4V Heads that I purchased

[trainey]

Good Morning Team 'Stang!

I bought some great 4V heads a couple of months ago, but after doing some talking with a friend of mine that is a engine builder, he has suggested that these probably are not the best fit for my application. My intent is to build a street car, not a race car. His concern was that the intake ports are so huge that these would not be flowing well until the RPMs are up there, and being a street car, power would suffer at the lower RPM range. I also plan to swap from the FMX to and AOD, so there is consideration for that as well. At this point, it looks like I would be better to have the 2V heads ported, new SS Valves, springs, etc, etc and sell these. Below are his findings on flow, and the CC measurement of the chamber. He is a MOPAR guy, so he said check with the Ford experts, but it seems to me that the physics of combustion are the same regardless of manufacturer. Specs below:

Ford Cleveland 4V DZ1E

New Ferrea stainless one piece valves

2.19 Intake

1.71 Exhaust

New bronze guides

Performance seals

Spring Cups

Fresh Valve Job

Combustion chamber volume 76CC

Intake port volume 242CC

Spring info

Single with a damper

set up height 1.81 inches

seat pressure 140 lbs

open pressure @1.26 inches (.550 lift) 305 lbs

coil bind @ 1.120 inches

Cylinder head flow @ 28 inches

LIFT intake flow exhaust flow % exh to int

.200 120 110 91

.300 193 146 75

.400 247 169 68

.450 262 171 65

.500 265 177 66

.550 274 179 65

.600 279 181 65

.650 290 181 62

.700 294 181 61

Thanks!

 

[MotoArts]

I'd need to see the rest (specs) of the intended engine components as well. (ie. cam choice, what pistons/compression, headers, rear gear, etc.).

It all works as a package.

Most importantly... what do you want... I mean REALLY want... to get out of the car?

Component choice is always a compromise.

 

[trainey]

Well, Cam and intake choice really depends on heads used. I have a cam and 4V intake set picked out for the 2V heads. I was planning on the stock pistons, and I assume the compression ratio would be the same, no bore or stroke change (9 to1). I had planned on just replacing main and rodbearings unless I see other issues. I have already installed 3.50 traction-lok rearend, and want to do the AOD swap to gain a little highway gear back. I also already have headers, with 2 1/4 exhaust and flowmaster musfflers. The intent is really a strong street machine.

I think soon I am going to go ahead and pull the 2V heads and have him CC them, and spec them out, unless someone knows the specs.

 

[Don C]

The DZ1E-DA heads were the open-chamber ones used on Cobra Jets and the 2-V heads you now have are approximately the same combustion chamber size. The close chamber heads are 62.8 cc. If they were the closed-chamber (quench) heads I would say change them. With the open chamber heads I would probably stick with the 2-V heads, unless you want to be able to go higher than 6,000 to 6,500 RPMs. I still don't buy into the idea that 4-V heads don't have any bottom-end torque. With the correct cam they do, most 4-V headed vehicles have bigger cams, which raises the torque RPM range, not the valves and port volumes. Also, most 4-V engines also run 750 cfm, or bigger, carburetors, which may have some driveability issues, due to the throttle plate sizes and airflow speeds past the venturies.

 

[c9zx]

I suggest you have your friend flow the 2V heads. Then compare the flow data. It will tell you a lot and may help you make a fact based decision. Your friend is clearly a valuable asset and is trying to help you. There are a lot of wives tales out there about 4V heads vs 2V heads on the street. The compression ratio, fuel, and power level desired well determine the cam selection, which is critical and different for 4V and 2V heads. Chuck

 

[hyena429]

I suggest you have your friend flow the 2V heads. Then compare the flow data. It will tell you a lot and may help you make a fact based decision. Your friend is clearly a valuable asset and is trying to help you. There are a lot of wives tales out there about 4V heads vs 2V heads on the street. The compression ratio, fuel, and power level desired well determine the cam selection, which is critical and different for 4V and 2V heads. Chuck

+1 {thumbs up} Most who say they dont work well on the street...Never drove one

And if you do pick 4v...4v heads get more out of a dual pattern cam...Than a single pattern cam "which a 2v will get"...Like everyone says..Make sure it all matches..If you already for a cam and stuff for a 2v..It will not work as well on the 4v.

 

[mustbrad]

With the AOD gearing and the 3.50 you will be able to better use the RPM range of the 4V heads get a good 4 barrel manifold and use a 750 with vacuum secondaries. Call Comp Cams and tell them what you have they will recomend one for your need. Driving will be in a higher RPM range and the torque and power will be good with the ability to rev higher if needed between 2500 and 6500 this will be a great fun driving car. Also it would be best to have the converter stall around 2800 rpm, I believe the stall on a Q code was in this range. I changed to 2V heads and wish I did not way move fun to rev and the sound is better (more air).

 

[Wolverine]

1. Your choice of torque converter and rear end are an important aspect of your build.

2. If you are going with a 2.75 rear and and a 1200-1500 torque converter, you will have a dog off the line no matter what you build.

3. If you are going with a 3.25 and 2k+ torque converter, you will be fine with the 4v heads.

4. With the AOD you may want a 3.50 gear. Do the math.

5. The sooner your car gets to 3k rpm, the better off you will be.

6. A good setup to go with is the BOSS 351 in regards to cam, crank, compression, and rear end. Boss's didn't have automatic transmissions..for good reason. The 4 speed kept the RPM's above 3K.

Good Luck.

 

[MotoArts]

Another point to consider is that your existing 2V headers will not work with the 4V heads. The flanges are different sizes.

Then, possibly (probably) the H-pipe will need to be modified or changed completely since the collectors rarely exit in the same spot.

(My Dad used to call this process "lighting the fuse... gotta know when and where to pinch it off"... referring to the snowball effect of changing components or doing any kind of hop-ups).

 

[mach71351c]

Let me just say that I was one of those guys that thought the 2v motor was better for the street. Then I built a 4v motor. Let me put it this way. My brother had a bone stock 85 GT he would beat my built 2v Grande by a car. After installing the 4v motor I smoked my brothers 85 GT by 3 1/2 cars. Using same 750 carb 3000 stall 3.50 gear. The car was now fun. The 2v motor just maid noise. With the 3.50 gear and the rite cam the 4v heads are the way to go. There is no point in paying labor for porting the 2v heads for little to no gain over the 4v heads. ( been there done that ) You already maid the rite steps for a strong street car. 3.50s and 4v heads now get a good cam and don't look back.

 

[trainey]

I suggest you have your friend flow the 2V heads. Then compare the flow data. It will tell you a lot and may help you make a fact based decision. Your friend is clearly a valuable asset and is trying to help you. There are a lot of wives tales out there about 4V heads vs 2V heads on the street. The compression ratio, fuel, and power level desired well determine the cam selection, which is critical and different for 4V and 2V heads. Chuck

Yes, I plan to have him flow the 2V heads. I have a question though, what made the compression ratio different on the H code vs an open chamber 4V engine, seeing that bore and stroke are the same, just the difference in the chamber volume of the heads? or were the piston tops different?

My biggest concern if I go with the 4V heads, given that I would be using dual pattern cam, is that I would have issues at the lower RPM's and when running in overdrive on the AOD.

Below is what my friend recommends:

Edelbrock head

http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive_new/mc/cylheads/ford/cle_perf_rpm.shtml

My choice for intake


http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive_new/mc/manifolds/ford/rpm_air_gap-351c.shtml

 


My cam choice would be Comp Cams part nbr 32-242-4 grind nbr XE262 218/224 duration @ .050 . 513 intake lift and 520 exh lift.

 


With the edelbrock heads and intake and this cam assuming a comp ratio of 10.25 to 1 the engine should make 400 HP at only 5500 RPM's and have 430+ ft lbs of torque @ 4000 RPM's.


Most important is that it would have 400 ft lbs as early as 2000 rpm's and still be above 400 at 5000 rpm's. Would work with a stock factory hi stall converter and a AOD trans and be perfect with your 3.5 rear gear.which would become a 2.35 in OD. So lets say you cruise at 65mph at 3000 RPM. Shift into overdrive and the rpms drop to 2000 but you still have 400 ft lbs of torque to pull the car. I would also look for a long tube header with a 1 3/4 primary tube and a 3 inch collector. Similar nbrs may be possible with the 2V head but I think all the power nbrs should be discounted at least 6% due to lost compression and air flow.


Gerald

Although they are nice, I am not sure that I want to drop $2k on the new edelbrock heads.

 

[mach71351c]

5.0 Mustangs have 300 ft pounds of torque at 3200 and run a 2.73 rear gear.They run about 1700 at 70 mph no problem. I believe your 3.50s is the ticket to running the 4v heads.

 

[Jeff73Mach1]

Let me just say that I was one of those guys that thought the 2v motor was better for the street. Then I built a 4v motor. Let me put it this way. My brother had a bone stock 85 GT he would beat my built 2v Grande by a car. After installing the 4v motor I smoked my brothers 85 GT by 3 1/2 cars. Using same 750 carb 3000 stall 3.50 gear. The car was now fun. The 2v motor just maid noise. With the 3.50 gear and the rite cam the 4v heads are the way to go. There is no point in paying labor for porting the 2v heads for little to no gain over the 4v heads. ( been there done that ) You already maid the rite steps for a strong street car. 3.50s and 4v heads now get a good cam and don't look back.

mirrors my experience with 4v heads

 

[MotoArts]

Yes, I plan to have him flow the 2V heads. I have a question though, what made the compression ratio different on the H code vs an open chamber 4V engine, seeing that bore and stroke are the same, just the difference in the chamber volume of the heads? or were the piston tops different?

My biggest concern if I go with the 4V heads, given that I would be using dual pattern cam, is that I would have issues at the lower RPM's and when running in overdrive on the AOD.

Below is what my friend recommends:

Edelbrock head

http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive_new/mc/cylheads/ford/cle_perf_rpm.shtml

My choice for intake


http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive_new/mc/manifolds/ford/rpm_air_gap-351c.shtml

 


My cam choice would be Comp Cams part nbr 32-242-4 grind nbr XE262 218/224 duration @ .050 . 513 intake lift and 520 exh lift.

 


With the edelbrock heads and intake and this cam assuming a comp ratio of 10.25 to 1 the engine should make 400 HP at only 5500 RPM's and have 430+ ft lbs of torque @ 4000 RPM's.


Most important is that it would have 400 ft lbs as early as 2000 rpm's and still be above 400 at 5000 rpm's. Would work with a stock factory hi stall converter and a AOD trans and be perfect with your 3.5 rear gear.which would become a 2.35 in OD. So lets say you cruise at 65mph at 3000 RPM. Shift into overdrive and the rpms drop to 2000 but you still have 400 ft lbs of torque to pull the car. I would also look for a long tube header with a 1 3/4 primary tube and a 3 inch collector. Similar nbrs may be possible with the 2V head but I think all the power nbrs should be discounted at least 6% due to lost compression and air flow.


Gerald

Sounds like Gerald's on an excellent track for a low RPM Cleveland (key word "low).

4V engines (with factory advertised 10.7:1 comp) had flat tops with closed chamber heads. 2V's had open chamber (like the late 4V's) and dished pistons (I believe).

Your choices regarding which Cleveland combo to use will make you absolutely dizzy with information.

Literally.

You will devote hour upon hour figuring the whatzas and whereaboutzas and whozagears about what will be "best".

Unfortunately, if ask 100 people about it, you will get at least 125 recommendations.

I'm in the same boat as you are. I have both CC-4V's and OC-2V's in stock for my car. I've collected 4 different transmissions (a T5, an AOD and 2- C4's with little converters). And 4 different rear gears (already set up).

And that's just for the Cleveland. There's a fresh 460 and a roller 351W sitting there too.

My head's been spinning for years LOL.

Another short road home is to consult a cam manufacturer of choice for their best suggestion. The questions that they will ask will probably get you closest to zen with minimal hair loss.

Emphasis on the word "closest".

There is no black 'n white, right or wrong answer.

IMO.

Edit:

As a cross-check of info, (and if you haven't gone here already), I recommend: www.351cleveland.net

If personal satisfaction from education is your thing (like it is mine) you will find darned near every answer to 351C combos available by searching there. Things that you can't find are normally well answered by asking the knowledgeable, blue blooded true users of the C product that reside there...

 

[Totalled]

I think your cam choice is small, especially if you use 4V heads. You don't need a ton of stall for the converter, I put a 2000/2200 in my car and it's much easier to drive than it was with a 3K stall or a stock truck converter.

I think with 4V heads, and that compression ratio, you could have a cam in the 280 range and still not give up much low end torque. That small 264 cam will be out of breath right where the 4V heads shine.

See the 351 build that horsepower tv did. The mis matched the cam when they swapped 4V heads on, and kept low compression ratio. It lost HP and TQ.

 

[pegasus]

I agree the cam is a little small for a 4V headed clevo, somthing around this size would be better,

http://www.lunatipower.com/Product.aspx?id=1623&gid=287

 

[hyena429]

Yup..if your going to put a cam in..I would get a bit bigger my self...Im putting in a dual pattern comp cam in mine..It is a 5.30 lift with 280 advanced duration...should make around 430ish too 450hp with my 750 vac sec holley...I got cam sitting in my back room waiting to be put in...stil got numbers if you need them..And i been told it is almost small..lol

Let me just say that I was one of those guys that thought the 2v motor was better for the street. Then I built a 4v motor. Let me put it this way. My brother had a bone stock 85 GT he would beat my built 2v Grande by a car. After installing the 4v motor I smoked my brothers 85 GT by 3 1/2 cars. Using same 750 carb 3000 stall 3.50 gear. The car was now fun. The 2v motor just maid noise. With the 3.50 gear and the rite cam the 4v heads are the way to go. There is no point in paying labor for porting the 2v heads for little to no gain over the 4v heads. ( been there done that ) You already maid the rite steps for a strong street car. 3.50s and 4v heads now get a good cam and don't look back.

mirrors my experience with 4v heads

+3

 

[trainey]

I think after reviewing your advice, and reading some very interesting articles on the 351C.net forums, I think I will proceed with the 4v CobraJet heads, if I don't like it after I get it together, I can always go back to the 2V setup, having my friend rework them. Thanks for all of your input!

 

[Jeff73Mach1]

So, how about an update?