460?

[caspianwendell]

To start, I have a 71 vert, 302, C4 car. I know I can get some great hp from that but have an oppertunity to obtain a 76 460 with trans built to my specs in trade for bodywork on a 54 merc. Not experienced in 460 fords so questions arise.

1. How big a pain to install?

2. How should it be built? (pump gas, max hp)

I know others have done this so just looking for suggestions

 

[73 MACH 1 MAN]

I'm also new to the BBF's and the 429 in my 73 seems to be pretty well built and Ive been looking at what I can do to supplement a higher octane fuel. After some investigation Ive decided upon a methanol/Water injection system that boost octane 20-25 points helps the engine run cooler and increase HP more than 116 ocvtane racing fuel. The system isnt cheap but to me its well worth the money! With this sytem it will allow you to run a high compression engine on pump gas with some wild horse power!!! Heres the system Im looking at:

http://www.snowperformance.net/stage-2-boost-cooler-n-a.html

 

[TommyK]

To start, I have a 71 vert, 302, C4 car. I know I can get some great hp from that but have an oppertunity to obtain a 76 460 with trans built to my specs in trade for bodywork on a 54 merc. Not experienced in 460 fords so questions arise.

1. How big a pain to install?

2. How should it be built? (pump gas, max hp)

I know others have done this so just looking for suggestions

The installation is very straight forward. Motor mounts and headers are readily available.

How it should be built is totally dependent on how you will use the car. Weekend cruiser? Street/strip? Race only?

 

[caspianwendell]

I'm also new to the BBF's and the 429 in my 73 seems to be pretty well built and Ive been looking at what I can do to supplement a higher octane fuel. After some investigation Ive decided upon a methanol/Water injection system that boost octane 20-25 points helps the engine run cooler and increase HP more than 116 ocvtane racing fuel. The system isnt cheap but to me its well worth the money! With this sytem it will allow you to run a high compression engine on pump gas with some wild horse power!!! Heres the system Im looking at:

http://www.snowperformance.net/stage-2-boost-cooler-n-a.html

I saw an add video on that system before and of coarse they tried to sell the product but after some research of my own I found there were complications with it...before you shell out the moola I would suggest researching it yourself. I think they got it to run very well but it took a lot of tweeking, trial and error work to pull it off. They did not convence me that the trouble was worth the outcome, but if you do this system and figure it out PLEASE post it and let us know.

To start, I have a 71 vert, 302, C4 car. I know I can get some great hp from that but have an oppertunity to obtain a 76 460 with trans built to my specs in trade for bodywork on a 54 merc. Not experienced in 460 fords so questions arise.

1. How big a pain to install?

2. How should it be built? (pump gas, max hp)

I know others have done this so just looking for suggestions

The installation is very straight forward. Motor mounts and headers are readily available.

How it should be built is totally dependent on how you will use the car. Weekend cruiser? Street/strip? Race only?

This will be a weekend camaro eater only. Some of my questions are concerning fit and maintenance, body mods due to torque, cooling, etc.

 

[cobra3073]

Not trying to insult your knowledge but I believe it is important to understand that the for all practical purposes, the 429 and 460 are the SAME basic motors. The only real major difference is in the crankshafts. The 460 gets it "extra" cubic inches from the additional stroke.

That having been said, I have found that fitment for the 1971 - 1973 Mustangs is NOT an issue. All one has to do is set the car up similarly to the 1971CJ/SCJ Mustangs. In my case, I did go to bigger sway bars and heavier springs but it really depends on what you want out of the car.

Here is a picture of the 472 (.060 over 460) that I have in my '73 Grande:

Here is a picture of how the car "sits" with the 472, C6 and 9 inch to give you some idea as to the stance.

BT

 

[caspianwendell]

Yes I know the two blocks are the same, my concern as stated was going from small to big block, what was involved, and ease of maintaining it as I have owned bb fords before they were in bigger cars. I owned a 68 GT fastback 302 4 speed but this is my first 71. So basically spring change as I figured, mounts of coarse, now does the factory cooling set up for bb work well? cross member for 302 need changed? trans mount I assume is availible? I also know that frame support will be needed. Am I forgetting anything? tips? do's and don'ts would be greatly appriciated. ps don't worry about insulting me, I have no intellegence...lol

 

[Jeff73Mach1]

Get a griffin aluminum radiator and forget about all cooling problems!

 

[caspianwendell]

Get a griffin aluminum radiator and forget about all cooling problems!

I put a 2 core HO in my 68 and never had a problem again so I'm with you on that

 

[Jeff73Mach1]

I see used and running 460/C-6 combos regularly and have even seen a few in 71-73 Mustangs

They seem to sell for 1500-2K The 460 can be built to be a complete monster if you so desire.

I'd make sure and use a nonretarded timing set and pick a compression ratio and camshaft to put out maximum torque in the low to midrange. Since the C-6 won't have an overdrive, I'd look to run 3.25 gears.

If you plan on running it on the dragstrip leave in the existing front springs.

 

[caspianwendell]

I see used and running 460/C-6 combos regularly and have even seen a few in 71-73 Mustangs

They seem to sell for 1500-2K The 460 can be built to be a complete monster if you so desire.

I'd make sure and use a nonretarded timing set and pick a compression ratio and camshaft to put out maximum torque in the low to midrange. Since the C-6 won't have an overdrive, I'd look to run 3.25 gears.

If you plan on running it on the dragstrip leave in the existing front springs.

I want a 1 to 2 inch drop in the front anyway so thats a good suggestion. Will not be dragging a vert on the strip but I do want a fast toy.

Been looking at some jon kaase heads but not sure, does anyone have any experience with these? I believe Q just bought one.

The guy offered me the engine trans combo, parts, and machine work for trade. I think it's a good trade but what do I know?

 

[cobra3073]

Yes I know the two blocks are the same, my concern as stated was going from small to big block, what was involved, and ease of maintaining it as I have owned bb fords before they were in bigger cars. I owned a 68 GT fastback 302 4 speed but this is my first 71. So basically spring change as I figured, mounts of coarse, now does the factory cooling set up for bb work well? cross member for 302 need changed? trans mount I assume is availible? I also know that frame support will be needed. Am I forgetting anything? tips? do's and don'ts would be greatly appriciated. ps don't worry about insulting me, I have no intellegence...lol

Keep in mind that the 1971 429 motors shared the same radiators as the 302 (Heavy Duty) and 351 motors from the same period. I am using a factory-type replacement 351C radiator with the 7-blade fan that came with my 1970 year block. I have not had ANY cooling problems.

The mounts and supports are readily available. Again, since you are building a relatively "mild" motor, I would keep it simple. A mildly built 429/460 can easily put out 500HP AND Torque (which is what you really need on the street). As far as the difference in weight of the BBF, you can reduce that significantly with some aluminum heads and Intake.

Believe me, you will not have to go "radical" at all. While I paid to have my iron heads ported, it really does not make sense in my opinion (from a fiscal standpoint) for a "street" car as one can pick up some very adequate aluminum heads (Pro Comps) that will easily satisfy your stated purpose.

The key is to REALISTICALLY decide at what level you want to build the motor.

Again, installation "issues" can be easily addressed using the factory 1971CJ/SCJ Mustang as a template.

BT

 

[BigPinoyHunk]

i have a freshly rebuilt 466 running in my car now that i already want to sell off. i have video of the break in and that was less than a 3 weeks ago.

i will be willing to part ways for 3500 for the engine and the matching trans, but the trans probably needs to be rebuilt cuz it was/is sitting outside now.

PM me if interested. shipping is less than 200ish.

 

[caspianwendell]

Yes I know the two blocks are the same, my concern as stated was going from small to big block, what was involved, and ease of maintaining it as I have owned bb fords before they were in bigger cars. I owned a 68 GT fastback 302 4 speed but this is my first 71. So basically spring change as I figured, mounts of coarse, now does the factory cooling set up for bb work well? cross member for 302 need changed? trans mount I assume is availible? I also know that frame support will be needed. Am I forgetting anything? tips? do's and don'ts would be greatly appriciated. ps don't worry about insulting me, I have no intellegence...lol

Keep in mind that the 1971 429 motors shared the same radiators as the 302 (Heavy Duty) and 351 motors from the same period. I am using a factory-type replacement 351C radiator with the 7-blade fan that came with my 1970 year block. I have not had ANY cooling problems.

The mounts and supports are readily available. Again, since you are building a relatively "mild" motor, I would keep it simple. A mildly built 429/460 can easily put out 500HP AND Torque (which is what you really need on the street). As far as the difference in weight of the BBF, you can reduce that significantly with some aluminum heads and Intake.

Believe me, you will not have to go "radical" at all. While I paid to have my iron heads ported, it really does not make sense in my opinion (from a fiscal standpoint) for a "street" car as one can pick up some very adequate aluminum heads (Pro Comps) that will easily satisfy your stated purpose.

The key is to REALISTICALLY decide at what level you want to build the motor.

Again, installation "issues" can be easily addressed using the factory 1971CJ/SCJ Mustang as a template.

BT

Thanks BT, and as stated I do want to be able to run pump gas and get as much HP and torque as possible. I appretiate everyones input as I have little experience with 460s. And no I did not know they shared the same radiator

 

[TommyK]

The Kaase designed aluminum SCJ head is the best bang for the buck. A stock 76 bottom end will probably have 22 cc dished piston. The small chamber SCJ heads will give you in the neighborhood of 9.2:1 compression using the stock pistons. Perfect for pump gas. The only problem is the valve layout of the heads require specific notched pistons. I have read that the stock pistons can be used but only with a relatively small cam. Make sure to check PTV clearance if you want to go this route. YMMV.

If you are rebuilding the bottom end then you can use the correct piston and tailor the dish to achieve your desired compression ratio. I would keep it under 10:1 for pump gas with a zero deck the block. Also, even a mildly built 460 can easily over power the stock suspension and drive train components so budget for some inevitable upgrades in those areas as well.

The toughest part of the swap for me was accessories but that was mostly because I am cheap and stubborn.

I am also using a stock style 3 row radiator. I used my stock cleveland fan by enlarging the pilot hole and used my stock shroud with some very minor massaging. No cooling issues whatsoever.

 

[c9zx]

How much work are you considering doing in exchange for the "core" engine and transmission and Machine work? What condition are the cores in (is it already .080 over bored, need a sleeve, bearings turned, etc.)? Be careful on piston selection as the later (after 71 I think) blocks have a taller deck height than the early block (early is 10.300), (10.310 or 10.322 later blocks). The Kasse heads at $2450.00 are great heads but expensive, and I feel overkill, for the application you described. The early 429 CJ/SCJ heads work well with some exhaust port work. They are not super cheap either. Expect to spend $1000.00+ the cost of the cores. If you can find them, the 72 429 Police interceptor heads work very well also. I've found a few parts on this site over the years. http://www.racingjunk.com/ Chuck

 

[caspianwendell]

How much work are you considering doing in exchange for the "core" engine and transmission and Machine work? What condition are the cores in (is it already .080 over bored, need a sleeve, bearings turned, etc.)? Be careful on piston selection as the later (after 71 I think) blocks have a taller deck height than the early block (early is 10.300), (10.310 or 10.322 later blocks). The Kasse heads at $2450.00 are great heads but expensive, and I feel overkill, for the application you described. The early 429 CJ/SCJ heads work well with some exhaust port work. They are not super cheap either. Expect to spend $1000.00+ the cost of the cores. If you can find them, the 72 429 Police interceptor heads work very well also. I've found a few parts on this site over the years. http://www.racingjunk.com/ Chuck

It is a stock, running 460 with 48000 miles still in the lincoln. I get the complete driveable car...bad interior and faded paint.

 

[c9zx]

Well that sound very promising indeed. You might get away cheap depending on the level of performance you want. The engine is rated at 202 HP net, and static CR is 8.0:1 so it is not going to support much in the way of a cam. Having all the accessories is a big plus as is having the body to haul across the scales. Let us know what you end up doing. Chuck

 

[will e]

No experience with the big blocks (unless drooling on them is experience). I am a Cleveland guy myself so I won't comment too much on the motor part.

Once you get the torque monster in there you need to apply it to the ground. You asked about chassis mods. You will, without any doubt at all, want to put on subframe connectors. The convertibles need them anyways and for sure you are going to twist the frame some. You also should consider traction bars of some sort. I used the shelby under wheel style. I wouldn't just use the 302 springs. It may lower your front end but you may have them compressed too much. You can probably 'start off' with them but I would plan on swapping them out.

If you click on 'my garage' in my sig and then go to the modifications page there is shot of the subframe connectors as well as the traction bars on my convertible.

Again, you really want to put on some subframe connectors.

 

[Qcode351mach]

To start, I have a 71 vert, 302, C4 car. I know I can get some great hp from that but have an oppertunity to obtain a 76 460 with trans built to my specs in trade for bodywork on a 54 merc. Not experienced in 460 fords so questions arise.

1. How big a pain to install?

2. How should it be built? (pump gas, max hp)

I know others have done this so just looking for suggestions

Here's my take impression (My new mach has 429-460) It's all about power to weight ratio..The motor in my car was done extremely well & puts out some serious hp...But you can get almost the same hp out of a built 351w stroker..With a big savings in weight..The install is not a big deal..All the parts needed are readily available. What I have noticed is that even with the stock big block susp (done on my car) The handling still sucks..My other car Q code 351 competition susp package stock would make the 429 car look stupid on any type of road course..It's a much better balanced car..The point being unless your doing any 1/4 mile racing if you do the 429 You must do a modern upgraded susp package..By that I mean a front coil over conversation..larger front & rear sway bars etc...NOT STOCK off the shelf 429 stuff..It dosn't work if you want to go fast ..feel safe doing it & handle...I plan on doing that very shortly on the 429 Car..I can't drive the car the way it is now & feel safe doing it..(has all new STOCK 429 suspension components) It's not cutting the mustard in the handling dept. I have all the specs receipts etc (Kasse heads)..if you like for the build of the 429.BTW most likely I'm going to dump the 429 in the new mach for a built 351w stroker in the near future...So i may have a bunch of the conversation stuff for sale...Also is it just body work ? or body paint you pay for supplies.?