Can't get my engine to quit "pinging".

[boilermaster]

csgt428.
black = 9 degrees = 18 crankshaft= .373'' od.
you need slightly less
fbo ignition ebay sells slightly larger bushings (less crankshaft degrees)
they sell a 7, = 14 degrees crankshaft and a 10 kit
FBO ignition 1 541 942 5980
ps black, commonly sold in msd kit would allow you to get to 14degrees initial and 32 total.
Boilermaster

 

[Stanglover]

I've been following this along, but now I'm totally lost.
This post seems to be jumping from one car/engine to another.

For my money, I'd pull out that Mallory and ditch the thing. Buy a DuraSpark distributor from Performance Distributors (I think that's the name) that they can set up for your motor specs. (or do it yourself)
Failing that, find the best Motorcraft/Autolite 351C distributor from your 'stock' and rebuild it. On my 71 4V 351C with cc heads, I built mine with a 10L limit slot (had to weld a 15L and recut it, = 20 degs. crank) with one Ford heavy spring set slightly loose and one lighter Mr.Gasket 925D. The initial is set at 14 degs. This dist. has an adjustable vac can, which is about 4 degrees on top. This equals 34 mechanical to 38 (ish) all in at 3K rpm. This is powered by a Pertronix Ignitor II with matching coil, 8mm spiral wound copper wires.
Also, I would question that 850 carb, imo way too much carb for a 351C. I run a 670 Holley that's about perfect.

 

[csgt428]

csgt428,
sorry your math is wrong if you want 32 total and 16 initial you would want 8 distributor.
distributor degrees = X2c at the crankshaft.
I f you verify you have a replaceable type bushing, I think I can find my secret bushing paperwork
that C9ZX told me about.
Boilermaster

You must be measuring it some other way. I go off the degrees reading on damper with my light. When I set it at 8* idling it goes to 32* total on my damper when I rev it to 3k or so rpms. I have the damper marked also...so I can tell where it's at. I've just been subtracting 8* from 32* to end up saying my dizzy has 24* total mech adv in it. Isn't that the way you are supposed to do it?

 

[csgt428]

csgt428,
sorry your math is wrong if you want 32 total and 16 initial you would want 8 distributor.
distributor degrees = X2c at the crankshaft.
I f you verify you have a replaceable type bushing, I think I can find my secret bushing paperwork
that C9ZX told me about.
Boilermaster

OK. You must be measuring it some other way. I go off the degrees reading on damper with my light. When I set it at 8* idling it goes to 32* total on my damper when I rev it to 3k or so rpms. I have the damper marked also...so I can tell where it's at. I've just been subtracting 8* from 32* to end up saying my dizzy has 24* total mech adv in it. Isn't that the way you are supposed to do it?

 

[csgt428]

I've been following this along, but now I'm totally lost.
This post seems to be jumping from one car/engine to another.

For my money, I'd pull out that Mallory and ditch the thing. Buy a DuraSpark distributor from Performance Distributors (I think that's the name) that they can set up for your motor specs. (or do it yourself)
Failing that, find the best Motorcraft/Autolite 351C distributor from your 'stock' and rebuild it. On my 71 4V 351C with cc heads, I built mine with a 10L limit slot (had to weld a 15L and recut it, = 20 degs. crank) with one Ford heavy spring set slightly loose and one lighter Mr.Gasket 925D. The initial is set at 14 degs. This dist. has an adjustable vac can, which is about 4 degrees on top. This equals 34 mechanical to 38 (ish) all in at 3K rpm. This is powered by a Pertronix Ignitor II with matching coil, 8mm spiral wound copper wires.
Also, I would question that 850 carb, imo way too much carb for a 351C. I run a 670 Holley that's about perfect.

Sorry about that, I was getting confused myself by working on two cars at the same time. I will go to the Boss 302 site to talk about the other car. I've edited it and it's all about this 351/408 stroker in my 72 R code now. The big carb was suggested by the builder, or maybe it was 800cfm. It is a stroker with a roller cam. I told him I wanted it to be able to rev to at least 7500 and 8K rpm occasionally.
But looking at my cam specs, I listed them earlier, I might be running out of power by then anyway. Not sure...since my tach quit working. I'm not running headers yet either, though I have a set. I have lots of different carbs here I could try. 670 Holley, 750 Demon or 2 diff 750 Holleys one is DP street brawler, 800 DP, 850 DP on there now....

Not sure what to do about the dizzy yet. I have the 3.91 gears in it also so the 8* initial doesn't seem to bother it much...

 

[boilermaster]

csgt428,
Base timing is always measured at the damper
total timing is always measured at the damper
When it comes to degrees in the distributor it will always be half of crankshaft degrees you want.
So if we look at Hemikillers post you basically had DOUBLE the mechanical advance you needed in your distributor.
Your formula should look like this:
16 initial + 8 distributor = 32 degrees total on the damper, to my knowledge that is the way it has always been measured, get an 8 degree distributor advance bushing and you should be able to run 16 degrees base timing at idle.

 

[Bill Perkins]

Those are two I've thought of selling. Some I wouldn't even consider selling like my 66 and 68 fastbacks. If I sold the 70 Q code I'd keep the 69 Mach and vice versa...

Is you 70 Boss a running and driving car? What color? Original? Car History? Could we see some pictures? My dream car is a 70 Boss.

70 Boss 302, factory shaker, tach, fold down, PS, PDB optioned, survivor

 

[csgt428]

Is you 70 Boss a running and driving car? What color? Original? Car History? Could we see some pictures? My dream car is a 70 Boss.

70 Boss 302, factory shaker, tach, fold down, PS, PDB optioned, survivor

Yes it is running and driving. It's med lime metallic. Pretty original. Don't know any history except that the PO had it for 20 years or so and never drove it except to a few car shows. I always wanted one also so when "Mustang Andy" from Spokane Wa. decided to sell it I jumped on it this last fall. He was pretty firm on his price but I decided to get it anyway when he included all the matching number drivetrain parts that weren't installed at the time. I just put the original Dated "N" case rear differential back in it a couple days ago. The original partial vin stamped tranny is being rebuilt and I will be putting it in when it's done. It has a close ratio Boss RUG-AW1 tranny in it now so there will be some nice extras once I get it back together with the original parts. Has a set of D1ZE over the counter heads on it now but I have the original properly dated D0ZE-A heads to put back on it. The only major parts it's really missing are the original distributor and one exhaust manifold that Andy hasn't found... and also the original 31spl axels. I just bought a new set and installed them along with the rear end differential. The block is also original w the partial vin stamp on it and a D0ZE-B casting #on the block and properly dated. It has been converted to a solid roller cam. I had to put in a new gas tank, but I saved the old California emissions tank and associated hardware. I've been doing a Lot to it since I got it to make it a good running and driving car. Working on getting a "Bog" out of the carb right now, which is also original to the car... Still Lots to do... suspension and body/paint. I think I'll leave the body/paint till the future though. I'll try and upload some pics.... Success! That one pic of the rockers was what I saw after taking it out on one of the test drives! I limped it home and promptly adjusted the valves and Tightened the keepers on all the rockers, one had backed off... I moved the oil pressure gauge to the middle of the dash from the steering column after it blew the plastic line and pumped all my oil out under the hood. I replaced the plastic line with a copper line. lots of other stories to tell......replacing the heater core was NOT fun. I've also replaced the distributor w a Mallory Unilite and rebuilt the shaker with a new vac motor, flapper and seal since these pics were taken... Rebuilt carb also...then replaced the old cracked tires w new Cooper Cobras and replaced the worn out shocks with new KYB gas adjusts. It's starting to wake up......

 

[csgt428]

csgt428,
Base timing is always measured at the damper
total timing is always measured at the damper
When it comes to degrees in the distributor it will always be half of crankshaft degrees you want.
So if we look at Hemikillers post you basically had DOUBLE the mechanical advance you needed in your distributor.
Your formula should look like this:
16 initial + 8 distributor = 32 degrees total on the damper, to my knowledge that is the way it has always been measured, get an 8 degree distributor advance bushing and you should be able to run 16 degrees base timing at idle.

OK, I think I understand what you are saying. I had no idea that you were talking about total advance with the distributor out of engine and on a machine. I've never altered a distributor before except messing with the springs and advance curve..... faster, slower etc. In other words, I'm a total Newb. So, when/if I buy parts I need to remember what you told me about multiplying x2 the advance parts I buy. Basically, if I want 16* initial, and 32*total, I tell the parts guy I want to buy parts that will give me 8* mechanical advance IN distributor, not at crank....

 

[boilermaster]

csgt,
yes you got it.
I was able to change out my advance limiter bushing while still installed, but one needs really nimble fingers. the instructions will tell you to remove the distribuor, not necessary.
Boilermaster

 

[Bill Perkins]

Yes it is running and driving. It's med lime metallic. Pretty original. Don't know any history except that the PO had it for 20 years or so and never drove it except to a few car shows. I always wanted one also so when "Mustang Andy" from Spokane Wa. decided to sell it I jumped on it this last fall. He was pretty firm on his price but I decided to get it anyway when he included all the matching number drivetrain parts that weren't installed at the time. I just put the original Dated "N" case rear differential back in it a couple days ago. The original partial vin stamped tranny is being rebuilt and I will be putting it in when it's done. It has a close ratio Boss RUG-AW1 tranny in it now so there will be some nice extras once I get it back together with the original parts. Has a set of D1ZE over the counter heads on it now but I have the original properly dated D0ZE-A heads to put back on it. The only major parts it's really missing are the original distributor and one exhaust manifold that Andy hasn't found... and also the original 31spl axels. I just bought a new set and installed them along with the rear end differential. The block is also original w the partial vin stamp on it and a D0ZE-B casting #on the block and properly dated. It has been converted to a solid roller cam. I had to put in a new gas tank, but I saved the old California emissions tank and associated hardware. I've been doing a Lot to it since I got it to make it a good running and driving car. Working on getting a "Bog" out of the carb right now, which is also original to the car... Still Lots to do... suspension and body/paint. I think I'll leave the body/paint till the future though. I'll try and upload some pics.... Success! That one pic of the rockers was what I saw after taking it out on one of the test drives! I limped it home and promptly adjusted the valves and Tightened the keepers on all the rockers, one had backed off... I moved the oil pressure gauge to the middle of the dash from the steering column after it blew the plastic line and pumped all my oil out under the hood. I replaced the plastic line with a copper line. lots of other stories to tell......replacing the heater core was NOT fun. I've also replaced the distributor w a Mallory Unilite and rebuilt the shaker with a new vac motor, flapper and seal since these pics were taken... Rebuilt carb also...then replaced the old cracked tires w new Cooper Cobras and replaced the worn out shocks with new KYB gas adjusts. It's starting to wake up......

I Love Your 70 Boss 302, so very nice and you are putting it back very close to original, So Cool, thanks for the pictures and car description.

 

[AcesArneson]

OK. Not many miles at all. Probably less than 100. It may in fact still have oil in it from the builder but since I can't remember I'm going to change it per your recommendation. I checked the damper that came off and it looks like a 28oz balanced one. According to my parts list my rings are FED R890240 premium and has Icon .040 over, forged pistons part # SVL IC877 .040. I may have been trying to advance the timing to much initially because the tune spec sticker in the engine compartment called for 16* at idle. I'll check what dizzy I'm using...

Check your build sheet where it lists the cam and see if any advance was added into the build there. He may have advanced the timing, on the cam itself, which would account for why you are pinging with the original spec advance. Whatever advance the builder added in will have to be accounted for.

 

[cjstaci]

Yes it is running and driving. It's med lime metallic. Pretty original. Don't know any history except that the PO had it for 20 years or so and never drove it except to a few car shows. I always wanted one also so when "Mustang Andy" from Spokane Wa. decided to sell it I jumped on it this last fall. He was pretty firm on his price but I decided to get it anyway when he included all the matching number drivetrain parts that weren't installed at the time. I just put the original Dated "N" case rear differential back in it a couple days ago. The original partial vin stamped tranny is being rebuilt and I will be putting it in when it's done. It has a close ratio Boss RUG-AW1 tranny in it now so there will be some nice extras once I get it back together with the original parts. Has a set of D1ZE over the counter heads on it now but I have the original properly dated D0ZE-A heads to put back on it. The only major parts it's really missing are the original distributor and one exhaust manifold that Andy hasn't found... and also the original 31spl axels. I just bought a new set and installed them along with the rear end differential. The block is also original w the partial vin stamp on it and a D0ZE-B casting #on the block and properly dated. It has been converted to a solid roller cam. I had to put in a new gas tank, but I saved the old California emissions tank and associated hardware. I've been doing a Lot to it since I got it to make it a good running and driving car. Working on getting a "Bog" out of the carb right now, which is also original to the car... Still Lots to do... suspension and body/paint. I think I'll leave the body/paint till the future though. I'll try and upload some pics.... Success! That one pic of the rockers was what I saw after taking it out on one of the test drives! I limped it home and promptly adjusted the valves and Tightened the keepers on all the rockers, one had backed off... I moved the oil pressure gauge to the middle of the dash from the steering column after it blew the plastic line and pumped all my oil out under the hood. I replaced the plastic line with a copper line. lots of other stories to tell......replacing the heater core was NOT fun. I've also replaced the distributor w a Mallory Unilite and rebuilt the shaker with a new vac motor, flapper and seal since these pics were taken... Rebuilt carb also...then replaced the old cracked tires w new Cooper Cobras and replaced the worn out shocks with new KYB gas adjusts. It's starting to wake up......

Love the Boss 302. The car looks great as it is. I wouldn’t paint it, as it is you can drive it, have lots of fun and not have a cow if you get a scratch or rock chip. Just my opinion.

 

[AcesArneson]

Sorry about that, I was getting confused myself by working on two cars at the same time. I will go to the Boss 302 site to talk about the other car. I've edited it and it's all about this 351/408 stroker in my 72 R code now. The big carb was suggested by the builder, or maybe it was 800cfm. It is a stroker with a roller cam. I told him I wanted it to be able to rev to at least 7500 and 8K rpm occasionally.
But looking at my cam specs, I listed them earlier, I might be running out of power by then anyway. Not sure...since my tach quit working. I'm not running headers yet either, though I have a set. I have lots of different carbs here I could try. 670 Holley, 750 Demon or 2 diff 750 Holleys one is DP street brawler, 800 DP, 850 DP on there now....

Not sure what to do about the dizzy yet. I have the 3.91 gears in it also so the 8* initial doesn't seem to bother it much...

Did you have the builder install lifter bore bushings? If this is a Cleveland I would be careful going over 6250 rpm without addressing the sloppy lifter bore bushing original spec. Are you using hydraulic lifters? I don’t know of any hydraulic lifters that will let you go to 8000 rpm.

 

[73pony]

For the Dizzy...

https://progressionignition.com/products/ols/products/ford-351c-v8-small-cap-distributor

Best single investment I made for my car.

 

[csgt428]

Love the Boss 302. The car looks great as it is. I wouldn’t paint it, as it is you can drive it, have lots of fun and not have a cow if you get a scratch or rock chip. Just my opinion.

Well..... that's a pic of its good side. The other side has been hit/creased almost the length of the car! I'll post a pic of the other side one of these days, but it's not pretty. Mostly the fender and door which are "fixable" but.... I do have a factory fender here in pretty nice shape but all my passenger doors have one problem or another. Plus then the paint wouldn't match.... so, I'll just leave it alone for now.

 

[csgt428]

Did you have the builder install lifter bore bushings? If this is a Cleveland I would be careful going over 6250 rpm without addressing the sloppy lifter bore bushing original spec. Are you using hydraulic lifters? I don’t know of any hydraulic lifters that will let you go to 8000 rpm.

No lifter bore bushings. Yes, it's a hydraulic roller cam. Possibly won't rev that high anyway..... However, In another engine they built, a 331 hyd roller stroker based on a 5.0 block I've had it to 7500-7700rpm with no missing.... in fact I think it went to 8000rpm once or twice while shifting it..... but that might have just been tach needle "inertia" since it was going up so quickly....

 

[boilermaster]

csgt428,
Aces is pretty much spot on 6,250 you might get it higher, but will not be making power
I have more camshaft than you, set my shift light @ 6,250 and rev limiter @6,500.
Boilermaster

 

[csgt428]

For the Dizzy...

https://progressionignition.com/products/ols/products/ford-351c-v8-small-cap-distributor

Best single investment I made for my car.

Went and looked at some reviews for that. Wow! I couldn't find a single bad review in a quick search and everyone loved it. I'll definitely be thinking about getting one. Thanks

 

[csgt428]

csgt428,
Aces is pretty much spot on 6,250 you might get it higher, but will not be making power
I have more camshaft than you, set my shift light @ 6,250 and rev limiter @6,500.
Boilermaster

If memory serves, I've had it up to 7000rpm the first few times test driving it before the tach quit but yeh, it definitely seemed like it was past its peak HP. 6000rpm would probably be better to shift at. I may just strap a stand alone Tach to the steering column if a dizzy change doesn't get it going again. I do have a complete 71 instrument cluster with tach but the harness plugs are different btwn the the 71 and 72. Perhaps I could put just the 71 tach in the 72 cluster......