Small block or big block?

[Finmach]

I'm not going to argue which of the engines is the best or where from to get the parts cheap, but I would still like to know that how the 351c is much cheaper? Lighter it'll be with aluminium parts, but how it can be done so cheap?

Tall 429/460 covers are 4 1/2" tall, they are tall suckers for sure. There's also on option like B&T competition valvecovers, they are shaped like ol' FE's - looks better than the Ford Racing bathtubs plus they aren't so tall. Changing the spark plugs 460 cid with tall ford racing covers takes a 45 minutes to an hour or so. Adjusting valve slash can be done easily if you're using other than the tall Ford Racing covers, since removing the nuts from the brakebooster side is tight due the tallness. It's the matter of what you're used to. I use to wrench my friends '65 mustang with 351c, I can tell you that it was tight as it can get. '71-'73 has a generous enginebay and notches in shocktowers ready to mount 429 Boss, I cannot complain. Afterall its what you want, you want the cleveland then you need the cleveland. You can allways change the combo, try 351c, try 5.0 coyote, try 460 cid, try blown 289, you can allways change the combo. Get nitrous for the 302. Get nitrous for the 460 cid.

Best advice for MotoArts is to get yourself as a passenger in a loaded 351c car, then get yourself to a loaded big block car. Try to get as many cars as you can no matter of the brand, get in blower cars, procharger cars, turbo cars, nitrous cars... From there you can find the powerlevel you like, or the manners you wish. When you find the car that attracts you the most and the bang for the buck is lined up, then start planning a similar powertrain. Thats my 2 cents.

 

[wwhite72]

One way that a 351c is cheap is that it's ALREADY IN THE CAR. The Boss 429 will not drop in a 71-73. A CJ is a drop in. a 1965 mustang with a 351 Cleveland engine installed? I have never seen that before. also, what are the registration and annual and fuel taxes on a 460 c.i. vehicle in Finland?

 

[Finmach]

One way that a 351c is cheap is that it's ALREADY IN THE CAR. The Boss 429 will not drop in a 71-73. A CJ is a drop in. a 1965 mustang with a 351 Cleveland engine installed? I have never seen that before. also, what are the registration and annual and fuel taxes on a 460 c.i. vehicle in Finland?

Ok! Already in a car!! Then I got it 

But the rest of your comments are only opinions wwhite72. You’re assuming, because if you had tried it, you wouldn't argue.

I am not bullshitting you on the Boss 429. If you haven’t tried it by yourself, then you don’t know. I gotta ask you first, that do you really think that the OEM FACTORY NOTHCHES IN SHOCKTOWERS OF ’71-’72-’73 Mustangs happens to be there on coincidence or by accident? They aren’t there for sparkplug clearance or for routing there power steering lines. Ford had the Boss 429 on their mind when the ’71 Mustang was on drawing table. Ford was paying huge dollars to Kar Kraft to make the Boss 429 to fit in ’69-’70 Mustangs, every sold ’69-’70 Boss made loss for Ford but they accepted it to get the Boss 429 homologated for Nascar Racing. For the 1971 Ford wanted to stop the leak of money for Kar Kraft, so the dimension of Boss were taken to the drawing table of 1971 Mustang. Only bummer was that Ford cut the Racing budget for 85 % for the year 1970, that stopped all the development f.ex. King Cobra, Boss 429 etc, so Ford’s intrest to “waste” money for the nascar program ended, that killed the 1971 Boss 429 Mustang – unfortunately for us ’71-’73 guys.

How I know that the Boss 429 fits between the stock shocktowers? We have installed one here at Finland in late 80’s for a 1971 Mach 1, ITS GOT UNTOUCHED SHOCKTOWERS, 499 cid Boss 429 went in without touching the shocktowers. Seeing is believing in this case. If you don’t want to believe me, please do visit Jon Kaase Racing engines facebook profile. You’ll find from there few pictures from the 1971 Mach 1 Mustang of his client. There is BOSS 429 INSTALLED BETWEEN UNMODIFIED SHOCKTOWERS OF 1971 MACH 1 MUSTANG. This is not so bad news afterall? Best part, you all have those magic shocktowers!!! Go on and measure the width of enginebay between the notches, Boss 429 is 29” wide from edge’s of the valvecovers it depends though from the source, but the last 598 cid stroked Boss 429 I measured was that app. 29” with 10.300” deck height block. No less the headers for the Boss 429 are easier to make than for the 429 CJ/SCJ, since the exhaust ports of Boss 429 are pointing almost directly downwards. 429 CJ exhausports are much more horizontal than the Boss 429. Primary tubes are easier to route in Boss 429, Ford Power Train Aplications makes a 1 5/8” headers and they can support up to 800 hp, so even the big primaries aren’t a must if unless you wan’t more.

Now if you still refuse to accept it, then I can’t force you to believe it but if you haven’t tried it by yourself, then please don’t say it won’t fit because IMO that’s arrogant.

Now gee, 351c will fit in to unmodified engine compartment of ’65-’66 Mustang. Have you tried one? Cleveland was not of course an OEM engine for ’64 ½ - ’66 Mustangs since it didn’t exist at the day, but there were several installed here in Finland. My ol’ 351 4V HO engine went to ’66 Mustang in 2006. Headers are a real pain in a butt, but doable. So I gotta ask that based on what experience you are giving an impression that it won’t fit? I haven’t seen a nuclearbomb but I still know they do exist.

I though that Cazsper is living in US, but if you insist to know the Finnish taxes etc… There are no difference between insurance or in other gov. annual taxes etc. Newer vehicles are paid by the emissions, these ol’ iron are paid by their weight. Since my hack is the same weight with the 460 cid than the stock 351c Mach, the payment is the same. But if there would be a 100 lbs difference, it would be close to 30 bucks annually difference.

Now, when you have questioned my knowledge with your opinions, so how many BB Mustangs have you built or can you share us that how do you back up your statements??

One drawback I can see when going with 429 CJ engines if the big 2 1/8" primaries are wanted, the 1-2 and 5-6 primaries goes under the lower control arms and it makes the groundclearence an issue if you want to slam the car. But if you are willing to use FPT headers they work like a charm and they'll leave maximum groundclearence with no issues at all based on my friends 514 cid Mustang with FPT CJ flanged shorties.

Now I rest my case, I've tried to share my information and experiences, sorry if I sounded rude in anyway, but these are the intresting things from '71-'73 ponies I have bumped in during the years. I do share a passion for the Boss 429 engines and my other project consists of building a one - one healthy one.

 

[matrixx]

I had a 65 Coupe, and I never tried to fit a 351c in the bay but i can tell you i would not want to try it. Even the 351w was a shoehorn to put into those without taking a hammer to the shock towers. I know people used the MustangII setup on the 64-66 and fit whatever they could find but it's not much room with the shock towers in the early stangs. Maybe because in the states the cars are more plentiful and people didn't care enough and just wacked out the shock towers for the 351 to have more room, i dunno. But all I have ever "heard" is that they wont fit without modding the towers.

 

[auron73mach1]

71-73 is an all new beast, measure the 64-66 width between shock towers and our 71-73. I helped my kennel master with his 66 with a 351w swapped in and his is tight, but our cars will accept a big block no problem

 

[cazsper]

Well I do appreciate everyone posting their opinions and experiences. I never considered "fitment" as an issue considering that you could get a big block in a '67-'68. I just figured the '71-'73's were even bigger that that.

One of the reasons I am considering the 460 based motor, I figured a bigger motor = more power without having to necessarily having a crazy combination. A bigger motor will tame an otherwise radical came on a smaller motor, right?

Since I would consider a stroked Cleveland, all I would be able to use from my existing 4v Cleveland is the block and heads. For a 460 based motor, I have an intake and a block, so I would pretty much have to purchase the same parts for either build. And because I want to convert to a 5-speed, the fact that I already have a C-6 doesn't matter either. I guess the main factor to consider is what build would cost more. The 393/408 Cleveland or a 500/520 (460). Or am I missing something?

Thanks again everyone..

 

[Finmach]

Well I do appreciate everyone posting their opinions and experiences. I never considered "fitment" as an issue considering that you could get a big block in a '67-'68. I just figured the '71-'73's were even bigger that that.

One of the reasons I am considering the 460 based motor, I figured a bigger motor = more power without having to necessarily having a crazy combination. A bigger motor will tame an otherwise radical came on a smaller motor, right?

Correct Sir.

Since I would consider a stroked Cleveland, all I would be able to use from my existing 4v Cleveland is the block and heads. For a 460 based motor, I have an intake and a block, so I would pretty much have to purchase the same parts for either build. And because I want to convert to a 5-speed, the fact that I already have a C-6 doesn't matter either. I guess the main factor to consider is what build would cost more. The 393/408 Cleveland or a 500/520 (460). Or am I missing something?

Thanks again everyone.

Good thinking.

 

[TommyK]

Took the Tiger to its first cruise/show today.

There was a '73 Mach w/ 429 auto there, looked stock with all iron manifolds but had Motorsport tall valve covers.

So I stared at it for a good while, hoping for inspiration to plop the already completed 460 in my '71's engine bay and finally get the party started.

Now, I've never been more undecided.

Even with removal of said rocker covers and exhaust manifolds affording max service room, that sucka sure is tight to do anything aside from changing the air filter element.

I could just envision the amount of impromptu swear words that I would come up with if it needed a plug or wire change.

I dunno, man.

I have this complete, ready to fire, cammed 460, a semi fresh 466 D9 shortblock (for backup), and a pair of big bell C6's. Beside them lay several other 5.0/5.8/351C's with enough combo choices to make my head spin (part of my problem). Nitrous, AOD's, GT40X aluminums, 3 rear gear sets... you get the picture.

I have wanted a big block car since Dad had his '70-1/2 Falcon 429SCJ from when it was new.

Still do.

BUT... the serviceability and (expected) driveability of a roller smallblock for a driver is really, REALLY pulling me away from my own big block dream.

Sigh.

The plugs are easy to get at. I can have both side out in fifteen minutes. Even the header bolts aren't that bad. The only fastener that gives me trouble is the valve cover bolt in the bottom right corner on the driver's side under the master cylinder and that is only because I am running tall motorsports valve covers. If I used a stock style cover it wouldn't be an issue.

Have you ever tried changing plugs on an AWD Chrysler minivan? Now that's a PITA.

Come to the dark side.

 

[hyena429]

http://www.7173mustangs.com/thread-the-amazing-351c-4v Read this..Good artical on 351c power....I dont think you will have a lack of power with either motor you go for... long as it is built to what you want or need.,,Motor was made to beat hemi big blocks in nascar with less cubes at same rpm same hp....Plus 100 pounds Lighter...and same cam lift...Very advanced motor for its time...Dont think its a slouch by any reason or any less streetable...I drove a 4v cleveland all my driving life on the road for 18 years...She was my first car out of high school...And never had a issue with it runing odd in town or being hard to control.

 

[wwhite72]

Ease up on the starbucks there pal. 1- i posted that a BOSS is not a drop in. I will indeed look for the Kaase story on fitting his motor in a 71. Will be interesting im sure. We know that the CJ is a drop in of course. 2- all i said was that i had never seen a Cleveland in a '65 pony car. I double checked above. Yup, thats what it says. And finally i asked about the Fin taxes only out of curiosity; friends in Ireland tell me that taxes are based on C.I. And that my car would be hugely taxed over there. That is why American Muscle is so rare in his country. Glad to hear your country doesnt tax in the same way. So, its been fun reading your posts. Take it easy.

 

[cazsper]

So, if I were to go the 460 route, will I have issues getting to the spark plugs?

 

[cobra3073]

For many years, I ran a fully built Cleveland in "Fire" (my '73 Mach 1). Most of my competition were big block Chevys and Mopars. I was running an Erson 7900RPM cam with solid lifters and generally had to use ALL those rpms to stay competitive in the quarter (4.57 gears).

I finally bit the bullet and installed a 428CJ/Toploader combination and only had to turn 6200 rpm. BTW, there were no fitment problems with the FE motor.

Most recently, I installed an D0VE-headed 472 (.060 over 429 with 460 crank) in "Ice" (my '73 Grande), again with no fitment issues. I did this primarily in preparation to my installing a Trick Flow Street-headed 545 (429SCJ block, bored .030 over with a 4.500" forged crank) into "Fire." The 428CJ is going into my '69 Mach 1.

It has been my experience that on the street, it really is NOT the HP but the TORQUE that rules and believe me, the big blocks (429/460s) will more easily satisfy the torque goals for most folks with less effort (and treasure) than it takes to put together a comparable small block... be it Cleveland or Windsor, in my opinion.

With the D0VE-headed 472 in "Ice", I have no problem with spark plug access. I did go to the same springs that came on the 1971 429CJ/SCJ Mach 1s. In fact, as I was acquiring parts for this relatively mild build, I frequently cited the 1971 429SCJ motor as what I had when dealing with "parts" people.

In short, I believe it comes down to what your goals, assets and what you are willing to compromise on that needs to be addressed.

I hope this helps and not confuse the issue.

BT

 

[Finmach]

Ease up on the starbucks there pal. 1- i posted that a BOSS is not a drop in. I will indeed look for the Kaase story on fitting his motor in a 71. Will be interesting im sure. We know that the CJ is a drop in of course. 2- all i said was that i had never seen a Cleveland in a '65 pony car. I double checked above. Yup, thats what it says. And finally i asked about the Fin taxes only out of curiosity; friends in Ireland tell me that taxes are based on C.I. And that my car would be hugely taxed over there. That is why American Muscle is so rare in his country. Glad to hear your country doesnt tax in the same way. So, its been fun reading your posts. Take it easy.

My apologies, I jumped the gun big time. I am not used to that my sayings are questioned - better start to? :angel: I am glad that our goverment treats the ol' cars by the weight, all the new vehicles are taxed by the carbon dioxide emission and that does not favor new US built vehicles with big engines for sure. I will be delivering a fiberglass bumper for my friend on next week, he's got a '72 Mach 1 built for Road Sport racing series, he's got there a 32 Valve Cobra Modular engine, I'll take few pics, the engine is 30" wide and is between the stock unmodified shocktowers. Thats a tight one. I'll post an another topic from that one.

IMO that Cobra3073 post is excellent. What do you seriously think which one is more streetable 600 hp 351 cid engine or 600 hp 460 cid engine or 650 hp 408 cid engine or 650 hp 557 cid – you don’t need to be a rocket scientist to figure out that. I do like the angry small blocks but do prefer bigger engines due to torque and you don’t need any exotic parts and the engine remains as low maintenance engine.

What comes for the sparkplugs, it’s not bad, the only place that needs some effort is the one closest (under) to the masterbrakecylinder. It’s the “tough” one but very doable IMO and that with Ford Racing A429 Cobra Jet heads and with the tall Ford Racing valvecovers. I have the Blue Thunder Competition Covers waiting for active duty, they are significantly lower profile.

 

[droptop73]

With all due respect, 600 - 650 horsepower, naturally aspirated, is not what I call streetable. Can you drive it on the street? Yes... kinda with many compromises. Can you drive it regularly? Maybe... if you have a high tolerance for shenanigans. I think "streetable means something you can drive regularly with minimal problems on pump gas, maybe E-85. 650 HP will get you DEEP into the 10 second range on a well set-up drag car. I believe that the compression, carburetion and cam timing required to make that kind of power whether big block or small block move the streetability into the marginal range. Now if you want to talk boosted, that's a different topic altogether.

 

[TommyK]

With all due respect, 600 - 650 horsepower, naturally aspirated, is not what I call streetable. Can you drive it on the street? Yes... kinda with many compromises. Can you drive it regularly? Maybe... if you have a high tolerance for shenanigans. I think "streetable means something you can drive regularly with minimal problems on pump gas, maybe E-85. 650 HP will get you DEEP into the 10 second range on a well set-up drag car. I believe that the compression, carburetion and cam timing required to make that kind of power whether big block or small block move the streetability into the marginal range. Now if you want to talk boosted, that's a different topic altogether.

I agree. My definition of streetable is having enough vacuum to run power brakes, be able to idle in traffic on a hot summer day etc... I understand that other people may have another bench mark.

If I am lucky my junk yard combo makes 400 hp and it is scary when you stab the throttle at anything below 40 mph.

 

[Finmach]

I am using Comp Cams vacuum "reservoir" canister and I'm having next to none vacuum problems. If thats not enough you can use electric vacuum pump.

For the engine heating, I've got oil cooler without a fan, with fan it'll boost the performance of the cooler. If none of these doesn't belong to street car, then you're limited to the mild builds like 500 hp 460 cid. Still obtaining a correct cam is the key to the happines.