Swaping my 351 cleveland for 408w stroker

[tony-muscle]

If you are planning on replacing all the internals may as well go with a stroker kit. It will be a lot easier to achieve that power level with a smaller cam and decent vacuum.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

 

[Don C]

A 3.25 rear end is probably a little tall for the cams you're looking at. Play around with the spreadsheet in this thread to get an idea of the variables associated with cam selections

https://www.7173mustangs.com/thread-camshaft-selection?pid=278395#pid278395

 

[EvilPuppetMaster]

A 3.25 rear end is probably a little tall for the cams you're looking at. Play around with the spreadsheet in this thread to get an idea of the variables associated with cam selections

https://www.7173mustangs.com/thread-camshaft-selection?pid=278395#pid278395

Thanks Don

So what do you think about 

Voodoo 62502 or Voodoo 62503?

62503 has nice rough idle but looks like my specs could handle it

•  
  
• Advertised Duration (Int/Exh): 268/276
   
  
• Duration @ .050 (Int/Exh): 227/233
   
  
• Gross Valve Lift (Int/Exh): .552/.564
   
  
• LSA/ICL: 110/106
   
  
• Valve Lash (Int/Exh): Hyd/Hyd
   
  
• RPM Range: 2000-6000
  

62502 is few notches milder and less choppy...

•  
  
• Advertised Duration (Int/Exh): 262/268
   
  
• Duration @ .050 (Int/Exh): 219/227
   
  
• Gross Valve Lift (Int/Exh): .540/.552
   
  
• LSA/ICL: 112/108
   
  
• Valve Lash (Int/Exh): Hyd/Hyd
   
  
• RPM Range: 1800-5800
  

Alex

 

[barnett468]

A 3.25 rear end is probably a little tall for the cams you're looking at. Play around with the spreadsheet in this thread to get an idea of the variables associated with cam selections

https://www.7173mustangs.com/thread-camshaft-selection?pid=278395#pid278395

Thanks Don

So what do you think about 

Voodoo 62502 or Voodoo 62503?

62503 has nice rough idle but looks like my specs could handle it

• Advertised Duration (Int/Exh): 268/276
   
  
• Duration @ .050 (Int/Exh): 227/233
   
  
• Gross Valve Lift (Int/Exh): .552/.564
   
  
• LSA/ICL: 110/106
   
  
• Valve Lash (Int/Exh): Hyd/Hyd
   
  
• RPM Range: 2000-6000
  

62502 is few notches milder and less choppy...

• Advertised Duration (Int/Exh): 262/268
   
  
• Duration @ .050 (Int/Exh): 219/227
   
  
• Gross Valve Lift (Int/Exh): .540/.552
   
  
• LSA/ICL: 112/108
   
  
• Valve Lash (Int/Exh): Hyd/Hyd
   
  
• RPM Range: 1800-5800
  

Alex

as tony mentioned, you might consider a stroker kit. this way you will have good low end that will spin the tire with your 3.25 gear ratio. 

the 262 cam is safe with your 3.25 gears and you could get away with the 268 but you need a stall converter with it. also, there is little point to putting $2600.00 heads on it if you leave it at 351 cubes and use the 262 cam.

a stroker with even the chinese heads and the 268 cam will roast your tires...or tire if it is not a posi.

 

[barnett468]

A 3.25 rear end is probably a little tall for the cams you're looking at. Play around with the spreadsheet in this thread to get an idea of the variables associated with cam selections

https://www.7173mustangs.com/thread-camshaft-selection?pid=278395#pid278395

Thanks Don

So what do you think about 

Voodoo 62502 or Voodoo 62503?

62503 has nice rough idle but looks like my specs could handle it

• Advertised Duration (Int/Exh): 268/276
   
  
• Duration @ .050 (Int/Exh): 227/233
   
  
• Gross Valve Lift (Int/Exh): .552/.564
   
  
• LSA/ICL: 110/106
   
  
• Valve Lash (Int/Exh): Hyd/Hyd
   
  
• RPM Range: 2000-6000
  

62502 is few notches milder and less choppy...

• Advertised Duration (Int/Exh): 262/268
   
  
• Duration @ .050 (Int/Exh): 219/227
   
  
• Gross Valve Lift (Int/Exh): .540/.552
   
  
• LSA/ICL: 112/108
   
  
• Valve Lash (Int/Exh): Hyd/Hyd
   
  
• RPM Range: 1800-5800
  

Alex

as tony mentioned, you might consider a stroker kit. this way you will have good low end that will spin the tires with your 3.25 gear ratio. 

the 262 cam is safe with your 3.25 gears and you could get away with the 268 but you need a stall converter with it. also, there is little point to putting $2600.00 heads on it if you leave it at 351 cubes and use the 262 cam because you are not utilizing the potential of the heads. yes it will run well but a stroker with even the chinese heads and the 268 cam will roast your tires...or tire if it is not a posi.

the 262 will not have any significant lope, especially with the 112 lobe center but they can custom grind it on a 110 lobe center.

i typically use morel lifters when using rollers. at least some of the lifters lunati sells are morels and their price is decent but they may be cheaper at colorado speed.

.

 

[EvilPuppetMaster]

Thanks Don

So what do you think about 

Voodoo 62502 or Voodoo 62503?

62503 has nice rough idle but looks like my specs could handle it

• Advertised Duration (Int/Exh): 268/276
   
  
• Duration @ .050 (Int/Exh): 227/233
   
  
• Gross Valve Lift (Int/Exh): .552/.564
   
  
• LSA/ICL: 110/106
   
  
• Valve Lash (Int/Exh): Hyd/Hyd
   
  
• RPM Range: 2000-6000
  

62502 is few notches milder and less choppy...

• Advertised Duration (Int/Exh): 262/268
   
  
• Duration @ .050 (Int/Exh): 219/227
   
  
• Gross Valve Lift (Int/Exh): .540/.552
   
  
• LSA/ICL: 112/108
   
  
• Valve Lash (Int/Exh): Hyd/Hyd
   
  
• RPM Range: 1800-5800
  

Alex

as tony mentioned, you might consider a stroker kit. this way you will have good low end that will spin the tires with your 3.25 gear ratio. 

the 262 cam is safe with your 3.25 gears and you could get away with the 268 but you need a stall converter with it. also, there is little point to putting $2600.00 heads on it if you leave it at 351 cubes and use the 262 cam because you are not utilizing the potential of the heads. yes it will run well but a stroker with even the chinese heads and the 268 cam will roast your tires...or tire if it is not a posi.

the 262 will not have any significant lope, especially with the 112 lobe center but they can custom grind it on a 110 lobe center.

i typically use morel lifters when using rollers. at least some of the lifters lunati sells are morels and their price is decent but they may be cheaper at colorado speed.

.

Thanks so much for your help.

I am a bit confused so please help me understand this little better.

I used Don's Cam recommendation excel app and if I select

350 CU

10.CR

3.25 rear end

Street/Strip

Automatic transmission

I get

285 degrees Advertised duration

110-112 LSA

2500 stall converter

650 carb

I am just confused with the fact that it recommends such a large advertised duration. Even if I change from street/strip to just street it sets it to 275 degrees.

All these cams that I was suggesting are below that duration. I just don't want to buy a cam that will have an issue with CR

There is also comp cam 270H as well as XE262H which according to comp require 3.30 + Gears...

I will go with aluminum aftermarket heads and will be aiming for 10 CR. 

Maybe the best thing to do would be to go up to 3.55 or 3.73 gears. I will not be doing lots of highway driving but even if I would I could install AOD instead of the c6

Alex

 

[barnett468]

Thanks so much for your help.

I am a bit confused so please help me understand this little better.

I used Don's Cam recommendation excel app and if I select

350 CU

10.CR

3.25 rear end

Street/Strip

Automatic transmission

I get

285 degrees Advertised duration

110-112 LSA

2500 stall converter

650 carb

I am just confused with the fact that it recommends such a large advertised duration. Even if I change from street/strip to just street it sets it to 275 degrees.

All these cams that I was suggesting are below that duration. I just don't want to buy a cam that will have an issue with CR

There is also comp cam 270H as well as XE262H which according to comp require 3.30 + Gears...

I will go with aluminum aftermarket heads and will be aiming for 10 CR. 

Maybe the best thing to do would be to go up to 3.55 or 3.73 gears. I will not be doing lots of highway driving but even if I would I could install AOD instead of the c6

Alex

I am a restorer and an engine builder and have been doing this since over 40 years and I can tell you that trying to understand cams is like trying to understand brain surgery. It is best left to the experts.

There are MANY aspects to a cam that affect how they will perform and those aspects need to be matched the the flow rate of the head and intended useage to achieve the optimum results.

Cams durations are not only measured at the "advertised" (total) amount of duration, they are also measured at .050" lift which is the smaller of the 2 duration numbers mfg's post. Different cams also have different ramp curves which affect how quickly the valve opens.

Why do you not install a stroker kit since you don't want to rev high and wants lots of low end power to roast the tires?

 

[barnett468]

Thanks so much for your help.

I am a bit confused so please help me understand this little better.

I used Don's Cam recommendation excel app and if I select

350 CU

10.CR

3.25 rear end

Street/Strip

Automatic transmission

I get

285 degrees Advertised duration

110-112 LSA

2500 stall converter

650 carb

I am just confused with the fact that it recommends such a large advertised duration. Even if I change from street/strip to just street it sets it to 275 degrees.

All these cams that I was suggesting are below that duration. I just don't want to buy a cam that will have an issue with CR

There is also comp cam 270H as well as XE262H which according to comp require 3.30 + Gears...

I will go with aluminum aftermarket heads and will be aiming for 10 CR. 

Maybe the best thing to do would be to go up to 3.55 or 3.73 gears. I will not be doing lots of highway driving but even if I would I could install AOD instead of the c6

Alex

I am a restorer and an engine builder and have been doing this since over 40 years and I can tell you that trying to understand cams is like trying to understand brain surgery. It is best left to the experts.

There are MANY aspects to a cam that affect how they will perform and those aspects need to be matched the the flow rate of the head and intended useage to achieve the optimum results.

Cams durations are not only measured at the "advertised" (total) amount of duration, they are also measured at .050" lift which is the smaller of the 2 duration numbers mfg's post. Different cams also have different ramp curves which affect how quickly the valve opens.

In general, the bigger the engine, the longer the advertised duration should be.

Why do you not install a stroker kit since you don't want to rev high and wants lots of low end power to roast the tires?

 

[barnett468]

Thanks so much for your help.

I am a bit confused so please help me understand this little better.

I used Don's Cam recommendation excel app and if I select

350 CU

10.CR

3.25 rear end

Street/Strip

Automatic transmission

I get

285 degrees Advertised duration

110-112 LSA

2500 stall converter

650 carb

I am just confused with the fact that it recommends such a large advertised duration. Even if I change from street/strip to just street it sets it to 275 degrees.

All these cams that I was suggesting are below that duration. I just don't want to buy a cam that will have an issue with CR

There is also comp cam 270H as well as XE262H which according to comp require 3.30 + Gears...

I will go with aluminum aftermarket heads and will be aiming for 10 CR. 

Maybe the best thing to do would be to go up to 3.55 or 3.73 gears. I will not be doing lots of highway driving but even if I would I could install AOD instead of the c6

Alex

I am a restorer and an engine builder and have been doing this since over 40 years and I can tell you that trying to understand cams is like trying to understand brain surgery. It is best left to the experts.

There are MANY aspects to a cam that affect how they will perform and those aspects need to be matched the the flow rate of the head and intended useage to achieve the optimum results.

Cams durations are not only measured at the "advertised" (total) amount of duration, they are also measured at .050" lift which is the smaller of the 2 duration numbers mfg's post. Different cams also have different ramp curves which affect how quickly the valve opens.

In general, the bigger the engine, the longer the advertised duration should be.

One of the most popular cams for a 347 stroker is comps 274xe or lunatis roller version ground on a 110 lsa but these need at least 3.50 gears.

Why do you not install a stroker kit since you don't want to rev high and wants lots of low end power to roast the tires?

 

[barnett468]

I am a restorer and an engine builder and have been doing this since over 40 years and I can tell you that trying to understand cams is like trying to understand brain surgery. It is best left to the experts.

There are MANY aspects to a cam that affect how they will perform and those aspects need to be matched the the flow rate of the head and intended useage to achieve the optimum results.

Cams durations are not only measured at the "advertised" (total) amount of duration, they are also measured at .050" lift which is the smaller of the 2 duration numbers mfg's post. Different cams also have different ramp curves which affect how quickly the valve opens. Then you combine this with the amount of overlap and lift etc and pick one that is best for your app.

In general, the bigger the engine, the longer the advertised duration should be.

One of the most popular cams for a 347 stroker is comps 274xe or lunatis roller version ground on a 110 lsa but these need at least 3.50 gears.

If you don't drive for long periods of time at 65 mph or higher and want to get to the next signal lite extremely fast and be able to roast the tires easily and want to stick with 351 cubes, you should consider 3.73 instead of the 3.50's, plus a stall converter, but be careful what you wish for because you will get it if you really want it and in the end you might think it is a bit too much.

Why do you not install a stroker kit since you don't want to rev high and wants lots of low end power to roast the tires?

for the price it will cost you to have new bolts installed in your rods and the rods resized, you could have just about bought forged rods with good bolts.

heres several stroker kits

https://www.summitracing.com/search/part-type/engine-rotating-kits/make/ford/engine-size/5-8l-351/engine-family/ford-cleveland?SortBy=Default&SortOrder=Ascending

here is one that is only $1300.00 that will easily be strong enough for your power goal.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/esp-16800040/overview/make/ford

 

[EvilPuppetMaster]

Man you are going to get me kicked out of the house lollerz

The wife is not going to be happy. Ok what a heck, Always wanted stroker engine so let's do it.

I'll buy that 1300 dollars summit kit. The only thing is that kit is for 040 over and I do not want to hone my block to 040.

I will call them to see if they have 030 kit available

Alex

 

[EvilPuppetMaster]

Man you are going to get me kicked out of the house lollerz

The wife is not going to be happy. Ok what a heck, always wanted stroker engine so let's do it.

I'll buy that 1300 dollars summit kit. The only thing is that kit is for 040 over and I do not want to hone my block to 040.

I will call them to see if they have 030 kit available

Alex

 

[barnett468]

Man you are going to get me kicked out of the house lollerz

The wife is not going to be happy. Ok what a heck, always wanted stroker engine so let's do it.

I'll buy that 1300 dollars summit kit. The only thing is that kit is for 040 over and I do not want to hone my block  to 040.

I will call them to see if they have 030 kit available

Alex

at only $1300.00 it's not much more than what separate parts would cost you plus the crank grind and rod resize for your 351, and you can now but crappy (low budget) aluminum heads which will save you money, so in reality, it won't cost you much more at all for build a stroker if you want to do it on a budget.

you can then keep the 3.25 gears if you want although i would still consider 3.43 or 3.50's.

here is 1 cam option for the stroker. it will work with 3.25 gears and a stall converter but is better suited to 3.43 or 3.50 etc, especially if you use an open plenum intake.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/hrs-233215-10

let me know if they don't make .030" over. i can piece one together for you. also, if your block is standard, i would consider only going .020" over. custom pistons and rings are around $650.00.

 

[EvilPuppetMaster]

Man you are going to get me kicked out of the house lollerz

The wife is not going to be happy. Ok what a heck, always wanted stroker engine so let's do it.

I'll buy that 1300 dollars summit kit. The only thing is that kit is for 040 over and I do not want to hone my block  to 040.

I will call them to see if they have 030 kit available

Alex

at only $1300.00 it's not much more than what separate parts would cost you plus the crank grind and rod resize for your 351, and you can now but crappy (low budget) aluminum heads which will save you money, so in reality, it won't cost you much more at all for build a stroker if you want to do it on a budget.

you can then keep the 3.25 gears if you want although i would still consider 3.43 or 3.50's.

here is 1 cam option for the stroker. it will work with 3.25 gears and a stall converter but is better suited to 3.43 or 3.50 etc, especially if you use an open plenum intake.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/hrs-233215-10

let me know if they don't make .030" over. i can piece one together for you. also, if your block is standard, i would consider only going .020" over. custom pistons and rings are around $650.00.

Thanks for the cam info. They do have 030 kit

https://www.summitracing.com/dom/parts/esp-16800030

My current block is 030 over and machinist said that we can just hone it and it would clean up so I trust his opinion.

I'll keep you posted on the progress...

Alex

 

[barnett468]

Man you are going to get me kicked out of the house lollerz

The wife is not going to be happy. Ok what a heck, always wanted stroker engine so let's do it.

I'll buy that 1300 dollars summit kit. The only thing is that kit is for 040 over and I do not want to hone my block  to 040.

I will call them to see if they have 030 kit available

Alex

at only $1300.00 it's not much more than what separate parts would cost you plus the crank grind and rod resize for your 351, and you can now but crappy (low budget) aluminum heads which will save you money, so in reality, it won't cost you much more at all for build a stroker if you want to do it on a budget.

you can then keep the 3.25 gears if you want although i would still consider 3.43 or 3.50's.

here is 1 cam option for the stroker. it will work with 3.25 gears and a stall converter but is better suited to 3.43 or 3.50 etc, especially if you use an open plenum intake.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/hrs-233215-10

let me know if they don't make .030" over. i can piece one together for you. also, if your block is standard, i would consider only going .020" over. custom pistons and rings are around $650.00.

Thanks for the cam info. They do have 030 kit

https://www.summitracing.com/dom/parts/esp-16800030

My current block is 030 over and machinist said that we can just hone it and it would clean up so I trust his opinion.

I'll keep you posted on the progress...

Alex

i would ask him how for out of round it is and how much taper it has before doing anything. also, he needs the pistons before he hones it but he should know that.

.

 

[EvilPuppetMaster]

at only $1300.00 it's not much more than what separate parts would cost you plus the crank grind and rod resize for your 351, and you can now but crappy (low budget) aluminum heads which will save you money, so in reality, it won't cost you much more at all for build a stroker if you want to do it on a budget.

you can then keep the 3.25 gears if you want although i would still consider 3.43 or 3.50's.

here is 1 cam option for the stroker. it will work with 3.25 gears and a stall converter but is better suited to 3.43 or 3.50 etc, especially if you use an open plenum intake.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/hrs-233215-10

let me know if they don't make .030" over. i can piece one together for you. also, if your block is standard, i would consider only going .020" over. custom pistons and rings are around $650.00.

Thanks for the cam info. They do have 030 kit

https://www.summitracing.com/dom/parts/esp-16800030

My current block is 030 over and machinist said that we can just hone it and it would clean up so I trust his opinion.

I'll keep you posted on the progress...

Alex

i would ask him how for out of round it is and how much taper it has before doing anything. also, he needs the pistons before he hones it but he should know that.

.

Ok.. I just authorized him to do the sonic testing on the block... Its a cheep insurance that will tell us if the walls are thick enough so we can go to 040 over.

I know that Ford does not recommend going over 030 on the Cleveland but I have another 1970 block currently in my mustang that is 060 over.It's a low compression engine but no issues with overheating

Those early blocks were much better then 72 and up

Alex

 

[barnett468]

Thanks for the cam info. They do have 030 kit

https://www.summitracing.com/dom/parts/esp-16800030

My current block is 030 over and machinist said that we can just hone it and it would clean up so I trust his opinion.

I'll keep you posted on the progress...

Alex

i would ask him how for out of round it is and how much taper it has before doing anything. also, he needs the pistons before he hones it but he should know that.

.

Ok.. I just authorized him to do the sonic testing on the block... Its a cheep insurance that will tell us if the walls are thick enough so we can go to 040 over.

I know that Ford does not recommend going over 030 on the Cleveland but I have another 1970 block currently in my mustang that is 060 over.It's a low compression engine but no issues with overheating

Those early blocks were much better then 72 and up

Alex

the sonic test info is useful but if you don't go .040", it won't help you any at the moment.

i also wouldn't line bore it unless it needs it.

.

 

[EvilPuppetMaster]

i would ask him how for out of round it is and how much taper it has before doing anything. also, he needs the pistons before he hones it but he should know that.

.

Ok.. I just authorized him to do the sonic testing on the block... Its a cheep insurance that will tell us if the walls are thick enough so we can go to 040 over.

I know that Ford does not recommend going over 030 on the Cleveland but I have another 1970 block currently in my mustang that is 060 over.It's a low compression engine but no issues with overheating

Those early blocks were much better then 72 and up

Alex

the sonic test info is useful but if you don't go .040", it won't help you any at the moment.

i also wouldn't line bore it unless it needs it.

.

He can do sonic testing and if it is ok we will bore cylinders to 040.

I wanted to stay at 030 originally and he said that it would cleanup however he prefers to go to 040... Anyways, I just have to wait until next week for him to tell me to order either 040 or 030 kit. I'll ask more about sonic test results and will consult with you here before making the decision.

I did some CR math here and these pistons that come with this summit kit are +3 CC . With 64cc heads and 0.040 gasket it will bring compression to 11.8

Way too much

I also found these kits online:

FORD 351(2.75")-393 SCAT STROKER KIT Premium Forged(Flat)Pist., I-Beam Rods

https://www.ebay.ca/itm/FORD-351-2-75-393-SCAT-STROKER-KIT-Premium-Forged-Flat-Pist-I-Beam-Rods/252417282217?hash=item3ac53e10a9:g:LWkAAOSwpLNX7srw:rk:10f:0&vxp=mtr

and this one

FORD 351(2.75")-408 SCAT STROKER KIT Forged(Dish)Pist., I-Beam Rods

https://www.ebay.ca/itm/FORD-351-2-75-408-SCAT-STROKER-KIT-Forged-Dish-Pist-I-Beam-Rods/331875910062?hash=item4d455881ae:g:hV0AAOSwzaJX7sqj:rk:25f:0&vxp=mtr

Could you give me your opinion? What CR should I aim for to stay on the premium pump gas?

Cheers

Alex

 

[barnett468]

Ok.. I just authorized him to do the sonic testing on the block... Its a cheep insurance that will tell us if the walls are thick enough so we can go to 040 over.

I know that Ford does not recommend going over 030 on the Cleveland but I have another 1970 block currently in my mustang that is 060 over.It's a low compression engine but no issues with overheating

Those early blocks were much better then 72 and up

Alex

the sonic test info is useful but if you don't go .040", it won't help you any at the moment.

i also wouldn't line bore it unless it needs it.

.

He can do sonic testing and if it is ok we will bore cylinders to 040.

I wanted to stay at 030 originally and he said that it would cleanup however he prefers to go to 040... Anyways, I just have to wait until next week for him to tell me to order either 040 or 030 kit. I'll ask more about sonic test results and will consult with you here before making the decision.

I did some CR math here and these pistons that come with this summit kit are +3 CC . With 64cc heads and 0.040 gasket it will bring compression to 11.8

Way too much

I also found these kits online:

FORD 351(2.75")-393 SCAT STROKER KIT Premium Forged(Flat)Pist., I-Beam Rods

https://www.ebay.ca/itm/FORD-351-2-75-393-SCAT-STROKER-KIT-Premium-Forged-Flat-Pist-I-Beam-Rods/252417282217?hash=item3ac53e10a9:g:LWkAAOSwpLNX7srw:rk:10f:0&vxp=mtr

and this one

FORD 351(2.75")-408 SCAT STROKER KIT Forged(Dish)Pist., I-Beam Rods

https://www.ebay.ca/itm/FORD-351-2-75-408-SCAT-STROKER-KIT-Forged-Dish-Pist-I-Beam-Rods/331875910062?hash=item4d455881ae:g:hV0AAOSwzaJX7sqj:rk:25f:0&vxp=mtr

Could you give me your opinion? What CR should I aim for to stay on the premium pump gas?

Cheers

Alex

what is the elevation where you will be using it?

in your case, if you are within around 2000 feet of sea level, i would stick to around 9.5with aluminum heads, but it depends a little on which cam you use because the dynamic compression is the more important factor, not the static/uncorrected compression. i would also deck the block so the pistons are .002" to .003" below the deck. this will give you a little extra material in case you ever need to resurface it. i would then use .035" thick Cometic head gaskets.

 

[Don C]

This appears to be the same 408 kit, balanced, includes flexplate and harmonic balancer. Couldn't tell much from the eBay description. It has 15cc dished pistons, which are necessary if you use closed chamber heads.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sca-1-94272be/overview/make/ford