BETTER news for my 408. ITS ALIVE!!!!!

[computercarguy]

Were you going to pull the oil pan to look for little metal pieces? Just in case.

 

[turtle5353]

I don't think im going to pull the pan. None of the other keepers broke. Just the one and i found probably over 90% of it. I will flush the motor, change the oil again run it a few min. then probably flush and drain again.

Wish they would have been able to atleast help a little with the new parts but it is what it is. That motor should be able to turn 6500rpm all day long. It was built to easily handle it. Im not saying I baby this thing but I sure the hell never floated the valves even once. I usually shift at just over 6000 rpm and its still pulling HARD! But most of the driving in this car is with my family in and we got get ice cream on the weekends. Hit a car show once in a while but mainly its an ice cream getter!!

O-well no sense in me bitching any more! I appreciate the support from everyone on the forum! And I will keep you guys posted on what happens and try to get a video up of it when I get it running again.

 

[4Vforever]

Here is a link to his ebay ads that states that they use PBM, TFS, Speedmaster, or Comp parts for all the valve train assemblies. I have no idea what are installed on mine???

I'd say by the description in his ad then, I'd say it would be the Speedmaster crap that they installed in your heads then. Speedmaster is the name they've dug back up as Pro Crap (Comp) name has such a terrible wrap as their parts are absolute garbage. Many years ago in Australia, the Speedmaster name was so bad that everyone thought they went bust from their inferior components. Then Pro Crap products started to appear, then people found out it was infact Speedmaster had changed their name and traded under Pro Comp. Well after failure after failure and not standing behind their promises and rejecting warranty claims blaming everything and anything, all of a sudden the Pro Comp name disappears and the Speedmaster name comes back into play. Obviously they thought nobody would remember the Speedmaster name and suck in a whole new generation of suckers with their inferior crap. There are literally pages and pages (that many it's more likely a book) of complaints and negative feedback of both Pro Comp and Speedmaster parts on various forums, that many people are surprised that they can even sell this garbage. Their most common failures, no surprise are valve train related, everything from valves pulling through, springs failing, retainers breaking, studs bending, rocker bearing failures, roller lifters disintegrating, right through to inserts falling out of their heads, let alone some of the terrible machining on their stocker kits. I have never used or even really seen any of this crap personally, nor would I, but I have known people that have had first hand dealings with it and can't believe people are crazy enough to think you are going to get a quality product, for such a cheap price. As the old saying goes, you get what you pay for. The worst part about that deceiving ad is that people think they are going to get quality parts in their purchase and all they do is put in cheap inferior crap, then blame the owner with over revving when it all goes to crap. This was one of biggest hates when I was in engine game, guys who use inferior parts and when there was a failure, blame them for driving the car basically, trust me I have many stories from over the years that I could write a book on similar dealings. Anyway good quality components in your heads and all should be great for your engine.

 

[turtle5353]

After 1 more email to Barnett I was able to convince him to help cover some of the costs. He said to send back the valves and he would refund the cost of the valves. "THATS IT " he said. That's fine with me.....something is better than nothing. He said I was attacking him and calling him a liar. I did no such thing! But whatever. If the valves he installed are such high quality, we will see how much he agrees to refund. I asked why he doesnt use Manely or other brand name valves. he said to call and ask where they come from, they are all the same. So I am assuming he used the cheap Procomp/Speedmaster valves. Just seems crazy to build high end heads with cheap components. I was already spending a ton of money on the engine build, a couple hundred bucks more would not have been an issue to get the quality parts!! So now to get all the valves sent back and see if he stands by his word for a refund. But until then I am having my engine builder move on with repairing the heads and building them properly.

 

[4Vforever]

After 1 more email to Barnett I was able to convince him to help cover some of the costs. He said to send back the valves and he would refund the cost of the valves. "THATS IT " he said. That's fine with me.....something is better than nothing. He said I was attacking him and calling him a liar. I did no such thing! But whatever. If the valves he installed are such high quality, we will see how much he agrees to refund. I asked why he doesnt use Manely or other brand name valves. he said to call and ask where they come from, they are all the same. So I am assuming he used the cheap Procomp/Speedmaster valves. Just seems crazy to build high end heads with cheap components. I was already spending a ton of money on the engine build, a couple hundred bucks more would not have been an issue to get the quality parts!! So now to get all the valves sent back and see if he stands by his word for a refund. But until then I am having my engine builder move on with repairing the heads and building them properly.

Personally, if you can/have time, I would get your engine guy measure everything (including valves) and take pics of it all, as then you'll have a reference if he comes back and says there's nothing wrong with the valves (he might get a decent brand one and say it's your valves and there's nothing wrong with them) I have personally seen people try shonky stuff like that first hand, one such engine was a Windsor stroker I done years ago. I originally got the heads first, as this guy was having dramas as soon as he reved it. No wonder, the springs seat pressures were around 100 (on a cam with over .600 lift) and the open pressures were an absolute joke, I could press them open with my hand. After disassembling the heads, everything was stuffed, cheap everything, valves, springs, you name it, all cheap junk. The best part was this guy charged him for brand new GT40P cylinder heads (I may use on a stocker, not a high perf build) ended up being a set of early 351 Windsor heads. When the guy tried to get the shop to fess up, no chance, everyone else was telling lies, when he went there with the evidence, well this guy back peddled pretty quick, but not much came of it as the owner had just had enough of dealing with him. I ended up with the bottom end after that and let's just say, I was amazed that it held together, let alone run a high12/ flat 13. The build looked like it was done by school kids. The only parts I saved from his original build was, the intake manifold (Vic Jr) and the pan (but I had it highly modified) Lets just say when I finished with his engine (338 cu in machined down 351 Cleveland crank) he couldn't believe the difference to what he was expecting, to what he should've had originally. After running the engine in and putting the inner springs in (solid f/t) we gave it one pull on the dyno (not tuned properly either) and it made just over 580 Hp at around 6000 RPM and about 460-70 lbs/ft of torque at around 5000 RPM (too long ago to remember exact numbers) no wonder he was wrapped and my engine actually cost him less than the other guys too.

But like I said, if you have evidence, this guy has nothing to come back with and may even decide to cover the costs (doubt it though) on the other parts. It's worth a shot.

 

[turtle5353]

Thanks 4V. My engine builder already said that he is going to check the spring pressures, installed heights, ect on EVERY valve and spring and write it all down for me. As far as the other guy saying there is nothing wrong with the valves, there is no way he can say that. The groove is almost gone on some of them, Stevie Wonder could make that call! LOL. We have to hit the tops with a file to deburr the valve to get it to come out of the head and not hurt the guides! I am curious to see what the spring pressures are. My builder said they are probably way out of spec. I will document, and photograph everything and send it back to Barnett and see what he says then. I am expecting nothing, but if I can get a couple bucks back I would be a happy camper.

 

[MeZapU]

We have to hit the tops with a file to deburr the valve to get it to come out of the head and not hurt the guides!

Deja vu. Cheap valves for sure. I think I still have one or two in my broken engine stuff pile.

I know my springs were stout enough as they were the ones spec'd out by Crane for the camshaft, as were the retainers and keepers. Your new shop should treat you good. Just trust their judgement and get them whatever good quality parts they request. Then you should have a top notch set of heads.

 

[johnwanzel]

I am so sorry to hear that this has happened. I want to thank you for sharing your experience with all of us. I will be building my 408c in the near future and after reading this, I will be sure NOT to use Barnett. If for no other reason, his "friendly staff and customer service", or the lack of lol. Hope you're on the road soon.

 

[turtle5353]

Mezapu, my engine builder is taking care of everything. He's ordering everything I need. I trust he will choose the correct and quality components.

I found an old email from Barnett that was sent to me and 4 others when we bought heads from him originally. He sent it to 5 of us that he was building heads for. He buys the afd heads bare and builds them for his customers. I emailed the other 4 guys that were on that email. I asked what their experience was with the heads. I just heard back from one gentleman today. He had a valve break and destroy his entire Cleveland stroker engine and 1 afd head. He told me that he contacted Barnett and afd several times and they would not return a call or an email. He was even trying to buy 1 new head and Barnett would not return his calls. And Barnett told me he "never" had 1 issue with these valves or heads. I'm calling bullshit on that. 2 out of 5 in that batch of heads had faulty valvetrain parts. I don't think that's a coincidence. And I haven't heard back from the other 3. I'm just happy he's willing to refund some of the cost for me.

 

[MeZapU]

I love that kind of detective work. Always the most reliable.

 

[4Vforever]

Wow, that's unbelievable, I suppose he's correct in saying he's never had a single problem with these cheap crap valves, sounds like he may have had several. Good detective work on your behalf and sending an email to all those guys and if you only get that one reply, then it was the one you're after, with unfortunately another guy with a failed engine. I was actually going to say to you about contacting AFD, but that seems useless as well, but not surprised at all as they've had some pretty negative feedback too. There are people on sites complaining about AFD not getting back to them with their problems also, apparently it was around the time (a few years ago) they started to have the heads cast in China (surprise, surprise, but originally cast in Australia) and had a lot of problems with them, apparently they would blame everything else for the problems. Apparently the problems have been fixed, but from when, I don't know. As for Barrett saying there's no problem with your valves, how the bloody hell would he know if he hasn't seen them. One thing I can never get my head around is why (except for profit) people would put cheap shit parts in high performance engines. When problems arise like yours or worse, the first thing the say is the old "over revved" thing (seen this personally on more than one occasion) as they know most people have no idea and just believe their big BS spill, hoping to suck more money out of them. Unfortunately the downside is it leaves a bad taste in so many people's mouths that they are disillusioned with the whole hobby and never have anything to do with it again as they feel like everyone is out to rob them. I have seen Barnett advertise on eBay here and wondered how guys like this can build engines of this caliber for the money. It seems my hunches were correct, you can't unless you are cutting corners somewhere. Thank god you never took your car to the strip to see how it would go, I think you'd be having a much different thread now. As I said make a reference of everything and take pics of all parts and measuring of them, including filing the burrs off your valves so you can get them out of the heads. Here's hoping you can get something out of him for those crap components.

 

[will e]

I am really glad you caught this before it took out your engine.

I use a local builder and let him supply the parts. He rebuilt the engine for my wife's liberty. It dropped a valve seat shortly afterward. Turns out this is a 'common' issue with the early 3.7 power tech engines. It didn't take out the engine but messed up the valve and of course the seat. He offered to come over and help pull the head. He replaced all of the seats and gave me new gaskets and head bolts. No charge for any of it.

This Barnett guy sounds like a jerk. I know that high performance stuff doesn't come with a warranty and he probably has to deal with idiots who do abuse their stuff but at some point he needs to be a stand up guy and admit he messed up using some bad parts.

 

[turtle5353]

Just a few more pics for you guys to check out. Found a lot of the valve tips to be messed up at the groove. The keepers were digging into the high quality stainless. Several of the keepers were cracked all the way around and very close to coming apart completely. Some of the spring cups were broken and worn badly. CRAZY!! I got VERY VERY LUCKY!! Sent a few pics to Barnett. We will see how he replies. I am planning on boxing everything up and sending it back to him tomorrow.

 

[barnett468]

.

Ok, your parts are chinese . . if the valves are stainless, the tips are not hardened like they should be which is why the tips are messed up from the rollers . . non hardened tips on stainless valves need lash caps.

all manly parts are ok . . and comp springs, retainers, and spring cups are ok.

 

[4Vforever]

Wow, you definitely dodged a major disaster there as those valves look like they're made from poorer quality stainless steel than cheap sets of stainless steel cutlery you but at K-mart. By the look of the high quality crap fitted to your heads and what's been been posted in other forums, I'd say you got the Speedmaster garbage. I hope that the guy you bought these assembled heads from does the right thing and gives you your money back for these crap parts, but you will probably get the old "over revved" or "it's done way more milage than you're letting on" routine, rather than admit assembling the heads with cheap Chinese crap. As for lash caps, no good lash cap was going to stop the damage that was going on with your parts except for the valve tip itself and with today material technologies, I thought they would have been a part that's basically disappeared from today's engines. I remember many years ago on a SB Chrysler I looked at for a guy, the W2 heads on it were fitted with the wrong length valves and he just wanted to put on lash caps. Well let's just say those caps (against my strong recommendations) ended up making a huge mess of the engine, as I think they must've been made of old tin cans or something, as they pounded out and some disintegrated, some broke and ended up through the engine at high RPM (around the 8000 mark, too long ago now) I remember asking what crap he put in there, when he wanted it fixed correctly this time (better late than never) and remember him saying he got them from a supplier in Sydney (that were well known for selling cheap crap) and they just came in a plastic bag without a name on them. Anyway hope it all goes well for you and your heads now, will be the what they should've been in the first place, fitted with quality parts made to handle the job.

 

[turtle5353]

Well guys I got a call from the machine shop. Good news is they are done and we are just waiting on the custom head gaskets to be made. Bad news is we got into a little more work than we thought. Once they checked the heads over a little more They decided to do a full valve job and cut the seats. While they were in there they blended the bowls and did a little bit of port work to them also. These guys do VERY nice work and went above and beyond. I should have no trouble from here on out!! So with all new Ferrea valves, Comp beehive springs, comp reatiners and cups, valve job, porting and polish, blended bowls, and custom head gaskets we came out of this around $1300 poorer. But im 100% OK with that. I now have top of the line components in my heads ready to rock and roll. He said I should be able to feel the difference with the worked heads! Like close to 600HP wasn't enough LOL! I got delayed sending back the old parts to Barnett but they will be shipping out today after work. See if he stands behind his statement of replacing the cost of the valves. The new Ferrea valves ran me close to $500. I doubt I will see that much out of him but anything at this point is better than nothing. So by this time next week I should hear back from him and have my newly repaired heads on and up and running! I will keep you guys posted. And by the way anyone in the Pittsburgh area or surrounding area looking to have a good motor built, you wont go wrong with Denny Ashcraft @ Ashcraft Speed and Marine.

Thanks Kevin

 

[DK73]

Wow that is so bad stuff they Make! I'm not a fan of products from China!! I hope that company's will learn off all the bad historys off problems with there non control off the production :-( They just want to make as much as possible off Nothing!! And just don't care... Regards Lars DK73


But I am happy to hear that you soon get the engine running B-) Regards Lars DK73

 

[4Vforever]

Glad to hear that the heads are done and this time with quality components. As for the $1300 cost this time around, considering all those parts and the cost of machining and assembly is an absolute bargain and considering what the outcome could have been, well that price is now cheap insurance. Now for something funny, a guy I know of asked me what I thought of these engines advertised on eBay, turned out to be, that's right, Barnett Performance, so I showed him the "endorsement" of this thread and needless to say, one less sale to him. I keep getting asked to build engines for people again, but really have just had enough of it since getting out of the trade, plus to busy trying to other things, let alone build engines for other people. Bet you're itching at the bit to get your engine back together now and taking it for that first drive. Well everything should be all good now and should be hassle free for you and would right if you decided to give it a decent rev, if you decide too. All the best with it and keep us informed with how it all goes from here on in.

Wow that is so bad stuff they Make! I'm not a fan of products from China!! I hope that company's will learn off all the bad historys off problems with there non control off the production :-( They just want to make as much as possible off Nothing!! And just don't care... Regards Lars DK73


But I am happy to hear that you soon get the engine running B-) Regards Lars DK73

Well Lars, I too am no fan of cheap Chinese crap. The problem with the cheap Chinese stuff is that it is made to a price and not to a quality and those who sell it don't care because they know there's another sucker to buy this stuff all of the time. The other side of it is the people who buy it, now seriously how do expect a part to hold up in a performance application that is less than half the price of a well known brand of performance product, you can't. Then it's the other side of the coin like what's happened here, someone goes to company and buys a product and is expecting quality parts to be put in, the company is a shady guy that puts in cheap Chinese crap in their products and sells them to the customer as quality products going into them, because they know the customer most of the time has know idea of what products are put in there, when it all goes to crap and customer calls him up to say there was a major problem, they turn around with the old over revved (like they tried here) routine and they know that's how they get out of it, then usually try to sweet talk the customer into sending the engine back to them to "try to do them a favour" and rip them off all over again. Personally witnessed this situation too many times over here and can't believe guys like this are still in business.

 

[MotoArts]

Now for something funny, a guy I know of asked me what I thought of these engines advertised on eBay, turned out to be, that's right, Barnett Performance, so I showed him the "endorsement" of this thread and needless to say, one less sale to him.

So glad to hear of a little bit of redemption for Kevin, and saving your guy from a potential world of heartache.

That one lost sale hopefully cost Barnett more than if he would have if he'd have properly taken care of Kevin in the first place.

Barnett still has dirty laundry to his credit, and his wallet hasn't grown from it. Aaaaaahh yes, the system at work.

Nice job, 4V

 

[Don C]

Now for something funny, a guy I know of asked me what I thought of these engines advertised on eBay, turned out to be, that's right, Barnett Performance, so I showed him the "endorsement" of this thread and needless to say, one less sale to him.

That one lost sale hopefully cost Barnett more than if he would have if he'd have properly taken care of Kevin in the first place.

Barnett still has dirty laundry to his credit, and his wallet hasn't grown from it. Aaaaaahh yes, the system at work.

Nice job, 4V

+1, word-of-mouth has made and broken many companies, there's enough of us forum members and forum lurkers to put a hurt on this guy.