BETTER news for my 408. ITS ALIVE!!!!!

[turtle5353]

Well I'm going to congratulate you on catching it before real significant damage occurred. There are different retainers and it might be a mismatch, or it might be a valve stem that was cut out of spec or an installation error. You could be back on the road in a few days and at no cost so I think you made out like a bandit this time.

Yeah im glad I caught it in time. You could hear that something was different with the motor. I can almost tell you where and when the motor changed sounds.

 

[rcadd1ct]

Verify the retainers and keepers are the same angle.

 

[MeZapU]

As bad as your luck may be you just experience a massive stroke of good luck. You might consider changing all the keepers and retainers or at least do a thorough inspection. A very unusual failure. I hope things go smoother in the future. Chuck

x2

I would also replace all of the keepers with ones from a known good manufacturer. Likely inspect all of the retainers as well. If the heads were purchased assembled, then you never know what cost cutting components were used.

And in the future I would stay away from the 3M style Scotch Brite wheels when cleaning a precision machined surface like a cyl head or deck surface. You can do more harm than good and can often lead to leakage or sealing issues. I had a 302/351w timing cover that looked mint but wouldn't seal for anything because of this reason.

 

[timachone]

Jeff,

I am happy to hear that you are quite lucky under the circumstances.

It doesn't bear thinking about what would happen some time later...

Hope you get on the street again in a few day. It seems that your valves and pistons did not touch each other so the only thing you have to do is checking for new retainers.

I had never seen such failure before - but this shows that it can happen!

You are the One-In-A-Million-Guy - you should play lottery for now

Best wishes,

Tim

And in the future I would stay away from the 3M style Scotch Brite wheels when cleaning a precision machined surface like a cyl head or deck surface. You can do more harm than good and can often lead to leakage or sealing issues. I had a 302/351w timing cover that looked mint but wouldn't seal for anything because of this reason.

I would never come near the idea to clean that surface with a wheel ::huh::

I am always using an absolutely even grindstone in combination with some oil to keep it smooth. And grinding from one end to the other without staying at one spot.

 

[turtle5353]

Thanks for the input guys, I did not know you shouldn't use the 3m scotch brites for cleaning it up..... it didn't have really anything on them and I just lightly hit the entire surface. The pads were suppose to be for aluminum. Not nearly as coarse as my other ones.

Now, I just got back from the engine builder. Took the head there and disassembled it. The bottom of the retainer did break. It messed up the groove in the valve also. After inspecting a few others we found that EVERY valve was worn!!!! Enough that the keepers were ready to come out of almost every one of them!!!! I dodged a huge BULLET!! It really bums me out but it could have been worse. My engine builder said he has never seen that before. This motor is lucky if it has 2000 miles and every valve is damaged. This is the only part of the build that he didn't handle, unfortunately. I bought the heads from Barnett High Performance fully assembled. They bought them from AFD bare and who knows what parts Barnett used. I emailed them tonight since they are not open at this time. I am hoping they will stand behind them somehow??? Its ridiculous....... the heads are awesome but the whole valve assembly is shit!!!! Look to be very cheap parts used. We are going to rebuild the heads with good quality parts. New springs retainers, seals, valves, everything!! We will see what Barnett has to say about it. Just sucks... I have over $10,000 in this motor build and the one thing I don't have my builder take care of goes to shit! When buying heads of this caliber and price you don't want to use cheap valve train parts. I would of paid a couple hundred bucks more for quality parts. Looking back I should have bought the heads bare and had my builder do the complete assembly, but hindsight is 20-20! Worse case scenario im out $500-600 bucks and not $10,000 on another motor!!! Wish me luck fellas!!

 

[timachone]

Oh man,

how could the valves get such a damage :huh:

Glad they ruined not the whole engine! For 10.000 bucks you could expect something valuable. But this confirms once again that you HAVE TO assemble every bit of your mustang on your own, prove every part and don't trust anybody's ready assembled pieces. Thats my bitter experience too... Too bad they used crap material but lucky enough your whole engine was under a good star these moments...

I wish you all the best, Jeff - good luck ::thumb::

 

[rcadd1ct]

Is it possible the retainers were for the next size up valves?

 

[turtle5353]

Is it possible the retainers were for the next size up valves?

No idea?? Don't have any specs on any of the parts. Hopefully hear back from Barnett!

 

[MeZapU]

When I first built up the Aussie heads for my present engine I purchased some new stainless steel valves for it. After approximately 1500 miles I was experiencing some valvetrain noise. I investigated and found that the valve stem tips were mushrooming out under the strain of the roller camshaft valvetrain and bits of valve stem metal were flaking off. I pulled the heads and purchased quality hardware to go back in. The Manley Severe Duty valves that I purchased cost more for the eight exhaust valves than all 16 of the stainless generic ones. Live and learn. Stainless steel does not automatically mean high performance.

I never skimp on valvetrain parts any more. It's easily the most expensive part of any engine I build. I'm glad Ferrea offers a 40% military discount as I used their competition valves for my new 4v quench heads going on my new motor. My valve springs cost $500. By the time it's all said and done I'll have about $2k into these heads. They will be some sweet heads but a few hundred more and I could have gone with some CHI or AFD heads, but that's not what I want out of my build.

 

[turtle5353]

Heard back from Barnett. Pretty much said they never had that happen before. Said they only use quality parts but could not name the quality parts. So Im shit outta luck from them, which I kinda expected. So, onward and upward. My builder will go through the heads and make them right. I have no doubt in that. Not sure what we will be using but its entirely up to him. But it will be good stuff.

 

[will e]

So did they say we never heard of that before but let's make it work or never heard of that before so you are on your own?

 

[4Vforever]

Sorry to hear about someone else being ripped off on useless, cheap valve train parts. This situation seems to be a regular occurrence these days with assembled heads, read so many threads on different forums about this problem. When I was in the engine game, we never once bought assembled heads as we could never be sure on exactly what parts go into them, and now the response from the place you purchased them from tells you the story of these assembled heads, cheap no name parts. One thing about the price of assembled heads and their claims on what they should be able to, just doesn't add up. When you look at prices of quality valves like Del West, Ferrea or such, plus add on quality springs, retainers and locks and the price of assembled heads just doesn't add up, seriously how can valve and assembly gear like that of the quality stuff be assembled to the heads for so little, simple answer, it can't. Anyway glad to see you didn't end up with a useless piece of metal because you heard something wasn't quite right with your engine (trust me, I knew of guys that would've kept driving until it blew up) and decided to check it out straight away. It sounds like your engine builder is a stand up guy and knows his stuff, so you should be back on the road in next to no time. You say about being unlucky with engines, but from what I've seen there, you've been extremely lucky with this situation as it could've been a hell of a lot worse.

 

[rcadd1ct]

The brand name is "quality".

Not that they ARE quality.

 

[TommyK]

You were lucky. You also demonstrated great awareness and good judgement.

Perhaps you could ask your shop to check the installed height and spring pressure on the Barnett springs and see if the springs were appropriate for the cam you are running. If it were me I would really want to pin point the exact cause of the failure.

Valvetrain geometry would be another area to focus on but with the heads removed that ship has sailed. Are there any witness marks on the rockers where they were possibly hitting the retainers?

 

[turtle5353]

Will e according to Barnett they never seen this happen un less the motor was over revved or had 100,000 miles. Mine had neither. I have my rev limiter set @6500 rpm and have never touched it. So im on my own with this fix but that what I expected.

Tommy, my engine builder is going to check the springs just for shits and giggles and see what kind of pressure they have. The cam, heads, springs, and everything like that was spec'd out by Barnett. It was all suppose to match but I should have just ordered them bare and had my guy do it. Live and learn. I assumed they were good parts. Bare heads run around $1600 fully assembled are around $2300. With $700 in springs and valves I assumed they were quality. That's what you get when you assume things. I still have the driver side head on and will be pulling it off today. I did check the pushrod length, travel of the rocker roller on the tip of the valve and everything looks good. All of the Rockers are in perfect shape none of them contacted the retainers. Just seems like the retainers cant hold the spring pressure and are pulling through. Or the groove in the valves are so generic that they are wearing out and letting the keepers pull through. Here is a link to his ebay ads that states that they use PBM, TFS, Speedmaster, or Comp parts for all the valve train assemblies. I have no idea what are installed on mine??? But whatever we use now are going to be top of the line! Tired of people doing piss poor work and selling junk. Atleast my engine guy will take care of it. All I have to do is pay for the parts.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/351c-351-cleveland-Air-Flow-Dynamics-SP4V-heads-complete-AFD-Ford-SBF-race-boss-/251460004778?hash=item3a8c2f2baa&vxp=mtr

 

[c9zx]

I'd try to get Barnett to help with the cost of replacement parts. If he wants to maintain his 100% positive rating he may be willing to help defray some of the costs. Just a thought. If you decide to replace the springs you might consider the beehives made by PAC. I hope all goes well from here on out. Chuck

 

[turtle5353]

I'd try to get Barnett to help with the cost of replacement parts. If he wants to maintain his 100% positive rating he may be willing to help defray some of the costs. Just a thought. If you decide to replace the springs you might consider the beehives made by PAC. I hope all goes well from here on out. Chuck

I asked about helping out but he pretty much said I over revved it and I'm out. I am definately replacing springs. Replacing everything except heads. Don't think I can leave bad feedback now that its been year and half since purchase??

 

[MeZapU]

In the racing world, teams often refresh the heads after a few miles of running. Heat cycles and material bedding often alter the initial machined tolerances of a virgin set of heads. So a fresh valve job and head skim would likely seal things up better, make a few more horsepower and allow the engine to run better/longer before the next rebuild. So it's not all bad.

 

[MotoArts]

I asked about helping out but he pretty much said I over revved it and I'm out.

Such bullshizz.

He knows what components are in those heads. No way in hell that they've sold that many sets in that amount of time, and do not have records whatsoever of what components were used.

I would think an over rev would most likely have resulted in piston to valve contact... not retainer, keeper or valve failure (especially with "their" valves and springs).

He knows it.

And we all do, too.

If it "never happened before", then they should be more than happy to help, even if just a little bit. Money that they *haven't* spent on claims should far exceed your purchase. As much as I do not like the way the company that I work for does some things (who doesn't? ), we are very good with customer service issues like yours. I'd imagine we'd have at least helped.

Sorry for your loss, man. You are way, WAY too kind of a person to let it roll off of your back like that.

 

[Don C]

And in the future I would stay away from the 3M style Scotch Brite wheels when cleaning a precision machined surface like a cyl head or deck surface. You can do more harm than good and can often lead to leakage or sealing issues. I had a 302/351w timing cover that looked mint but wouldn't seal for anything because of this reason.

+1, different surfaces need different finishes (roughness) for different gaskets:

http://www.enginebuildermag.com/2007/06/common-mistakes-to-avoid-when-resurfacing-cylinder-heads-blocks/