? Yes they did. What Kaase did? His response was a +1000 hp Boss engine, he made best horsepower but ofcourse he did not won due to rules. Still he proved his point. So if the better hp & cid ratio is your thing, then do go for the smaller engine. But if you see the whole picture and the hp that counts, then make your choice wisely.

Bad priced? Jon Kaase is the top dog on 460 series engines, there are no Eagle parts used, they are the best top parts like Oliver, Bryant an so on. If you're loaded, Kaase is the best choice, you get what you pay for. Hmmm, take a look at this. That’s a 10 grand 775 hp 460 stroker, if that’s expensive, I would like to see 351c, 351w, 302 or anything to do naturally aspirated 775 hp under 10 grand.

http://www.popularhotrodding.com/tech/0906phr_big_block_ford_engine/viewall.html

Ok, factory nodular iron crank? Stock 429 passenger engines crank has been taken to 1731 hp without a crack – so are you going to build a racecar? Ok, do the math, 351c spinning 7000 rpm = what is the hp potential? 429 spinning 7000 rpm = whats the hp potential.

For the cazsper, torker is not too much for 460 cid, I would say that its probably straining the engine. Torker II is commonly used on stroker engines on AC Cobras, it’ll support 460 cid nicely. 460 is a torque monster, you don’t need dualplane on our weight vehicles like ’71-’73 Mustangs are.

 

[wwhite72]

nice article. but...A block for $50 bucks? and those guys run a machine shop. For real people the costs might be just a tad bit higher. Yes the 460 build is great. i said that. The Cleveland can be done for less and will weigh a little less. It's all good. I dont drive much over 80mph on the highway. all i have in my vert are lap belts.

 

[MotoArts]

Took the Tiger to its first cruise/show today.

There was a '73 Mach w/ 429 auto there, looked stock with all iron manifolds but had Motorsport tall valve covers.

So I stared at it for a good while, hoping for inspiration to plop the already completed 460 in my '71's engine bay and finally get the party started.

Now, I've never been more undecided.

Even with removal of said rocker covers and exhaust manifolds affording max service room, that sucka sure is tight to do anything aside from changing the air filter element.

I could just envision the amount of impromptu swear words that I would come up with if it needed a plug or wire change.

I dunno, man.

I have this complete, ready to fire, cammed 460, a semi fresh 466 D9 shortblock (for backup), and a pair of big bell C6's. Beside them lay several other 5.0/5.8/351C's with enough combo choices to make my head spin (part of my problem). Nitrous, AOD's, GT40X aluminums, 3 rear gear sets... you get the picture.

I have wanted a big block car since Dad had his '70-1/2 Falcon 429SCJ from when it was new.

Still do.

BUT... the serviceability and (expected) driveability of a roller smallblock for a driver is really, REALLY pulling me away from my own big block dream.

Sigh.