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Best hydraulic clutch master cylinder solution??


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Spent quite a bit of time searching past threads here and anything I could find on the net....thought I'd ask to see if there is any updated info out there??

 

If you are using a hydraulic clutch master cylinder, I'd appreciate info on whether you are using a kit or a home brew and the details......also, did your conversion work with factory power brake booster or did you replace the factory booster with something else? Details?? Any first hand info would be appreciated......even the failures!

 

I am really only interested in the clutch master cylinder parts of the conversion......we will be using a T56 with hydraulic throwout bearing, so we have that part covered.

Extra points for photos!! :D

 

Thanks, Mark

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http://americanpowertrain.com/i-8521624-1971-73-mustang-hydramax-hydraulic-clutch-actuator-system-for-tko-t45-3650-t5-t56-magnum.html

 

I purchaced this—I have not used it , just installed the hydr master cylinder for mock up on the firewall before final finish. I installed mistakenly next to booster, it can be done worked out fine.It’s supposed to be installed at the base of the steering column. I actually moved it after I realized I made the mistake of mounting it next to the booster. I’m going to move it back to where I put it because I like the amount of stroke vs the way they want it. Both would be fine. Way easier the way they want it installed. I got the kit because I’m doing so much I didn’t want to fart around with trying to figure if this master would work best with what hydr throw out bearing. Hope it helps

 

 

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Dennis

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My apologies, I didn't read your post carefully enough. You might contact the maker of the release bearing you are going to use to see if they can provide some in-sight as to what may work. Chuck

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Contact Modern Driveline. They don't list a kit for 71-73 bit, Ill bet they can figure it out

http://transmission.moderndriveline.com/speed/pc/1969-70-Mustang-Cougar-Hydraulic-Clutch-Master-Kit-LF-Series-Type-3-26p520.htm

Picture inside the link. Now about those bonus points.....   Chuck :P

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Contact Modern Driveline. They don't list a kit for 71-73 bit, Ill bet they can figure it out

http://transmission.moderndriveline.com/speed/pc/1969-70-Mustang-Cougar-Hydraulic-Clutch-Master-Kit-LF-Series-Type-3-26p520.htm

Picture inside the link. Now about those bonus points.....   Chuck :P

 

 

 

 

 

Sorry, no extra points, that's not your photo!  :D

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BE WARY of the American Powertrain solution. Yes it works, but it doesn't work correctly. I installed it in my car. In the correct location. Unfortunately, the throw of the pedal at the mounting location is greater than the throw of the master cylinder. So, if you mash the pedal to the floor, it will damage the master cylinder and the pedal will stay down. You'll have about $100-150 worth of parts to replace when this happens.

 

When I get around to it, I need to either change the mounting location or develop a bracket to convert the motion. If I had to do it all over again I would do one of two things:

 

1.) get all of the mechanical clutch parts and figure out a way to connect the mechanical clutch parts to the master cylinder, which I would mount somewhere on or near the transmission

 

2.) call modern driveline and see what they offer. One of the brackets in their other kits looks like what I'll need to develop to fix the geometry in the american powertrain version. http://transmission.moderndriveline.com/speed/pc/1964-5-66-Mustang-LF-Series-Hyd-Clutch-Master-Kit-26p516.htm (the J bracket in the photo below)

 

p1010013_2286_general.jpg

 

 

In short, the American Power train kit is GREAT in every aspect EXCEPT for matching the pedal alignment/ throw to the master cylinder. If anyone has solved this problem, I'd be happy to hear your solution.

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Following this as I'm really interested in doing a hydraulic conversion for my TKO 600. I get that there isn't a perfect kit out there to make this work but as the OP is asking...a detailed list of parts with install pics would be awesome.

www.puregemdetailing.com

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Following this as I'm really interested in doing a hydraulic conversion for my TKO 600. I get that there isn't a perfect kit out there to make this work but as the OP is asking...a detailed list of parts with install pics would be awesome.

www.puregemdetailing.com

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BE WARY of the American Powertrain solution. Yes it works, but it doesn't work correctly. I installed it in my car. In the correct location. Unfortunately, the throw of the pedal at the mounting location is greater than the throw of the master cylinder. So, if you mash the pedal to the floor, it will damage the master cylinder and the pedal will stay down. You'll have about $100-150 worth of parts to replace when this happens.

 

When I get around to it, I need to either change the mounting location or develop a bracket to convert the motion. If I had to do it all over again I would do one of two things:

 

1.) get all of the mechanical clutch parts and figure out a way to connect the mechanical clutch parts to the master cylinder, which I would mount somewhere on or near the transmission

 

2.) call modern driveline and see what they offer. One of the brackets in their other kits looks like what I'll need to develop to fix the geometry in the american powertrain version. http://transmission.moderndriveline.com/speed/pc/1964-5-66-Mustang-LF-Series-Hyd-Clutch-Master-Kit-26p516.htm (the J bracket in the photo below)

 

p1010013_2286_general.jpg

 

 

In short, the American Power train kit is GREAT in every aspect EXCEPT for matching the pedal alignment/ throw to the master cylinder. If anyone has solved this problem, I'd be happy to hear your solution.

 

I have used the American powertrain set up for almost 8 years ( I think) now with absolutely zero issues. Actually my car was used to design the one for the 71/73 setup.

c2.png

 

c1.jpg

 

c2.jpg

 

Stephen Leacock

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BE WARY of the American Powertrain solution. Yes it works, but it doesn't work correctly. I installed it in my car. In the correct location. Unfortunately, the throw of the pedal at the mounting location is greater than the throw of the master cylinder. So, if you mash the pedal to the floor, it will damage the master cylinder and the pedal will stay down. You'll have about $100-150 worth of parts to replace when this happens.

 

When I get around to it, I need to either change the mounting location or develop a bracket to convert the motion. If I had to do it all over again I would do one of two things:

 

1.) get all of the mechanical clutch parts and figure out a way to connect the mechanical clutch parts to the master cylinder, which I would mount somewhere on or near the transmission

 

2.) call modern driveline and see what they offer. One of the brackets in their other kits looks like what I'll need to develop to fix the geometry in the american powertrain version. http://transmission.moderndriveline.com/speed/pc/1964-5-66-Mustang-LF-Series-Hyd-Clutch-Master-Kit-26p516.htm (the J bracket in the photo below)

 

p1010013_2286_general.jpg

 

 

In short, the American Power train kit is GREAT in every aspect EXCEPT for matching the pedal alignment/ throw to the master cylinder. If anyone has solved this problem, I'd be happy to hear your solution.

 

I have used the American powertrain set up for almost 8 years ( I think) now with absolutely zero issues. Actually my car was used to design the one for the 71/73 setup.

c2.png

 

c1.jpg

 

c2.jpg

 

Stephen Leacock

 

 

 

 

 

 

@Tnafastbk , yes I remember. I messaged you about the installation of your unit when we were installing it in my car. If I remember correctly you "got used to the pedal feeling", but you have the same issue.

 

As I said, the system works fine if you get used to it, but you just can't hand the keys to your car over to someone else. And if someone mashes the pedal to the floor (as is typically done with clutches), stuff is bent and and damaged.

 

If that's not the case, I'd really love to see exactly how your pedal is connected and take some measurements (mark the rod at the master cylinder with the pedal all the way up and all the way down, then measure the two). It's possible that since Gray was personally working on your car, that he did something different that didn't make it into the kit. I had a few problems getting the exact parts needed from american powertrain.

 

Here is an image that I took from the installation in my car.  You can see the bracket holding the master cylinder and the rod connecting to the pedal stop bracket.

 

IMG_3212.jpg

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There is a jam nut supposed to be used to keep from damaging the master from over stroking. I tried to attach a pdf of the installation instructions.Message me and I’ll try to send it through messaging or email if you want it. I can’t remember but I think I called modern driveline and they told me no dice they had nothing in kit form but don’t quote me. I did get my clutch pedal from them so I know we talked about it.

 

 

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Dennis

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BE WARY of the American Powertrain solution. Yes it works, but it doesn't work correctly. I installed it in my car. In the correct location. Unfortunately, the throw of the pedal at the mounting location is greater than the throw of the master cylinder. So, if you mash the pedal to the floor, it will damage the master cylinder and the pedal will stay down. You'll have about $100-150 worth of parts to replace when this happens.

 

When I get around to it, I need to either change the mounting location or develop a bracket to convert the motion. If I had to do it all over again I would do one of two things:

 

1.) get all of the mechanical clutch parts and figure out a way to connect the mechanical clutch parts to the master cylinder, which I would mount somewhere on or near the transmission

 

2.) call modern driveline and see what they offer. One of the brackets in their other kits looks like what I'll need to develop to fix the geometry in the american powertrain version. http://transmission.moderndriveline.com/speed/pc/1964-5-66-Mustang-LF-Series-Hyd-Clutch-Master-Kit-26p516.htm (the J bracket in the photo below)

 

p1010013_2286_general.jpg

 

 

In short, the American Power train kit is GREAT in every aspect EXCEPT for matching the pedal alignment/ throw to the master cylinder. If anyone has solved this problem, I'd be happy to hear your solution.

 

I have used the American powertrain set up for almost 8 years ( I think) now with absolutely zero issues. Actually my car was used to design the one for the 71/73 setup.

c2.png

 

c1.jpg

 

c2.jpg

 

Stephen Leacock

 

 

 

 

 

 

@Tnafastbk , yes I remember. I messaged you about the installation of your unit when we were installing it in my car. If I remember correctly you "got used to the pedal feeling", but you have the same issue.

 

As I said, the system works fine if you get used to it, but you just can't hand the keys to your car over to someone else. And if someone mashes the pedal to the floor (as is typically done with clutches), stuff is bent and and damaged.

 

If that's not the case, I'd really love to see exactly how your pedal is connected and take some measurements (mark the rod at the master cylinder with the pedal all the way up and all the way down, then measure the two). It's possible that since Gray was personally working on your car, that he did something different that didn't make it into the kit. I had a few problems getting the exact parts needed from american powertrain.

 

Here is an image that I took from the installation in my car.  You can see the bracket holding the master cylinder and the rod connecting to the pedal stop bracket.

 

IMG_3212.jpg

 

PM me your info and I will pass it along to Gray and see if he will help you out over the phone.

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There is a jam nut supposed to be used to keep from damaging the master from over stroking. I tried to attach a pdf of the installation instructions.Message me and I’ll try to send it through messaging or email if you want it. I can’t remember but I think I called modern driveline and they told me no dice they had nothing in kit form but don’t quote me. I did get my clutch pedal from them so I know we talked about it.

 

 

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Dennis,

 

If you look at my photo and the one that tnafastbk posted, the area right behind the master cylinder is unthreaded for quite a while. There's no suitable place for a jam nut.  Mounting it on the firewall as you have, you've corrected the geometry in the original kit by moving the attachment point slightly upwards toward the fulcrum point of the pedal, thereby reducing the overall amount of clutch pushrod travel. (this is also an option I'm considering )

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39b84248f8f7408daa880fb058e93c2a.jpg

 

If you look close at this picture. I had to move the connection point up . You can see where I welded it to start with. it acted like it was dragging on the inside of the cylinder a bit at the lower location. Another mistake, confession is good for the soul I guess. When I moved it up I drilled through the pedal and used a seat belt bolt for my attachment rod. I tig welded both sides of the pedal then.I wish I could tell you it works perfectly at that spot but it will be 2-3 months before engine and trans are in to get the final feel, sorry.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Dennis

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I just had a discussion with Gray.  (Thanks @TnaFastbk)

 

For those of you who don't know, Gray was a partner at American Powertrain and is the designer of the kit for the 71-73 mustangs. You can see him in the photos that @tnafastbk posted. We talked about the travel issue, and he recommended two things that could help resolve the issue:

 

1.) The pivot point of the master cylinder bracket, should be loose. This allows the master cylinder to swing as the pedal (and rod) travel in an arc, and it maintains rod alignment with the master cylinder. The set screw, on the side of that bracket, should not be used.

 

2.) using a hood stop bumper, (which typically has a long threaded rod), you can attach the bumper on the support section of the pedal, and use the bumper to adjust the pedal height. Doing so, in combination with the rod adjustment, will allow you to move the overall travel of the pedal "down" toward the floor.

 

3.) moving the attachment point of the heim up on the pedal will reduce the overall rod travel (increases the ratio), and should fix this problem. This can be done either by drilling a hole on the pedal itself (as Dennis has done), or by flipping the bracket around so that it faces up (ie, may have to manufacture a special bracket here).

 

 

Gray is still in the business. His company is now Apex Drivetrain(www.apexdrivetrain.com), and he can be reached at gray@apexdrivetrain.com . He is the only reason that I purchased the kit from american powertrain, and I was sad to hear that he had left american powertrain. I'm glad he's still  in the business and I encourage anyone looking for drivetrain  / clutch components for our cars to reach out to him. He's a great guy and he stands by his product.

 

I won't have time to try these changes out for a while, but I'm looking forward to it next time I get a chance.

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rsz_clutch_099.jpg

 

I used the Wilwood 260-1304 and a Mcleod MCL-1304 bearing in 2005.  Works fine except the pedal only has to be pushed in a couple inches to engage the clutch.  No adjustment.  I installed the clutch master cylinder the same height as the brake master cylinder.  This puts the cylinder rod connection point 2 inches below the pedal pivot point.  The ratio is determined by measuring from the center of pivot point to the center of pedal pad, which is 12.75 inches.  12.75 divided by 2 is 6.37 ratio.  The target ratio is 6.1, so I was off a little bit. The full stroke of the master cylinder is 1.4 inches.  Full pedal travel to the floor will be about 1.25 inches of stroke, so no chance of overstroke. The placement of the connection point on the pedal arm is important as this will affect the up and down axial movement of the push rod. This is a very smooth clutch with about the same pressure as stock.  I always wondered what a 1/2 inch cylinder instead of a 3/4 inch would be like.  I was never sure if removing the assist spring was the right thing to do.  If I wasn't in such a big hurry, I would have installed bearings.  Maybe next time.

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Thanks to everyone who has replied so far......I have learned more in this thread than in all the searching I did before I made the original post.

 

Hopefully anyone and everyone with additional information will jump into the discussion.

 

 

Just sent an e-mail to Apex to see if they have any good info/suggestions.

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DB12521_C_D5_DD_48_E4_80_CB_36_F2_E102_D24_B.jpg

 

B391_D25_A_FA18_4617_A305_A94_E9_F5_C7264.jpg

 

I also used the American Powertrain kit. I installed mine high on the pedal and minted the master cylinder next to the brake booster. I have included pics. These pics are when I first installed the kit and since then have the engine and trans in the car. I really like the location I chose. It looks like it fits there and since the push rod is mounted high on the pedal, I will get smooth operation and I have not bottomed out the master cylinder. I will use the hood bumper idea, just haven’t gotten around to it.

John

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I'm still waiting for a reply from Apex but a new and maybe better idea has entered the picture!

 

A buddy called yesterday and asked if I could come by his shop and help for a few minutes. I was walking through his shop and noticed a clutch/brake pedal assembly laying in the floor and asked him what it was for......he said it was for a 2011 mustang. Later in the day, I got to thinking about the assembly and thought it might hold the perfect solution to the 71-73 mustang clutch master cylinder problem I am working on.

 

I went back today and took a bunch of measurements and photos......my conclusion........I believe this clutch master cylinder is a simple and ridiculously easy solution. For those who don't know, on these cars, the clutch master is mounted to the pedal assembly under the dash. From what I can tell, the same master is used from 2005 to at least 2014, so they are common and relatively inexpensive. 

 

 

GHTuZaM.jpg

 

I took the clutch/brake pedal assembly for the '73 with me and did some measuring and comparison. I measured the distance from the clutch pedal pivot to the pin for the master cylinder, the overall length of the master cylinder and piston rod, the stroke length and the angle of the master cylinder mounting. 

 

Everything I have seen so far tells me that a simple bracket is all it would take to mount this master cylinder to the pedal assembly for the '73. Mounting the master cylinder under the dash will allow retention of the factory brake booster and access to the clutch master for service should be easier on the '73 than on the 2011. 

 

I still need to do some research to find out if this master cylinder will put out the correct volume of fluid for the hydraulic throwout bearing I will be using (4th gen GM f-body T56)......if that proves to be compatible, I will move forward with building the bracket to mount the cylinder, drilling the clutch pedal at the correct location and making a pin and spacer to attach the piston rod. I will try to document everything for those who are interested.

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