2v power?

[cazsper]

I'm not trying to start a 2v vs 4v thread at all. The general consensus is that if you want to build "big power" with a Cleveland, you need 4v heads but for "mild street" performance, you should get the 2v heads.

First, what is "big power" vs mild street performance? Is 400hp mild where 500hp is "big"?

I would like to know if anyone has built a 2v Cleveland with the goal of making big power and been happy with the outcome.

 

[Widowmaker00]

I'm not trying to start a 2v vs 4v thread at all. The general consensus is that if you want to build "big power" with a Cleveland, you need 4v heads but for "mild street" performance, you should get the 2v heads.

First, what is "big power" vs mild street performance? Is 400hp mild where 500hp is "big"?

I would like to know if anyone has built a 2v Cleveland with the goal of making big power and been happy with the outcome.

"Big power" is entirely opinion. I have a low compression 4v motor that I would definitely consider mild. You can make decent power with either heads, both do fine on the street. Someone here can steer you in a better direction than I can.

400 hp is a lot more than most people think.

 

[marks73]

+1 to that. It's strictly a matter of how hard you want to be pushed back into your seat.

 

[hyena429]

Anything that is 400 hp and more i consider big power on the street...2v and 4v heads both make great power..and always a big fight over the 2 dif heads..I know one guy on here will be able to tell you the diffrence...He ran both heads...He originaly built a 2v motor and raced "cant remmeber if it was freind or family" against a mildy rodded 5.0 mustang..And got beat...He built a 4v motor next...Same carb i believe he ran on his 2v and beat the same car badly..

2v stops at 5500ish RPM's...4v heads can run up too 6,500 too 7,000 rpm and still want to pull more...So if you put the same gears in both cars "2v and 4v" The 4v will be able to go faster on the top end sence it can run higher RPM plus it makes most of its power on top end....So a guy with a 4v motor can run lower gears to make up for any loss of low end power and still have a decent top end speed due too the high RPM's the 4v motors can handle

Too me its like comparing apples and oranges...A 2v can be impressive....With porting and some head work it will stand on it's own and kick some arse...But in all out racing..I give the advantage too a 4v motor.

 

[cazsper]

Well, I have a 1978 Bronco that I am getting rid of but it has a 400M. The heads if I remember, are 2v open chamber heads. I am just curious if they are worth keeping. Also, If I can get enough people interested, I thought of making a "chart" that shows how to build up a Cleveland with a specific horsepower in mind. I found a 460 forum and they have a chart that shows how to build anywhere from 300-700 hp and gives specific info such as:

Compression

Heads

Cam specs

Intake

Carb size

Exhaust

RPM range

Redline

Horsepower (example 400-425)

I just wasn't sure if anyone here would be interested.

 

[hyena429]

http://www.projectbronco.com/Technical_Articles/351m400_performance_build_up.htm good read on them

400m was a great truck motor...My brother had one in his 78 f250...Could not kill it...But from what i see...400m heads kinda the worst head to start off with for performance build on 351m or Cleveland....very big open chamber...Low compression...With some work im sure they can make good power like any thou.

 

[Widowmaker00]

http://www.network54.com/Forum/263038/

Here are a bunch of different cleveland builds to get an idea of what each heads are capable of. Also aftermarket heads, aussie heads, etc.

 

[Mister 4x4]

I think Doc will be a good one to answer this one (unless he found some 4V heads - I think I remember him talking about that awhile back).

He and I have similar builds on our 351C-2Vs. I think mine's going to have a few different things than his, but they should be pretty close.

Mine:

9.5:1 Keith Black Hypereutectic flat-tops

CompCams 274/274 @ .566" lift roller cam (218/218@ .500" lift)

CompCams High Energy roller lifters

CompCams High Energy 1.73 roller rockers

Edelbrock Performer intake (2750)

Edelbrock Performer 600CFM carb

3-angle valve job & hardened seats (rebuilt the stock 2V heads)

Canton windage tray

Chrome 'stock' oil pan

Duraspark II ignition system

Accel Super Coil & 8mm plug wires

Hooker Competition Ceramic-coated Long-Tube Headers

Pypes 2.5" stainless exhaust w/X-pipe - Pypes Street Pro mufflers

According to CompCams CamQuest utility, my set-up should be good for 400-ish - most likely at the crank... and that's just an estimate.

I think Doc went with a Holley carb, MSD ignition stuff, might've gone with stock (non-roller) rockers.

My engine has yet to be fired up (still working out the wiring stuff), but Doc's has been tried and tested... and it's a beast! There's nothing wrong with a 2V, if you ask me. Everything I've heard, if you're looking to drive it mildly and have some occasional fun, a mild performance build will get you there. If you're looking to have serious fun (involving a track of some kind), then the 4V will rev higher and quicker, depending on the build.

 

[72HCODE]

i kind of went through this myself.

basically big power:

the motor is HORRIBLE when cold, takes a while to warm up and stop stalling out constantly.

Very low vacuum, makes accessories a problem, like climate control.

no vacuum advance usually, makes MPG even worse.

overheating in traffic.

high stall makes driving at low speed nerve racking in heavy traffic.

mild street power means basically you can have you cake and eat it to. you get some more power but the car is behaved and more of a joy to drive.

V2 heads make more power on the low rpm end which is what you want for constant stop and go.

V4 make more power on the high rpm end, like doing laps at daytona full out at over 130 mph.

I started out with a 500 HP motor in another car it was a bad experience. lot of problems based on temperature, one day its fine the next day horrible. constantly having to adjust things. constantly checking things,problems with idle, stall outs at the wrong time. on the highway moving over 1500 rpm it was fine. the low vacuum was a huge pain as well.

I now have a V2 motor with V4 heads making 300+ HP and it is still a pain sometimes but at least having a good 17" of HG at idle helps. I personally want to ditch my open chamber v4 heads for closed chamber with higher compression. or go back to V2 heads and gain on the low end, under 1200rpms its lazy. over 1500 it will scream to 5000rpms.

you can build REALLY awesome under 300 HP 2V motors a lot of guys like the 302 more the 302 is a lot more peppy overall and great for the street. the 351 is a lazy motor in general on the low rpm end then it builds.

you can compensate wtih the rear end. 351 you see guys runing 3.5-4.11 gears... 302 you see guys running 3-3.5 ratios, since the 302 has enough on the low end to pull the taller gears and the 351 has it on the high rpm side so it needs a little more help getting off the line.

a well put together 351 V2 is so nice compared to a racing V4 motor even on paper if it says the 2v makes 400HP less i'd rather take the V2

 

[turtle5353]

My last motor was a 2v and it would run very well. I had the heads machined and ported pretty good. Ran a roller rocker setup. Rpm intake longtube headers, holley 750 dp, msd probillet ignition, and a healthy comp cam and it was estimated around 400-425 hp and it was a ton of fun on the street. I was also running a 3000 stall converter in a built c4 trans and 373 gears. I had my rev limiter set at 6000-6100 rpm but usually shifted around 5800. To me this was a GREAT street setup. It would smoke the tires any time it was asked and still had decent manners in traffic. My new motor is going to be a totally different beast. Running AFD aluminum heads with a complete roller top end, torquer intake and all the other bells and whistles. It will be well north of 500hp. Anywhere between 550-600. So once i get it back we will see how it behaves on the road. The machine shop asked how i wanted it, I told him I want it stupid but not too stupid on the street. He said he understands completely. Talked to him today and the way its set up i would be in the 11.25 to 1 compression. Too much for street and pump gas, so we are going to get thicker head gaskets to get it to 10ish?? But anyhow, I will soon see how a built 4v aluminum headed 408 stroker cleveland behaves on the street and let you know

 

[wwhite72]

Imho, the reason for this 50yr debate is because real people have had different success with what they thought were similiar heads. Unfortunately for us fans, the Ford people didnt really make it clear what every head and intake was designed to do. For example, we know that the 4v and 2v had different sized ports. Yes, of course. But the chamber sizes varied among the 4v and 2v as well. This is a result of fed mandated fuel changes in the 70's, and resulting lower compression rated designs fom the factory. Throw in the fact that some racing designs were available thru dealers, and the boss 302 used hybrid cleveland heads, and that there were parts made for Pantera Clevelands, not to mention the Australian designs that also fit, and since Holley was a Ford partner since 1908, and Shelby also made some parts available, especially intakes, and you have such an insane number of factors and designs available that it is impossible to say that 100% of the time a 2v will do this and a 4v will do that. "Quench" is a big part of the confusion, as is torque. Want to roar at 7000rpm in a circle for 4 hours? Go 4v. Want to smoke your tires in a straight line on the street at weekend meets? 2v could be much better, depends on your intake. There are some heads to completely avoid of course: the 2v open chambers were always prone to detonation, and overheating, and basically are thought of as junk. But could be brought to life by a talented speed shop port and valve job. The 4v's have been accused of being dead below 3000rpm with the wrong intake, but i have seen filler tongues installed that claims to increase torque without sacrificing huge hp numbers up at the crazy rpm's clevelands are capable of. So, it's hard to say...


I can offer some real personal experience on so called Aussie head distributors here in the US. Do not do business with Ralph at Powerheads in California. He owes me a lot of money.

 

[mach71351c]

Anything that is 400 hp and more i consider big power on the street...2v and 4v heads both make great power..and always a big fight over the 2 dif heads..I know one guy on here will be able to tell you the diffrence...He ran both heads...He originaly built a 2v motor and raced "cant remmeber if it was freind or family" against a mildy rodded 5.0 mustang..And got beat...He built a 4v motor next...Same carb i believe he ran on his 2v and beat the same car badly..

2v stops at 5500ish RPM's...4v heads can run up too 6,500 too 7,000 rpm and still want to pull more...So if you put the same gears in both cars "2v and 4v" The 4v will be able to go faster on the top end sence it can run higher RPM plus it makes most of its power on top end....So a guy with a 4v motor can run lower gears to make up for any loss of low end power and still have a decent top end speed due too the high RPM's the 4v motors can handle

Too me its like comparing apples and oranges...A 2v can be impressive....With porting and some head work it will stand on it's own and kick some arse...But in all out racing..I give the advantage too a 4v motor.

It was my brothers BONE stock 85 GT.

 

[hyena429]

It was my brothers BONE stock 85 GT.

Ohh yes...It was you who told that story...Which i think is great information ..Plus you have lived and owned with both versions...4V and 2v...I have not...I only had my 4v which i find no issues with low end in town..Nor do i find any issue with buring my tires down the road at will."my 620 dollar ticket is proof of that 80 foot of rubber"..But i wont slam on the 2v..i think its a great motor...But alot of peope think 4vs no good in town...I think dif, and i blown the doors off plenty of 65ish 302 mustangs at the street lights with my stock old 4v...Long as you know the sweet spots...She revs up fast and takes off in beast mode..lol

 

[73vertproject]

I love the 2V vs 4V discussions, especially when engineering data is introduced into the debate. I learn more each time it comes up.

Eric (4x4) knows my build almost better than I do. I have factory rockers with hydraulic lifters. And have a brand new Pertronix 2 (and a gifted used Pertronix 2) sitting on my workbench, which I would trade for a good working Pertronix 1 (I don't want to mess with the tach wire). So, I'm running old school points right now with pretty awesome performance. I have no idea of horsepower or torque.

I went with the 218/224 cam which is fairly mild, and the Holley 600cfm on top of the Edelbrock Performer 2750. I also changed to a 3.50 Trak Lok rear end from the stock 2.75 behind my good ol' FMX.

As described above, there are many variables beyond 2V or 4V, so the debate goes way beyond 2V and 4V. But, historically, they say that 2V has lots of low end burnout power, and 4V has lots of top end kick ass. Who am I to get in the way of history?

 

[Mister 4x4]

Doc, I've been following your engine build and pretty much modeled mine after yours because you had such great success with it... the videos don't lie. Like you, having good driveability with decent economy and the ability to enjoy a burn-out or high-speed romp now and then is what I was after.

I coulda swore you changed out those points already - if you're getting that kind of juice from points, that's pretty damn cool! ::thumb::

 

[cazsper]

Well I didn't mean to start a 4v vs 2v. It seems like they are almost two different engines. It's jus that I have access to these heads from a 400M and wasn't sure if they were worth keeping (to at least sell). I actually have a 4v Cleveland. I keep going back and forth between a 393/408 stroker or a big block.

 

[turtle5353]

I was told that going with the bigger 408 cubes would take care of any problems with torque on the low end for the 4v heads.

 

[droptop73]

It depends on how you want to use the car.

 

[wwhite72]

Swapping the crank for a stroker will increase the cubic inches of your engine, with resulting increase in torque. Common swap on 4v's on the street. It is expected that you sacrifice ability to hit high revs, but how many owners try to hit 7000 on the street anyway? But im sure Kaase has dyno'd stroked clevelands into the higher rpm ranges.