To 4v your '72 Cleveland or not to 4v, that's the question.

Below are the casting numbers of a set of late 1969, 351C, 4v, closed chamber heads I found this past summer. There's also a stock 4v, spread bore cast iron intake for the heads but they don't match with numbers. This car will never be a Concourse car while I own it. Money required doesn't match evenly with my age unless we won the lottery, then I'll just find one that's already done. Lol.

Anyhow, I've been on the fence about doing this and we've been more focused with the effort of locating some of the original items that were cannibalized when the car was auctioned in 2006. The other issue is, our 2017 Fusion Energi Platinum PCM bit the dust 21 November 2022. We're so lucky to have fallen victim to the auto chip issues plaguing thousands of new vehicles and owners of ones that need repair. Ford has no idea when one will be available and we're getting rumblings they possibly will not be available until the end of 2023 or beginning of 2024. The only possible thing we have in our favor is the number of Platinum Energi's produced is low so on that list, there are few needed. Programing for those PCM's is unique when compared to the remaining vehicles that need them. We might just get lucky and it's only August when one comes available. (Said with only a slight sarcastic tone.)

Needless to say, the '72 is being pressed into use as an "almost daily" driver. Not even close to what we wanted but renting a car to replace the regular driver is definitely cost prohibitive. Cheapest was 109 per day and while Ford can possibly pay $45 per day, that leaves $54 in the balance or $1600 per month. We have a payment still so, not happening.

In the end, this means that any engine work will need to be kicked down the road and more important/ critical repairs to be performed now. This has caused me to second guess the 4v and maybe sale the setup so we can make the mounting cost of repairs more affordable.

The only thing stopping me is, the heads are bought and paid for sitting in my garage now. If I were to sell them, may never get a chance at another set and if I do, it's a possibility they will be out of reach cost wise.


That leaves the dilemma of, sell or not? Thoughts please?

Iv got a complete 70 351 4v motor 50k miles all manifolds standard spread intake never been apart minus carb dist 1500

California 72 said:

Below are the casting numbers of a set of late 1969, 351C, 4v, closed chamber heads I found this past summer. There's also a stock 4v, spread bore cast iron intake for the heads but they don't match with numbers. This car will never be a Concourse car while I own it. Money required doesn't match evenly with my age unless we won the lottery, then I'll just find one that's already done. Lol.

Anyhow, I've been on the fence about doing this and we've been more focused with the effort of locating some of the original items that were cannibalized when the car was auctioned in 2006. The other issue is, our 2017 Fusion Energi Platinum PCM bit the dust 21 November 2022. We're so lucky to have fallen victim to the auto chip issues plaguing thousands of new vehicles and owners of ones that need repair. Ford has no idea when one will be available and we're getting rumblings they possibly will not be available until the end of 2023 or beginning of 2024. The only possible thing we have in our favor is the number of Platinum Energi's produced is low so on that list, there are few needed. Programing for those PCM's is unique when compared to the remaining vehicles that need them. We might just get lucky and it's only August when one comes available. (Said with only a slight sarcastic tone.)

Needless to say, the '72 is being pressed into use as an "almost daily" driver. Not even close to what we wanted but renting a car to replace the regular driver is definitely cost prohibitive. Cheapest was 109 per day and while Ford can possibly pay $45 per day, that leaves $54 in the balance or $1600 per month. We have a payment still so, not happening.

In the end, this means that any engine work will need to be kicked down the road and more important/ critical repairs to be performed now. This has caused me to second guess the 4v and maybe sale the setup so we can make the mounting cost of repairs more affordable.

The only thing stopping me is, the heads are bought and paid for sitting in my garage now. If I were to sell them, may never get a chance at another set and if I do, it's a possibility they will be out of reach cost wise.


That leaves the dilemma of, sell or not? Thoughts please?


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Costs... The heads you have there before considering install should get machine shop attention. Corrosion in photos is not terrible, but not installable either without work.

Last two sets of "good" heads I had one 351C 4V and one vintage 302, budget around $1,000 to get them ready.

Then consider exhaust, your current 2V exhaust, the ports, way smaller than the 4V heads you have there, so open the checkbook again for manifolds. Oh and the hunt for good ones.

spdbk1 said:

Iv got a complete 70 351 4v motor 50k miles all manifolds standard spread intake never been apart minus carb dist 1500

Click to expand...

Makes the above offer free in retrospect, but then there is an engine swap.

Next question, why go to a 4V setup? For street use, the 2V is likely a much better solution. Gas mileage with the 4V was rated new at 8mpg. Ugh...

I went the 4V route as that is what the car was new, had to buy heads as they were missing, looking back probably better off aftermarket manifold and carb and 2V heads.

Good luck on your decision.

California 72 said:

Below are the casting numbers of a set of late 1969, 351C, 4v, closed chamber heads I found this past summer. There's also a stock 4v, spread bore cast iron intake for the heads but they don't match with numbers. This car will never be a Concourse car while I own it. Money required doesn't match evenly with my age unless we won the lottery, then I'll just find one that's already done. Lol.

Anyhow, I've been on the fence about doing this and we've been more focused with the effort of locating some of the original items that were cannibalized when the car was auctioned in 2006. The other issue is, our 2017 Fusion Energi Platinum PCM bit the dust 21 November 2022. We're so lucky to have fallen victim to the auto chip issues plaguing thousands of new vehicles and owners of ones that need repair. Ford has no idea when one will be available and we're getting rumblings they possibly will not be available until the end of 2023 or beginning of 2024. The only possible thing we have in our favor is the number of Platinum Energi's produced is low so on that list, there are few needed. Programing for those PCM's is unique when compared to the remaining vehicles that need them. We might just get lucky and it's only August when one comes available. (Said with only a slight sarcastic tone.)

Needless to say, the '72 is being pressed into use as an "almost daily" driver. Not even close to what we wanted but renting a car to replace the regular driver is definitely cost prohibitive. Cheapest was 109 per day and while Ford can possibly pay $45 per day, that leaves $54 in the balance or $1600 per month. We have a payment still so, not happening.

In the end, this means that any engine work will need to be kicked down the road and more important/ critical repairs to be performed now. This has caused me to second guess the 4v and maybe sale the setup so we can make the mounting cost of repairs more affordable.

The only thing stopping me is, the heads are bought and paid for sitting in my garage now. If I were to sell them, may never get a chance at another set and if I do, it's a possibility they will be out of reach cost wise.


That leaves the dilemma of, sell or not? Thoughts please?


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I am a fan of the 4V heads but if it is a car you just want to drive and enjoy you might want to stay with 2V heads and save a lot of extra money and effort. You could sell the 4V heads and apply that cash to the aftermarket intake for a four barrel carb to fit the 2V heads. I put a cam and intake and carb and headers on my 73 Mach 1 2V back in high school and it performed really well, a noticeable improvement over the stock 2V engine.
That being said, have you reached out to Ford consumer affairs about the Fusion being grounded waiting for parts? Is the car at a Ford dealership? If you call the consumer affairs hotline there may be more assistance that Ford corporate can extend to you. I ran dealership service and parts departments for thirty plus years and was often surprised what the manufacturer's consumer affairs departments have done for customers as goodwill gestures. I have seen them cover rental over their normal rate when the customer proves they simply cannot rent a car in their area for the rental allowance granted. I have also seen them give purchase credits to the customers to upgrade them in to a new car, so it is as affordable as what they own, to rebuild your brand loyalty. There are a lot of options at their disposal to help customers, remember the squeaky wheel gets the grease. If you have been a long time Ford customer make sure to tell them that. If you have owned multiple Fords let them know, if you bought this car or other Fords brand new let them know. If you have been loyal you want to make sure they are aware of your loyalty. Manufacturers want to keep loyal people loyal, they are in the business of selling cars and want you to keep buying their product. An owner who has purchased multiple new Fords will get more offered to them than one that bought their late model Ford used at Car Max. I would call and see what they can do to help you, it can't hurt. I am sure there is an 800 number for Ford's consumer affairs hotline.

Actually, been trying to reach my case manager for Ford. Hava an extension and still can't reach them. I just keep getting someone that take a message and states they'll get back to me. Being really, I mean REALLY patient with this matter. I really will need them to step up, and soon. Granted much of what I do encompasses a Charitable organization and mostly volunteer, I'm not getting anything done.

Let's list'em;

A '66 Mustang, '71 Cougar XR7, '84 EXP (yeah, two dumb things in a row! Trading in the '71 to buy the '84), '97 Ranger, '99 Ranger. 04 Sport-trac, '09 Fusion Hybrid, '17 Fusion Energi Platinum, '72 Mustang; Yeah, I've owned a couple Fords. I can go all the way back to my grandfather owning a 1918-19 Model T and then a 1926 Model A (both real-time not collectables), leading up to a '76 Granada.

The idea behind going with the 4v upgrade was purely nostalgia based but then thought is I could do just a mild, almost stock rebuild of the Cleveland, it was going to be a great thing to pass on to our daughter. The plates are actually her initials. Then again, 20 years from now they may have real, flesh and blood horses pulling them around not the ones under the hood.

I just remember someone saying somewhere in the past, build a muscle car and own a boat so you'll have a really fancy anchor to keep that big hole in the water from floating away.

In a complete 180 about the 4v, plans for the heads swap had to take an about face and while there are only two on record, it's become very apparent that we are forced to deal with the decisions of the previous owner(s) once again! .

Yesterday, while on a late afternoon jaunt down Rt. 60, by the way, it really is two lanes of traffic in both directs that as long as there isn't a wreck somewhere between Richmond and Williamsburg on I-64, is an absolute blissful experience to drive. Almost as enjoyable as Colonial Parkway between Jamestown and Yorktown.

Anyhow, back to the new challenge. The OEM carb just decided it had enough. Actually, it's me who's decided enough but a decision had to be made. The need for a decisions to change the carb took center stage because of the use of ethanol mixed fuels being the main culprit. The carb just couldn't take the abuse of sitting idle for almost 3 years and not being prepped properly. The decision was made to go with a 500cfm Holley 2300EC 2v. Really thought about a EFI but the expense and reviews didn't allow the thought to launch.

I get it, real gas is expensive and difficult to locate but even the use of the stabilizers doesn't do these cars any justice. My guess is, it's the reaction of some of these older materials in the cars that suffer no matter what. Between the gum and corrosive nature of things, carbs don't have a chance. Plus, their blending so much water into fuel, without sophisticated controls like those on leat model cars, an old Cleveland or any motor just doesn't "like"them.

We have avoided using anything but ethanol free fuels the entire time we've owned the vehicle and if we run into a situation when we're cruising, we do keep a bottle of the fuel treatment but in the end, the cost doesn't equate. If we were to add the 4v, even just a simple and temporary swap with a combo kit, it's still five bucks a gallon for a car that gets maybe 10mpg on a steep slope with a tail-wind. T

The 4v heads and manifold upgrade will remain a possibility but it's cost in the short-term has made it impossible. For now, I'm committed to keep them with the car even if we sell. We'll see how the new carb works and as long as it remains as fun to drive as it is now, the swap will definitely need to be done when we pull the engine.

When I found my '71 Mach 1"H" code 2v, the previous owner had already swapped over to a 4v set-up, using the '70 iron intake and an AFB. I bought it in 1990. It ran pretty darned good like that for being basically stock. Years later, as gas prices started to climb, and as it was my only car, I considered switching over to a stock 2v set-up, hoping I could get markedly better mileage. I eventually did make the swap back to the factory 2v, but my mileage didn't increase really, maybe a mile per gallon. I went through the 2 barrel carb and jetted down two steps in an attempt to bring my MPG numbers up. Again nothing really improved to saying it was worth it. It was way back then that I installed the triggered ignition as well to help out with the tune. The car ran great, but still getting basically the same MPG.
So, fast forward to today. I've been driving and towing on a regular basis ever since with the 2v just fine, however, I re-built the engine 20 years ago and am currently assembling a whole 'nuther engine for my car. I am going to put a 4 barrel on again, along with some improvements to oiling and chamber quench ( I'll be using stock Aussie heads and dished pistons). I feel like, what the hell, if I'm going to get about the same mileage running the 4 v, I may as well run it and potentially get a power improvement.

My Mach 1 is a factory H code. I left the 2v (small port) heads on it and replaced the inlet manifold with a Ford cast 4 barrel square bore inlet manifold (as used on Australian built 351 Clevelands in 74/75). I replaced the factory 2 barrel motorcraft carb with a 4300 Motorcraft. Had the jets set up for the factory cam and 2v - small port heads. While the car is no race car with the factory FMX and 2.75 diff, the engine breaths sooo much better and gets up and goes unlike it did with the 2 barrel manifold. Very happy with the results of just replacing the carb and inlet manifold on the factory 2v heads.

I saw a U-tube video of a guy dyno-ing a 2-v vs a 4-v Cleveland. Both had 4v carbs and manifolds. Result was the 2v heads built torque way earlier in the rpm range than the big valve 4-v. Conclusion: Expect the 2v heads to feel stronger on the street. Use the canted valve heads only if you frequent the track. Plus 2v should be better on gas use.

I believe this is true as long as you don't go crazy with the carb. CFM. Mine runs very strong with a 600CFM vacuum secondary Holley.

They are both canted valve heads and I've run both with efi. I can tell you with a mild roller cam those closed chambered 4v heads don't have a flatspot that I've ever experienced and pull hard to 6800 rpm with my setup. Nothing wrong with 2 v heads however there's no denying the 4v head.

If I don’t sell my 2V then I’m going 4V with 2V heads and hotter cam.

Using this topic as a reference in a Classifieds ad "Wanted" post, I spent some time looking back over things. Much has changed since this time, even just 18 months later so why not add to the conversation of today.
I've been on the fence for quite a while about the suggestions of just sticking with the 2V heads and do a new induction setup. That is, until I recently started down the path of one-upmanship on myself with the stages of disassembly.
It was when I arrived at the timing chain and found it had skipped. Understanding the time had already been retarded at the factory for Calif. emissions, it was way out so, further inspection necessary.
It was huge seeing no piston/valve contact had happened, but it was the amount of carbon buildup that took the stage. In some cases, it was interfering with the valves closing and so, it came down to whether I wanted to sink money into these or the rarer 4V heads I already had.
It was the idea of also seeing the '71 flat top pistons and not the dished '72 version so, the closed chamber with that meant a higher and yes some would say, questionably better compression ratio based on fuel availability and cost.
Not being a daily driver and having access to 93 pure gasoline, why not. It's supposed to be the fun car, and it had some really nice features like ram-air, P/S, P/D/B, and being a convertible. All very complimentary to the new 4V induction system so, given it's intended purpose, the gas mileage increase wasn't enough to warrant ditching the 4V.
However, there is a good argument for the 2V upgrading to a new manifold being the engine does have better low-end responsiveness but that can also be achieved with the cam I've ultimately chosen for the 4V heads.
Plus, if I could get two grand or more for the heads when their finished, it might be worth considering selling them. However, they are also a part of my life's history and a great reminder of more fun times. As a caveat, not the actual heads themselves but the time when they were used.
While with the 4V heads the motors curve is flat, by racing standards, with the right choice in cams, you can achieve a decent band with. The one I've chosen is between 1500 and 5500 RPM. Coupled with it's being perfect in combination with the stock converter and a cleaning up of the FMX, it's also not too aggressive for the stock piston and the eyebrow cuts.
After checking out the motor, all it really needs is a refresh with new rings, bearings and seals. I certainly expected to find a beat-up old horse that needed at least .030 over and a more thorough going over. Although the tranny had a bit of coarse debris in the fluid, it was not metallic and so I'm thinking it's some heavier dirt that formed the grit.
At the end of things, it just became about what would sound better to myself when taking the Friday night drives. That's if I can ever get everything back together but that's a different story.
In the end, it's also nice to know what's under the hood. I seriously have reached that point where I'm not going to go out of my way to "cause myself trouble" so, street racing is completely out. Then again, it's not important if I use the punch, just knowing I have the punch is really nice.

BUCKWHEAT said:

I saw a U-tube video of a guy dyno-ing a 2-v vs a 4-v Cleveland. Both had 4v carbs and manifolds. Result was the 2v heads built torque way earlier in the rpm range than the big valve 4-v. Conclusion: Expect the 2v heads to feel stronger on the street. Use the canted valve heads only if you frequent the track. Plus 2v should be better on gas use.

Click to expand...

Also you have to remember you have to cam a 4V headed engine totally different than a 2V headed engine to retain some low speed torque no to mention compression difference

Barrysmach1 said:

Also you have to remember you have to cam a 4V headed engine totally different than a 2V headed engine to retain some low speed torque no to mention compression difference

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I'm in that stage now and after talking to my childhood friend who is probably one of the foremost authorities in the engine business, and with my best Vinnie Barbarino....I'm soooo confused!

The springs I ordered ahead of the cam were wrong for that cam. They also required machining the spring seats, an expense I was trying to avoid. They ended up being doubles and after he put the fear of grinding a cam to nothing in a matter of weeks with improperly matching with springs and scaring the shhhht outta me, I knee-jerked and found the doubles were wrong so I'm back to square one. He also mentioned something about shimming springs, measuring spring height, tension, overlap, binding, really, all aspects I remember from way back when but also can't remember how to do. I also pictured more machine work and extra funds that aren't there.

So, after an hour's worth of searching and my head exploding last night, I'm back at it again only this time I'm stopping just short of the explosion to post here. Need to function somewhat today and to blame it on covid brain would be rather accurate.

All I wanted to achieve was a very mild refresh with a decent lope and overall improved performance using as much basically stock components as possible.

So, if I wanted to find the same cam and springs set up that would fit a 2V Cleveland refitted with early '70 production heads and a guesstimated 10.75:1 cr
(61cc heads and '71 flat top pistons is why the guesstimate.) How the heck did we do this 45 years ago?
To expand just a hair on the above statement, only a bit stouter a setup than the Q or R code motor with hydraulic lifters. Trying to avoid the expense of machining for screw-in studs and adjustable rockers. I'm also not looking at the RPM's where 4 bolt mains are really needed, something I believe both those motors had. I'm certainly not in a position to have the block machined for them given this is my last hurrah for a performance classic 'Stang.

That's basically all I was hoping for but minus the weekends at the dragstrip or street grudge racing.

Let's start with what cam exactly do you have? Post a pic of the cam card.

A stock 71 short block with 62cc 70 4V heads will yield about 9.8:1 compression ratio. Ford's published CR numbers were a complete fabrication.

https://diamondracing.net/p-10-compression-calculator.html

Wow, isn't that a handy tool! Didn't realize the published numbers were that far off so that totally wipes out 47 years of perception versus reality. I'm trying to find the cam card since I've only saved the cam for purchase on Ebay and only bought just the valvetrain since the heads are at the shop being worked on.

Edit: It's the COMP Cams SK32-221-3 Dual Energy Hyd. Camshaft Kit, Fits Ford 351C/351M/400 and while below is only the cams specs, I'm looking at the kit, which includes everything up to the springs

Overview

Brand:
COMP Cams
Manufacturer's Part Number:
32-221-3
Part Type:
Camshafts
Product Line:
COMP Cams High Energy Camshafts
Summit Racing Part Number:
CCA-32-221-3
UPC:
036584500230
Cam Style:
Hydraulic flat tappet
Camshaft Use:
Street/Strip
Basic Operating RPM Range:
1,500-5,500
Intake Duration at 050 inch Lift:
218
Exhaust Duration at 050 inch Lift:
218
Duration at 050 inch Lift:
218 int./218 exh.
Advertised Intake Duration:
268
Advertised Exhaust Duration:
268
Advertised Duration:
268 int./268 exh.
Intake Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio:
0.494 in.
Exhaust Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio:
0.494 in.
Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio:
0.494 int./0.494 exh.
Lobe Separation (degrees):
110
Remanufactured:
No
Computer-Controlled Compatible:
No
Grind Number:
FC 268H-10
Valve Springs Required:
Yes
Quantity:
Sold individually.

Hemikiller, I'm also a little embarrassed by my lack of recall with things and the idea that we've been sort of "misled" by the actual numbers.

I also may need to apologize for maybe not stressing the pistons enough, but the car production date was 09/16/1971 and the engine being from late winter early spring (somewhere I have the numbers and confirmation but can't find it.) definitely has the flat-top pistons used in the '71 2V engine. Again, my understanding has been the '72 motors had a dished piston.
The only changes to the top are the relief cuts so I'm thinking the dish volume can't be 3cc's. That being the case, removing the 3cc's from the calculator, my new CR would be 10.21:1 and adding back in 1cc for the brows, if that's accurate, the CR becomes 10:1
That's also guessing Ford didn't change any of the numbers you input between the two years and while that would make sense, we are talking Ford here. We can all agree that, as much as we love their products of old like our mustangs, (I'm definitely a Frist On Race Day person and not the "other" meaning)"better ideas" was also humorous and ironic slogan.

9/16/71 would be a 72 model year engine, as production started usually the first week of August. Engines can be build weeks ahead of time. Ford didn't switch to dished pistons in the 351C until the 1973 model year, contrary to what's commonly passed around on the internet. The same flat top piston was used on all non-Boss/HO engines from 70 thru 72.

Yeah, it's a bit of a shock when you realize you've been believing marketing BS for as long as you've been into these cars. The first time I ran the actual numbers in a calculator, I must have checked it five times, then went to a couple other calculators and they popped out similar results.

The 3cc is for the dual valve reliefs in the factory piston. The 73-74 piston is reported to be an 8cc volume dish.

FWIW, your machinist is completely overthinking this project. That cam would work with stock factory 4V valve springs. I ran the factory springs with a Motorsport A341 cam that had .510/.536 lift and had plenty of room before coil bind. You're in the ballpark for cam profile, but I'd be very leery of anything Comp Cams and flat tappet. My preference would be a cam company that actually cares about their customers, so maybe look to Schneider, Lykins Motorsports or Howards.

Hemikiller said:

9/16/71 would be a 72 model year engine, as production started usually the first week of August. Engines can be build weeks ahead of time. Ford didn't switch to dished pistons in the 351C until the 1973 model year, contrary to what's commonly passed around on the internet. The same flat top piston was used on all non-Boss/HO engines from 70 thru 72.

Yeah, it's a bit of a shock when you realize you've been believing marketing BS for as long as you've been into these cars. The first time I ran the actual numbers in a calculator, I must have checked it five times, then went to a couple other calculators and they popped out similar results.

The 3cc is for the dual valve reliefs in the factory piston. The 73-74 piston is reported to be an 8cc volume dish.

FWIW, your machinist is completely overthinking this project. That cam would work with stock factory 4V valve springs. I ran the factory springs with a Motorsport A341 cam that had .510/.536 lift and had plenty of room before coil bind. You're in the ballpark for cam profile, but I'd be very leery of anything Comp Cams and flat tappet. My preference would be a cam company that actually cares about their customers, so maybe look to Schneider, Lykins Motorsports or Howards.

Click to expand...

Hemikiller, thanks again, and agin, and again. I greatly appreciate your insights as you seem to be there with some decent approaches.

I have to admit, it wasn't the bind so much as floating a valve should I "push that envelope" mistakenly or even goofing around a bit. After all, while it's great to know for certain what's under the hood when a kid pulls up next to you, it should be "exercised" once in a while, right?

I also just learned the engine has been gone over already. I just finished cleaning them and when I took a pic of the piston to post (below) the enlarged image on my computer showed they're already .030 over. The arrow kinda threw me as being aftermarket but I wasn't jumping past the stock conclusion. Too much exercise to go much further.

Anyhow, this new flubistering development disorder I'm having is making me reconniption this whole project. In a way, if I need to take this much further than I've already planned, it's gonna be a while before the street and the car meet again. It's not like we don't already have a grotesque amount of funds needing to be invest in repairs to our 3-year-old house! Son of a *%^&ing @#%$&!! (slight knee-jerk over reaction again ) I'll come back into orbit sooner or later, I guess. Just really wasn't expecting this.

Edit: Well? the motor will be out and while it's hanging on the stand, might as well do whatever is needed. Given the rarity of our cars not going away any time soon, this is a bit more of an investment than it would have been back in the '70's and early '80's.
If was the same back then, I'd still have my '66 notch back and '71 Cougar XR-7