big block vs small block?

[cazsper]

Thank for everyone's input. I do appreciate it. I know the Windsor based motors pretty well (I've had quite a few). which is also what I'm asking all these questions. Truth be told, I probably don't "need" anything extravagant. It basically matters "how more much more than stock" am I willing to live with/pay for? I currently have a 4v Cleveland in my car now. No offense to the purists out there, but I just don't see how it's advantage over a Windsor for a street application. If I'm going with a NA engine, it seems like I should just go with the Cleveland. I already have it and even the iron 4v heads should be enough for a stroker.

for a supercharged small block I'm thinking a Windsor based motor. For a big block, I have always been intrigued by a 520 stroker.

In your opinion, is one going to be better to "live with" than another? Changing plus without having the motor up, finding parts (water pump, etc). Any cooling system issues? Will the 460 handle well enough for a daily driver on the twisties going to the beach? These are my concerns..

 

[wwhite72]

Man, you're all over the place. Fin, tell him to drop in a Boss 429 just to add another direcion to this thread!

 

[cazsper]

No kidding..lol

My '68 had an AFR headed 393w that will be in storage once my supercharged EFI 415w is in. I have a 460 block prepped and ready to build. Not to mention, my '73 already has a 4v Cleveland in it. I may just need two more cars...

 

[Kermit 460]

Thank for everyone's input. I do appreciate it. I know the Windsor based motors pretty well (I've had quite a few). which is also what I'm asking all these questions. Truth be told, I probably don't "need" anything extravagant. It basically matters "how more much more than stock" am I willing to live with/pay for? I currently have a 4v Cleveland in my car now. No offense to the purists out there, but I just don't see how it's advantage over a Windsor for a street application. If I'm going with a NA engine, it seems like I should just go with the Cleveland. I already have it and even the iron 4v heads should be enough for a stroker.

for a supercharged small block I'm thinking a Windsor based motor. For a big block, I have always been intrigued by a 520 stroker.

In your opinion, is one going to be better to "live with" than another? Changing plus without having the motor up, finding parts (water pump, etc). Any cooling system issues? Will the 460 handle well enough for a daily driver on the twisties going to the beach? These are my concerns..

My iron headed 460 rides & handles nice . I don't drive easy all the time either.

 

[cazsper]

Thank for everyone's input. I do appreciate it. I know the Windsor based motors pretty well (I've had quite a few). which is also what I'm asking all these questions. Truth be told, I probably don't "need" anything extravagant. It basically matters "how more much more than stock" am I willing to live with/pay for? I currently have a 4v Cleveland in my car now. No offense to the purists out there, but I just don't see how it's advantage over a Windsor for a street application. If I'm going with a NA engine, it seems like I should just go with the Cleveland. I already have it and even the iron 4v heads should be enough for a stroker.

for a supercharged small block I'm thinking a Windsor based motor. For a big block, I have always been intrigued by a 520 stroker.

In your opinion, is one going to be better to "live with" than another? Changing plus without having the motor up, finding parts (water pump, etc). Any cooling system issues? Will the 460 handle well enough for a daily driver on the twisties going to the beach? These are my concerns..

My iron headed 460 rides & handles nice . I don't drive easy all the time either.

Kermit,

I'm just curious, what are you using for compression, cam, intake? I've heard conflicting posts about issues changing plugs with headers. Any issues?

 

[Mesozoic]

Fin,

I've built a lot motors for various vehicles, I know how large a big block Ford is. There's no denying the weight penalty and while there are lighter aftermarket block options available, you will pay for them dearly. Big blocks have their place, no doubt. An all out track dominating monster might consider one because the overall strength is much greater due to the extra webbing and associated mass. It's easier and cheaper squeezing 900 hp out of a big block Ford than it is out of a small block. Most folks however, are not running at that power level and don't need to. Similarly expensive mods to the driveline including the transmission and chassis have to be addressed to handle that power.

Regarding 302s, I was able to physically lift and relocate my Dart Iron Eagle block by myself, without even using gloves. I do not recall being able to do that when I pulled the 460 that had been shoehorned into my '79 Bronco. I didn't weigh the Iron Eagle, but I'm probably close in my assumption that the block weight was less than 200 lbs. No wait... Dart Machinery's website indicates it weights 160 lbs.

Regarding fuel mileage, my 408W got 22 mpg on the highway spinning at 3800-4000 RPM for 200 miles. No overdrive. With an overdrive and my multiport fuel injection with EDIS8 setup you can guarantee I'll be doing a lot better than that.

If you don't need the handling, the extra weight of the big block may make it worthwhile considering. For me, I spend almost as much money on my suspension and chassis... Bilstein shocks, coilovers, handling is important to me. I live in an area with a lot of twisty roads and I like my sports cars to handle like my motorcycles.

 

[Finmach]

Here are few scaled 1971-1972 Mach 1 Mustangs:

My bone stock 1972 Mach 1 with 351C 4V heads, FMX (heavy b”#¤h), 9” rear and 15x7 magnums. It had a non-functioning A/C when I bought it (adds weight too). Only modification was aluminium intakemanifold and Hooker headers. Scale showed 3571 lbs with unknown amount of fuel at the fuel tank. Car handled good.

The same 1972 Mach 1 after swapping aluminium headed 460 cid+ TKO600 with scattershield and twin disc clutch. Ditched the A/C. I did added comparered to the original a Cal-tracs, heavier 4 ½” rear leafs, subframe connectors with cross bars, 3 ½” Mark Williams driveshaft, 2 x driveshaft safety loops, changed to a thicker front sway bar, fabricated a 3 ½” exhaust from the collectors to the rear valance with thick wall (1/12”) and there was a small toolbox in the car when it was driven to scaled & inspection (was also a shake down run…). Scaled weight was 3704 lbs so 133 lbs difference to the original weight. If I would have only swapped the engine & tranny, I would say that the extra weight is tops 30-60 lbs compared to the original 351C 4V iron head combo. Car handles good.

Very similar car, my friends 1971 Mach 1 was only swapped an iron headed 460 cid with aluminium intake and a C6 transmission, driveshaft was modified original. No A/C but with folding rear seat option which adds weight. Scaled weight was 3638 lbs. Diffrence to my stock 351C 4V weight was 67 lbs. Car handles good.

I do understand that, if the SBF is to be built with aluminium heads, intake, waterpump etc – it’ll be lighter than the alum.headed 429/460 for sure. Then it comes to the point where you need to know what you’re going to build and what do you expect from the car once it done. At that point you’ll need to make your decision which route to go.

With 351c or 351w or 302 with SC at the powerlevel were I am right now, I would have made the same modifications to the driveline&suspension&body as I did now.

Why I am defending BBF engines is that nearly without an exeption guys whos got SBF under the bonnet of their cars keeps telling how lousy and heavy engines the bigger ones are. I would say, install one in to your ride and tell how bad it is. I am not telling you that how bad the SBF’s are, I am telling my experiences from the 351c/429/460 engines. I try not to be bashing any engines exept the chebby ones...

Best thing to get for any vehicle is to get good quality shocks as Mesozoic states. I Haven’t used the Bilsteins but I am using adjustable Koni shocks which were custom made for my car’s specs. I am only running with 286 lbs front springs and the car handles good on curvy roads – the shocks are incredible.

If you want a feather light engine, try to find a 90’s Ford SVO V6 cylinder Nascar engine? They were strong, close to 300 cid and made some real hp, would be lighter than any of the engines mentioned above and would achieve your powergoal with supercharger and still be lighter… Hard to find parts, dunno, been playing only with the idea of installing one to a ol' european Ford Cortina or similar..

Now I rest my case, there’s not much left to say on this topic - good to have conversation though.

 

[cazsper]

Here are few scaled 1971-1972 Mach 1 Mustangs:

My bone stock 1972 Mach 1 with 351C 4V heads, FMX (heavy b”#¤h), 9” rear and 15x7 magnums. It had a non-functioning A/C when I bought it (adds weight too). Only modification was aluminium intakemanifold and Hooker headers. Scale showed 3571 lbs with unknown amount of fuel at the fuel tank. Car handled good.

The same 1972 Mach 1 after swapping aluminium headed 460 cid+ TKO600 with scattershield and twin disc clutch. Ditched the A/C. I did added comparered to the original a Cal-tracs, heavier 4 ½” rear leafs, subframe connectors with cross bars, 3 ½” Mark Williams driveshaft, 2 x driveshaft safety loops, changed to a thicker front sway bar, fabricated a 3 ½” exhaust from the collectors to the rear valance with thick wall (1/12”) and there was a small toolbox in the car when it was driven to scaled & inspection (was also a shake down run…). Scaled weight was 3704 lbs so 133 lbs difference to the original weight. If I would have only swapped the engine & tranny, I would say that the extra weight is tops 30-60 lbs compared to the original 351C 4V iron head combo. Car handles good.

Very similar car, my friends 1971 Mach 1 was only swapped an iron headed 460 cid with aluminium intake and a C6 transmission, driveshaft was modified original. No A/C but with folding rear seat option which adds weight. Scaled weight was 3638 lbs. Diffrence to my stock 351C 4V weight was 67 lbs. Car handles good.

I do understand that, if the SBF is to be built with aluminium heads, intake, waterpump etc – it’ll be lighter than the alum.headed 429/460 for sure. Then it comes to the point where you need to know what you’re going to build and what do you expect from the car once it done. At that point you’ll need to make your decision which route to go.

With 351c or 351w or 302 with SC at the powerlevel were I am right now, I would have made the same modifications to the driveline&suspension&body as I did now.

Why I am defending BBF engines is that nearly without an exeption guys whos got SBF under the bonnet of their cars keeps telling how lousy and heavy engines the bigger ones are. I would say, install one in to your ride and tell how bad it is. I am not telling you that how bad the SBF’s are, I am telling my experiences from the 351c/429/460 engines. I try not to be bashing any engines exept the chebby ones...

Best thing to get for any vehicle is to get good quality shocks as Mesozoic states. I Haven’t used the Bilsteins but I am using adjustable Koni shocks which were custom made for my car’s specs. I am only running with 286 lbs front springs and the car handles good on curvy roads – the shocks are incredible.

If you want a feather light engine, try to find a 90’s Ford SVO V6 cylinder Nascar engine? They were strong, close to 300 cid and made some real hp, would be lighter than any of the engines mentioned above and would achieve your powergoal with supercharger and still be lighter… Hard to find parts, dunno, been playing only with the idea of installing one to a ol' european Ford Cortina or similar..

Now I rest my case, there’s not much left to say on this topic - good to have conversation though.

Wow, thank you. I really hate to keep beating a dead horse. That was great info.. do you find it any more difficult to change the plugs? I would hater to do all this and then have to deal with something like that. So, if you were to do it all over again, you would stick with the 460? Do you mind telling me your engine combo (displacement, compression, cam, intake)? Thanks again..

Mike

 

[Mesozoic]

I've always been a fan of the hood emblem that says "351 RAM AIR" or the accompanying big block "429 RAM AIR." Since the '71 Mustang was the only factory Mustang that was designed specifically to accomodate the larger 385-series engines, I certainly wouldn't hesitate to build one up and drop it in there! Especially if I were able to obtain the parts to sort of replicate the '71 with a 429 Super Cobra Jet.

 

[Finmach]

If you’re having a second thoughts from the spark plug changing go with the SBF. Changing spark plugs is a piece of cake compared to change the whole engine. When changing the plugs from 429/460 I would remove the original export braces – I’ve replaced them to MPG quick release export braces – they work like a charm, weight less and gives you good clearance over the engine. I am not afraid of the spark plug removal or installing the new ones. Afterall, do you change the sparkplugs weekly? Monthly? Annually?

If I were to do it all over again, to be honest I would not go with the 460 cid. I would go with the 557-605 cid depending from the block used but stroke would be 4.500”.

My current engine is not probably a good comparison for anything, since it’s only std. bore & stroke 460 cid. Stroke is though a 3.850” so it’s the same stroke as 393w / 408w/c uses, so it’s basically a stroked out 429 eventhough its a stock 460 cid stroke. It’s got a 10.64 compression, ported A429 Cobra Jet heads, single plane Victor Jr, with 850 cfm double pump. Cam is hydraulic flat tappet with 244 / 254 at 0.050” and 0.588” and 0.614” with 106 degrees of intake centerline. Once it’s in right tune, it pulls from the idle and it’s not afraid to go in the 7000 rpm where my rpm limiter is set. I am in progress of collecting parts to make it a 660-680+ hp range with mechanical roller (1.43 hp – 1.48 hp per cid), I’ve got the Comp Cams bumpstick, K-motion Valvesprings and Holley Ultra Dominator already in my possession.

AFR is soon (was about to be at this time, but probably another year or so – just my guess though) about to release a series of 429/460 heads, if they are as half as good as their sbf counterparts it should get interesting. I mean that there are plenty of good Ford BB heads that can generate serious hp but AFR is a new player at the BBF field. Can’t wait to see & hear the results with those heads. I am not waiting anything revolutionary but a new good choices for the enthusiasts.

 

[Mesozoic]

If you’re having a second thoughts from the spark plug changing go with the SBF. Changing spark plugs is a piece of cake compared to change the whole engine. When changing the plugs from 429/460 I would remove the original export braces – I’ve replaced them to MPG quick release export braces – they work like a charm, weight less and gives you good clearance over the engine. I am not afraid of the spark plug removal or installing the new ones. Afterall, do you change the sparkplugs weekly? Monthly? Annually?

If I were to do it all over again, to be honest I would not go with the 460 cid. I would go with the 557-605 cid depending from the block used but stroke would be 4.500”.

My current engine is not probably a good comparison for anything, since it’s only std. bore & stroke 460 cid. Stroke is though a 3.850” so it’s the same stroke as 393w / 408w/c uses, so it’s basically a stroked out 429 eventhough its a stock 460 cid stroke. It’s got a 10.64 compression, ported A429 Cobra Jet heads, single plane Victor Jr, with 850 cfm double pump. Cam is hydraulic flat tappet with 244 / 254 at 0.050” and 0.588” and 0.614” with 106 degrees of intake centerline. Once it’s in right tune, it pulls from the idle and it’s not afraid to go in the 7000 rpm where my rpm limiter is set. I am in progress of collecting parts to make it a 660-680+ hp range with mechanical roller (1.43 hp – 1.48 hp per cid), I’ve got the Comp Cams bumpstick, K-motion Valvesprings and Holley Ultra Dominator already in my possession.

AFR is soon (was about to be at this time, but probably another year or so – just my guess though) about to release a series of 429/460 heads, if they are as half as good as their sbf counterparts it should get interesting. I mean that there are plenty of good Ford BB heads that can generate serious hp but AFR is a new player at the BBF field. Can’t wait to see & hear the results with those heads. I am not waiting anything revolutionary but a new good choices for the enthusiasts.

I don't know about AFR, but I've run many sets of Edelbrock heads and have never been disappointed. They are top quality pieces and the Victor series heads make a ton of power right out of the box: http://edelbrock.com/automotive_new/mc/cylheads/ford/main_ford_bb.shtml

Perhaps one day I'll build a big block Ford for the '71 and replace my decal with the "429 RAM AIR" piece!

 

[wwhite72]

Edelbrock is top quality, no question. But they do not flow like CHI. Check Kaase on the CHI 3v's and you will be impressed TMeyer in WI also a big fan of CHI. MME racing in MD also a big fan. Throw in a Scott Cook intake and you will be shocked at the flow rates on the Cleveland. Good stuff! And in an engine that can really run at 6500 rpm all day.

 

[Mesozoic]

Yeah, I was just on CHI's website and would love to run a set of Kaase C-400s. They are pretty darn spendy, though... you're looking at around $5K for a set of complete heads!

Their website says their designed for SBF, so does that mean you can bolt a set of these heads onto a Windsor block and not have to go through the water passages and other mods?

 

[cazsper]

Why would someone build a Windsor with Cleveland heads vs a Cleveland?

 

[Mesozoic]

Why would someone build a Windsor with Cleveland heads vs a Cleveland?

That's actually a really good question. The Windsor boasts a rock solid oiling system by way of cross drilled lifter bore oil passages or something, so the main bearings are not starving for oil as in the Cleveland/M blocks. The Windsor however, has a large 3.0" crank journal diameter which is really not designed for high RPM use (although you can make it work). The Cleveland has the smaller crank journal for less friction. One thing I really like about the Cleveland, aside from the canted valve heads, is the lack of coolant flowing through the intake and the integral timing chain cover is brilliant.

The '69-74 early 351W blocks are known to be high nickel content and good for over 750 hp, so it's really not a bad option. The small block Ford has massive aftermarket support, making an engine build cheaper and with lots of options. Also, not sure who's had issues with V belts flying off due to alignment issues, but the stock serpentine setup drops right into a SBF. EFI is easy along with factory roller cam setup. Clevelands heads bolt onto Windsor blocks, of course, with minor machine work. I think the CHI heads are a bolt on affair.

 

[droptop73]

There are MUCH better windsor blocks available and good cleveland blocks are getting hard to find.

 

[cazsper]

I'm just curious. How would something like AFR-205 or AFR-220 heads compare to 4v Cleveland heads? They seem to be geared towards larger displacement motors in a higher RPM range. Not to mention, they seem to flow pretty well out of the box even before they've been cleaned or touched up.

 

[mdan575]

AFR is one of the top SBF out of the box cylinder header producers for a reason. They really do produce a good product. But you will also pay for the added power they produce. That is the reason I like the Edelbrock heads so much. You can get a used set of aluminum edelbrock heads for 700-800 that will easily out perform ported stock castings. Hell you can have almost that much into a set of rebuilt and worked GT40 castings that still won't produce as much power.

Far as the cleveland heads go I look at this way. People are not using them for a reason. I know many die hard racers years ago who loved the 351C 4V for racing but they have all converted to stroked SBF's. If it produced more power than what is currently on the market then alot more people would be using them. They are a great head that really likes to run. But still old technology. The aftermarket has had almost 40 years improving on the cylinder head designs for 302/351. Today the 351C is a novelty motor. Copy the Boss 351 engine specs and you will have a decent performer. 351C doesn't get alot of love in the aftermarket so the innovation isn't there.

 

[cazsper]

Yes, I've used AFR heads. I actually have two pair right now. My '68 coupe has a set on my 393w and I just built a 415w with a Dart block and a set of AFR-205's. After using them, I couldn't imagine using anything else.

I certainly don't mean to start another "Cleveland vs Windsor" debate, but those that are into the Clevelands are really into their Clevelands. From what I have seen as far as flow numbers, out of the box AFR-205's, flow as much as ported 4v heads. I also think it's funny when people see that I have a Windsor in my '68 they seem like it's no big deal. But they think I've just parted the red sea when they see the Cleveland in my MACH-1. My '68 would blow the cleveland away, and at below 6000rpm. I guess everyone has their interest..

 

[hyena429]

Nothing wrong with making a cleveland street motor...Specialy if you already got the block crank and heads..No need for a dart block...Cleveland block already much stronger than a 351w stock....saves you a bit of money....Big heads...No need for porting....Small crank already no mods needed there....Jack Roush would push his stock Cleveland cranks up too 9500 rpm...And they dont have that big of oiling issues like most think...Jack Roush only used a high pressure relief spring and his little cam bearing oil restrictor kit in pro stock on his Clevelands...Aftermarket cranks really gave the Cleveland a bad name for oiling issues....When it was better at the job than a 427 side oiler...Good read http://www.7173mustangs.com/thread-the-amazing-351c-4v

Its a good motor and can save you alot of money and time if you have one in your hands...heck im just changing the cam..carb..headers...On my motor and expecting 425 to the fly wheel...That is hard to do with many small blocks and im not even taking it as far as i could....Cleveland was made to hang with much bigger motors in racing...Like the 426 hemi...Kinda funny how with the same lift it makes the same power of any of the monster big blocks of the era with less cubes....Counts how crazy you wanna go..But block can handle over 750 hp...You have to get a dart block to hang with a stock Cleveland 70's block ..It can handle as much HP as a Gen 4 big block chevy.....It's a well webbed and built up in the right places.....And head's are still good racers to this day..Only reason not being used today as much...Cast iron and heavy....If they made cheaper aftermarket heads for them they would be the kings still, thing the SBF has over a cleveland i think mostly is aftermarket parts.."dart blocks and aluminum heads and such"..Why should suppliers make race parts for a Engine not being made anymore? It is a shame really...Bad press killed it...And alot of Ford racers kept using it years after it was out of production.

And as for the heads...As posted above in the artical

"It's cylinder head is the ultimate canted valve cylinder head. It's basic architecture continues to influence the racing heads designed by Ford and Chevrolet to this day. If the design was faulty, this wouldn't be so"

"was capable of competing on equal ground with hemi headed 7 liter motors. With the same 0.6" lift endurance cams, at the same rpm, with the same carburetion, the 351 cubic inch Ford made equal horsepower as the FE427, the Boss 429, the 426 Hemi and the 421 Super Duty. It could power a Torino around the super ovals like Taladega and Daytona at equal speed, and with equal reliability as the big blocks. It could cruise around a super oval at 7200 rpm all day long without breaking. It did this with a thin cast block, no side oiling, no steel crank. The 351C 4V was assembled on an assembly line at 20% of the cost of a Boss 429 or the 427 FE. "

That will be the last thing i got to say about the Cleveland...Yes im a fan of the it..But i like them all