73 alignment saga

[Muswagon]

They played with it for 2 hours, the tech was great, showed me the issues.

FIrst off, he is sure the steering box being loose is causing havoc.

Second, drivers caster is bizarre, seems out of whack. he got it the best he could.

Lastly, the eccentric bolt on the drivers side is not seating into that metal peice that is welded to the subframe. It actually spinning over it, looks like the metal peice is worn and its no longer holding it in place correctly.

Sigh...

So, first I would like your opinion on the steering box that Mustangsunlimited has for our cars, the PS version. I dont want to do any send in service, being in Canada, that will be at least a month before I get it back and able to drive again, summer is short up here.

Second, what on earth do I do about that metal peice on the subframe that centres the camber bolt?

 

[computercarguy]

If the metal shoulders are getting pushed away as the alignment cam is turned I would guess tht the control arm bushing is 'wedged" in place and not moving with the cam bolt. Something has to give so the metal shoulders are. Get the bushing (lower control arm pivot) freed up under the car so the arm can move in and out. Straighten the shoulders, align and tighten the bolt. Just my thoughts. Good luck.

 

[Ron Tanzi]

They played with it for 2 hours, the tech was great, showed me the issues.

FIrst off, he is sure the steering box being loose is causing havoc.

Second, drivers caster is bizarre, seems out of whack. he got it the best he could.

Lastly, the eccentric bolt on the drivers side is not seating into that metal peice that is welded to the subframe. It actually spinning over it, looks like the metal peice is worn and its no longer holding it in place correctly.

Sigh...

So, first I would like your opinion on the steering box that Mustangsunlimited has for our cars, the PS version. I dont want to do any send in service, being in Canada, that will be at least a month before I get it back and able to drive again, summer is short up here.

Second, what on earth do I do about that metal peice on the subframe that centres the camber bolt?

The flat portion on the control arm mounting bolt that aligns the eccentrics is stripped and causing the issue you are having. You need Moog kit K8243A this kit is complete with left and right bolts,eccentrics and nuts. Good luck.

 

[Muswagon]

Appreciate the part number, for $15 I am crazy not to try.

Anyone care to weigh in on the steering box question?

On toe in vs toe out. At both alignment shops, the way the heads that clamp to the wheels work, no actual measurement is taken. When I measure on the ground, only measuring 1/3 of the way up the tire I am showing .25 inch toe out which would more than explain the cars desire to injure me. When I stand looking down at each front fender at the front wheels, there is definately toe out, even accounting for the fenders tapering in as you head toward the car.

Is there a translation difference between actual measurements on old cars vs new equipment??

 

[Mister 4x4]

Maybe I'm missing something, but it sounds to me like the alignment technician has no 'practical knowledge' of how to align the car, beyond punching make and model data into the computer. Pretty much just like those parts guys that can't figure out "if it's not in the computer, look it up in one of those giant books the old guys use." Sure, he'll get you the part you need under optimal conditions, but anything outside of the box (literally) isn't going to happen without some kind of intervention.

Pretty sad when a simple tape measure could be more effective than a super-duper computer system.

:shootself:

 

[Muswagon]

I had the very same thought!

 

[Jeff73Mach1]

Your post is unclear. You may be measuring correctly, but your description makes it hard to tell , so I decided to add this

This is negative camber / ________________ \ When viewed from the front of the car

This is toe in when viewed from above the car /__________________\

Positive camber will make the car very unstable and prone to darting with every bump. More positive more unstable

Excessive amounts of any of the above will tear up your tires quickly.

 

[Mister 4x4]

This is toe in when viewed from above the car /__________________\
Positive camber will make the car very unstable and prone to darting with every bump. More positive more unstable

Excessive amounts of any of the above will tear up your tires quickly.

^ ^ ^

Front of Car

/__________________\

Toe-In

^ ^ ^

Front of Car

\ __________________ /

Toe-Out

There - fixed it for ya. ::thumb::

Toe-in will help the car track straight. Toe-out will make it harder to track straight, and have more responsive steering. But you're right - only small amounts are needed for big results. That's why the factory spec for toe-in is such a small number, with a small window for acceptable tolerance.

 

[Muswagon]

Sorry if I was unlcear. Was not referring to camber when I was looking at the wheels from above fender, looking at what way the wheel was actually pointing.

When I measured the toe, the front of tire was .25 inches wider than the rear, so toe out. The camber looks to be bang on if not slightly negative. The caster is a mess, something must be tweaked.

My ultimate question is then how can the shop show toe in, when there is actually toe out?


To be clear-er lol..... I was standing on either side of the car looking down at the front wheels, not in front or back of car.

 

[Mister 4x4]

Because of the crazy treads of the TSX Super Swampers on my Jeep, I've learned to just bite the bullet and pull the front tires to measure the front edge of the rotor against the back edge of the rotor. Of course, that's a lot easier to do accurately on the Jeep since it's a solid front axle - so jacking it up by the axle and pulling off its wheels does not affect camber, caster, or toe.

My point is that considering how little the window is for tolerance (less than a half-inch to either side of 0-degrees, you need a consistent, "hard" measuring point on front and back of the wheel hub - I recommend the rotor, since it's consistent to both side of the car, as well as front and back of the wheel hub.

 

[Jeff73Mach1]

I figured you did, but in an effort to make sure that anyone following the thread didn't get confused I was apparently a little confusing

 

[computercarguy]

Custom 71-73 Mustang alignment images

 

[rocket366]

From my library of schooling myself on the voodoo that is wheel alignment:

If you can't get positive caster I'm afraid you will have to get the

car on a frame rack and get it checked out.

Positive caster makes the car stable!

Good Luck

Paul

 

[mjlan]

Is this the follow up visit after the car fell? Sorry if I missed another thread...

It doesn't make sense how the toe could be different, someone's making a mistake in their measurement. Also, you only mentioned toe and caster, and neither of those involve the lower control arm eccentric.

You mention the steering box being 'loose' are you talking about it being loose where it attaches to the frame, or loose due to excessive internal wear? I would argue that the first case (loose attachment to frame) would affect toe, whereas the internal wear has no effect, it's all in the mechanical parts of the system (ball joints, tie rods etc.).

What damage was found from the drop? I would expect something to be tweaked from that much force...

 

[Muswagon]

There are several issues going on;

It didn't fall from the lift, they left the head on the wheel and drove, it blew the tire and dented my fender. I don't think there is any damage from that. The caster issue seems to be worse on the drivers (not damaged) side.

The eccentric on the drivers side is the one that slips over the metal stop on the crossmember.

Cannot get positive caster on either side, drivers as mentioned is worse.

Steering gear/box is loose from wear. All front end parts other than that are new and tight.

I think a frame machine is probably next step to see what is really going on.

 

[mjlan]

Oh, I got it now about what happened, sorry for the confusion!

The caster is set by moving the nuts on the strut rod- tightening (shortening the rod's length) will increase positive caster while backing off both nuts will decrease it. Is there evidence that they have been messing with these nuts (giggity)?

 

[Muswagon]

I had it at a goodyear garage on Saturday. They let me stand under the car while we tried to dial in positive caster. WIth the strut rod maxed out on drivers side, still negative. negative on the machine, and you can see the spindle is leaning negative. I think the drivers side of all of my problems.


I think another problem is they are not taking into account that I am running 5 leaf rear spring with some serious arc and tall ET STreets, it has an aggressive but not silly stance. However, it is dramatic compared to the stock lean back attitude of these cars.

 

[Jeff73Mach1]

I'm wondering if a new set of strut rod bushings might not be the solution.

 

[Carolina_Mountain_Mustangs]

Again I have two cents. The chassis on these cars is very easy to bend. If you jack the car up using say the front cross member at the front of the engine you can bend the car. If you have any rust that weakens the body even more. The frame shop here has to tweak the bodies of the highway patrol cars because the will drive through the median on the interstate and twist the body on a brand new car. I had a 74 Nova SS, never again, and you could not align it took to frame shop and he just laughed. Said that all the GM cars with the crappy bolt on front frame were easy to bend and it was common. It is very easy to twist and bend one of these cars causing all kinds of issues.

I would start with the frame get it right for a good base. If your rag joint is shot I would replace it. Can you not adjust the steering box for play with the nut & screw. Or am I thinking of a different Mustang I have 8 and get confused?

I had to have the rear aligned in a 71 maverick I had to stop dog tracking.

David