Good Day/ Bad Day

[kcmash]

oday was an interesting day.  

1) Tried a new shop to align the Mach 1 since I was getting unreasonable play in the wheel around the Straight Ahead direction, probably 10-15 degrees of slop. I do NOT remember this slop before I tore the car down for restoration years ago.  They put it on the rack and said they wouldn't change a thing on the alignment, its about as good as you can ask for.

     a) This is my original tilt column, original gear box and original rag joint.

     b) After total restoration and putting the whole thing together I did a "String Alignment" in the driveway with jack stands, twine, a level, and a tape measure. ( So am I the geek hero here or what?  My string alignment is as good as the machine can get?  Oh yeah, I rock.)

     c) The guys at the shop are classic guys that work on classic cars.  Jim at the shop walked me through the tests he did on the car and isolated the steering drift to a problem in the column.  After watching some WCCC videos on steering, I understand why he can isolate it to the column.

So dilemma 1.  I believe I pulled the lower shaft off the upper shaft to change firewall plates.  Having the lower shaft on backwards is one of the "slopportunities" in a tilt column.  (Yes I have already registered "Slopportunity" with USPTO)  So at this point I need to pull the column to at least turn the shaft around.  When I pull it should I send it to WCCC for a rebuild?  I have an NOS tilt column Turnsignal switch, should I try that or send to WCCC to install.  My option is to just look at the column myself and analyze the slop, but I figure it needs to come out.

2) The 4-speed gearbox seems to have a pretty significant whine in 2nd and 3rd.  I notice it some in 1st too.  4th gear is pretty quiet and nice.  3rd gear seems the worst.  Any suggestions or theories on the whining.  I am guessing the countershaft since 4th is so smooth.  Or it could be the input shaft since that is most firmly supported in 4th gear.

3) Finally, the fast idle problem.  Fast Idle is set around 1400 rpm which is needed to get the thing warmed up when cold, of course it sounds a little too high.  So the problem is this.  When driving for the first 5 to 10 minutes the engine RPM goes up to 1400 hundred every time I press the clutch pedal.  So it races higher between each gear.  

     a) I can adjust the fast idle and the choke to rum a little lower RPM and pull off quicker.  Am using the heater hose choke warmer, not electric.

     b) I feel like the car does not quickly return to idle after revving.  For a new engine I expect it to rev and unrev really quickly.  It seems be a little slow returning to idle after a rev.  Not sure if I am clouded by the choke/fast idle issue or if there is something else.  Any thoughts on slow return to idle?

kcmash

 

[Hemikiller]

#2 - sounds like the cluster gear countershaft needles to me. First thing to check is the fluid level, they get noisy if they're low. If that's not it, time to call Dan Williams for a Master Rebuild kit and get to it.

#3 - choke should disengage with a minute or so. If not, did you hook up the hot air tubes from the manifold? The heater hose isn't sufficient to warm the choke quickly by itself, and in my interpretation, was only there to slow the rate the choke cooled off.

 

[jpaz]

#1 sounds like something that happened to me. I got a front end alignment after the restoration on my car. I had an older very experienced mechanic that knew older cars. Anyway after the alignment was done he told me that it was going to be worse feeling than before cause my pitman arm was worn out and needed to be replaced.

Long story short, once I replaced the pitman arm I had just about perfect steering. Car went nice and straight with no wandering like before. I did rebuild the rag joint about that same time too. Those two things made a huge difference in the steering of my car. It’s been about 5 years since I did this and it’s still good.

 

[Stanglover]

#1 steering; I can't comment on the tilt column as I've never had one, but if your "guy' say it's (partly) your column, then I'd make sure that's right first. Then I'd look at the rest of the steering system. Check all the joints and replace suspect ones if necessary. If that is all good, then I would move on to the box which I assume is power. You said you replaced or repaired the rag joint. Personal experience taught me that the rebuild kits are just so-so, but as you have a tilt column, maybe all you can do, I'm not sure. So, if the PS box is original, has it ever been rebuilt? If not I think definitely time to get that done. Maybe switch to fast ratio at the same time. If you fancy doing it yourself, you can buy rebuild kits from RockAuto or other vendors, The problem is there are so many other possible worn parts that are not easily addressed at home. There are several posts from others and myself on rebuilding PS boxes.

As far as the high revs and slow return, I'm assuming you have an Autolite 4300 still on your car as you said you don't have an electric choke.

As you have a 4 speed, you might need to put a stronger spring on the return. This can be double edged if you put too much tension on the shaft.

A 4 speed needs a quick drop off of revs when changing gears as you know. On mine with a Holley SA 670, I have double return springs for that reason. There are other possibilities with the set up of the carb, like incorrect throttle plate adjustment, curb idle screw set wrong (too high) or the choke adjuster is way off. Another possibility is the throttle shaft(s) are binding. I'm speculating here to be honest as my 4300 carb is sitting on a shelf and that's where it's gonna stay.

 

[kcmash]

Some clarificaitions:

1a) I did NOT replace the rag joint.  I mentioned that to the mechanic noted the Rag joint problems I have seen on this site.  He said he was aware of that problem and checked the joint and he could verify there were no problems with the rag joint.  He also checked all the suspension components to verify I had tightened everything correctly.  This included the Idler arm, wheel bearings, ball joints and tie rod ends.  It's all new and tight.  So he verified all this and said that he isolated the slop to the steering column.  Based on his information and my work, I believe him.

2) I had rebuilt this 4-speed years ago with a Dan Williams kit.  I used parts from the tranny, and had to replace gear #3.  So the short answer is, I should have new bearings throughout.  The fluid, I need to check!  Great suggestion.

3)  I have a Holley Ultra carb and no choke stove tubes to the choke,  I appreciate the suggestions on additional springs and further adjustments to the carb.  Will be able to do better adjustments when I can actually drive it more. Then I can more readily assess the adjustments.  I am not using a spacer either.  The chances of plates dragging is a definite possibility.  Wonder If I should do a 1/4 inch spacer gasket to help out.  I do want to watch my height with the ram air.  

kcmash

 

[Stanglover]

Some clarificaitions:

1a) I did NOT replace the rag joint.  I mentioned that to the mechanic noted the Rag joint problems I have seen on this site.  He said he was aware of that problem and checked the joint and he could verify there were no problems with the rag joint.  He also checked all the suspension components to verify I had tightened everything correctly.  This included the Idler arm, wheel bearings, ball joints and tie rod ends.  It's all new and tight.  So he verified all this and said that he isolated the slop to the steering column.  Based on his information and my work, I believe him.

2) I had rebuilt this 4-speed years ago with a Dan Williams kit.  I used parts from the tranny, and had to replace gear #3.  So the short answer is, I should have new bearings throughout.  The fluid, I need to check!  Great suggestion.

3)  I have a Holley Ultra carb and no choke stove tubes to the choke,  I appreciate the suggestions on additional springs and further adjustments to the carb.  Will be able to do better adjustments when I can actually drive it more. Then I can more readily assess the adjustments.  I am not using a spacer either.  The chances of plates dragging is a definite possibility.  Wonder If I should do a 1/4 inch spacer gasket to help out.  I do want to watch my height with the ram air.  

kcmash

 My apology on thinking I had read you changed the rag joint. As all else has been done, that's good to know. As mentioned, I have zero knowledge on tilt columns, so I would trust my mechanic. However, I think if that proves not to be the issue, then for sure look at a rebuilt PS box, there's simply nothing else it could be.... is there?

On your carb, again not familiar with that one, I'll have to look it up. When I had my Holley 670 on before I added a 1" fiber spacer (I have room!) with just a gasket, the plates were catching slightly on the stock manifold bore. The bore of the 670 is a bit bigger than the intake primary bore. I made my spacer and actually taper bored the 4 holes so there would be no step. A 1/4" insulated spacer I don't think would be a problem height wise and would alleviate any catching of the primary plates if that is what's happening.

Good luck getting it sorted.

 

[droptop73]

You will always hear a bit of gear whine in 1st through 3rd as the power is transmitting through the gear mesh in the countershaft. Although it's a helical cut gear the helix is very low. In 4th gear the input shaft and the output shaft are locked together so no noise.

 

[Stanglover]

Some clarificaitions:

3)  I have a Holley Ultra carb and no choke stove tubes to the choke,  I appreciate the suggestions on additional springs and further adjustments to the carb.  Will be able to do better adjustments when I can actually drive it more. Then I can more readily assess the adjustments.  I am not using a spacer either.  The chances of plates dragging is a definite possibility.  Wonder If I should do a 1/4 inch spacer gasket to help out.  I do want to watch my height with the ram air.  

kcmash

 kc, I took a quick look at the Holley Ultra carb line. I see that some are electric choke, some are manual. However, you did not specifically say which one you have. I did not spend a lot of time, but I did notice they ain't chap!! The Ultra comes in many types and configurations, let alone pretty colors. Actually, they look to be quite good carbs. I thought I'd just do a quick reply to let you know I had taken a look at the Ultra line-up

Please keep me/us updated.

 

[Carolina_Mountain_Mustangs]

On the tilt column I have 5 tilt columns so I have some experience. Never really had any issue but my 73 vert I needed to put in turn signal and I had the dash out of the car so I went into the tilt. I believe I did a thread on it years ago and scanned the Ford manual to the forum. I will go look and see if I can find it.

The most common issue in a tilt column is the pivot and they do make slightly over size pins for that. I did not take that apart it does show a special tool in the manual.

I think I saw that you had pulled the lower shaft out of the upper? It telescopes. I did not pull mine out that I remember it was like 4 or 5 years back. My dad had a Maverick that was driven forever. The steering got sloppy in it and I took the column out and I would expect it to be similar to the Mustang. It had a tube or sleeve that went over the lower shaft. So in a crash the column would not be driven into your chest but would collapse inside the column. I ended up setting the length where it was needed and brazed the two together just to keep the beater going. 

I will look at the shop manual and see if I can see how it is made. 

On the install of the turn signal switch no black science there. The tilt release is built into the turn signal lever so big difference to standard. There are different ones 71 & 72 are the same 73 is different. Wiring is not same. You have to pull the red plastic piece out of the curved plug going under dash. That allows each of the pin connectors to be removed and the new put back. 

I greased the ball bearings and all of the pivots and moving points of the column with the Lucas Oil Red N Tacky #2 grease. Let me go look for the old thread. 

If when you get into it you need a rag joint I got mine at Advance Auto from the Help rack worked fine you go have to use your old forged pieces from the gear box and the shaft. It was a Dorman part I think I put the part number in the previous post.

EDIT

Ok found part of the info. I got the rag joint at O-Rileys not Advance. Here is link to rag joint info. 

https://www.7173mustangs.com/thread-rag-joint-replacement-suggestion

I will go look for the tilt info.

SECOND EDIT

I found the post with the Ford manual scans. I do believe that the design of the Mustang is like the Maverick but do not interchange of course. 

I am thinking maybe the upper sleeve in your might have split. Just a guess. Here is link go down several post in the thread and you will see the scans.

https://www.7173mustangs.com/thread-tilt-steering-column--34210?highlight=tilt+steering+column

 

[kcmash]

OK, Update on eh steering.  I was preparing to remove the column today and I gave he rag join a twist.  I found the opposite of the shop. There was Zero lash in the column side, all the play was on the steering box between the rag joint and the pittman.

Question: Have any of you had luck taking lash out with the lash adjustment on the steering gear box?  I gave it about 1/2 turn and it seemed to tighten it up, but I have not road tested it yet.

kcmash

 

[Stanglover]

OK, Update on eh steering.  I was preparing to remove the column today and I gave he rag join a twist.  I found the opposite of the shop. There was Zero lash in the column side, all the play was on the steering box between the rag joint and the pittman.

Question: Have any of you had luck taking lash out with the lash adjustment on the steering gear box?  I gave it about 1/2 turn and it seemed to tighten it up, but I have not road tested it yet.

kcmash

Ok, This is going in the direction I first thought, steering box. You can take some play out by adjusting the sector shaft hex screw and nut, but be very careful. Too much and the steering will seem to stick, a possibly dangerous situation. I would go no more than 1/4 turn at a time, but be warned. I take it we are talking about a POWER STEERING box? All you mentioned was "steering box".

Bentworker and myself have posted numerous times on rebuilding PS boxes. Personally, I would recommend removing the box and either getting an exchange or as a repair and return. If your PS box (or gear) is original on the Mach 1, it ought to be a SPA-T or V or if 73 AD or AF on the tag. Anything else and it is a stock 17.5:1 fixed ratio. You want a variable ratio or go for a 12.7:1 fast ratio. There are several good rebuilders, but at this time, I don't have the info close at hand.

I or someone else for sure will get back on that.

 

[kcmash]

OK, Update on eh steering.  I was preparing to remove the column today and I gave he rag join a twist.  I found the opposite of the shop. There was Zero lash in the column side, all the play was on the steering box between the rag joint and the pittman.

Question: Have any of you had luck taking lash out with the lash adjustment on the steering gear box?  I gave it about 1/2 turn and it seemed to tighten it up, but I have not road tested it yet.

kcmash

Ok, This is going in the direction I first thought, steering box. You can take some play out by adjusting the sector shaft hex screw and nut, but be very careful. Too much and the steering will seem to stick, a possibly dangerous situation. I would go no more than 1/4 turn at a time, but be warned. I take it we are talking about a POWER STEERING box? All you mentioned was "steering box".

Bentworker and myself have posted numerous times on rebuilding PS boxes. Personally, I would recommend removing the box and either getting an exchange or as a repair and return. If your PS box (or gear) is original on the Mach 1, it ought to be a SPA-T or V or if 73 AD or AF on the tag. Anything else and it is a stock 17.5:1 fixed ratio. You want a variable ratio or go for a 12.7:1 fast ratio. There are several good rebuilders, but at this time, I don't have the info close at hand.

I or someone else for sure will get back on that.

OK, First off THANK YOU for the reply.

So I went about a 1/2 turn on the adjustment(clockwise).  It IS a Power Steering box, the Saginaw version, and is original to the car which is a November 70 build vehicle.  Of course as I am typing I am thinking now about the "Spare" power steering box I have.  I believe I used the original, but not positive.

So here is my question.  Should I not drive it after that adjustment?  Should I take a slow parking lot turn to turn to make sure I still have full travel? or should I just start it up and go turn to turn to see what I find?

This stuff sat for many years during restoration.  Not sure if it will "heal" or get worse.  One recent observation lately is the power steering cutting out randomly.  When warm, I can just kinda lose the power assist.  Let me know so I am safe!

kcmash

 

[Stanglover]

OK, Update on eh steering.  I was preparing to remove the column today and I gave he rag join a twist.  I found the opposite of the shop. There was Zero lash in the column side, all the play was on the steering box between the rag joint and the pittman.

Question: Have any of you had luck taking lash out with the lash adjustment on the steering gear box?  I gave it about 1/2 turn and it seemed to tighten it up, but I have not road tested it yet.

kcmash

Ok, This is going in the direction I first thought, steering box. You can take some play out by adjusting the sector shaft hex screw and nut, but be very careful. Too much and the steering will seem to stick, a possibly dangerous situation. I would go no more than 1/4 turn at a time, but be warned. I take it we are talking about a POWER STEERING box? All you mentioned was "steering box".

Bentworker and myself have posted numerous times on rebuilding PS boxes. Personally, I would recommend removing the box and either getting an exchange or as a repair and return. If your PS box (or gear) is original on the Mach 1, it ought to be a SPA-T or V or if 73 AD or AF on the tag. Anything else and it is a stock 17.5:1 fixed ratio. You want a variable ratio or go for a 12.7:1 fast ratio. There are several good rebuilders, but at this time, I don't have the info close at hand.

I or someone else for sure will get back on that.

OK, First off THANK YOU for the reply.

So I went about a 1/2 turn on the adjustment(clockwise).  It IS a Power Steering box, the Saginaw version, and is original to the car which is a November 70 build vehicle.  Of course as I am typing I am thinking now about the "Spare" power steering box I have.  I believe I used the original, but not positive.

So here is my question.  Should I not drive it after that adjustment?  Should I take a slow parking lot turn to turn to make sure I still have full travel? or should I just start it up and go turn to turn to see what I find?

This stuff sat for many years during restoration.  Not sure if it will "heal" or get worse.  One recent observation lately is the power steering cutting out randomly.  When warm, I can just kinda lose the power assist.  Let me know so I am safe!

kcmash

I would definitely drive it slow at first, just to get a feel for it. I had the exact problem, tried to remove slack by adjusting the sector shaft. When I turned the s/wheel left or right, it sort of stuck there, then centered. I backed off 1/4 turn and it was way better, but I still had about 2" of free play at the top of the s/wheel. On yours, I think to be safer, back it off a 1/4 turn and try it. If it helped but still seems loose, try another 1/4 and so on. If it jambs, it will be when you are turning and that could be really bad. The sector shaft ideally should only have a max total over center pre-load of about 8 -10 in lbs. and that has to be set up on a bench. What I found and also from talking to a rebuilder, it is the worm screw balls that need to be replaced. Ford actually listed 6 different sets for replacement balls, all measured to 5 decimals!! The incremental difference is very small. I'll not go into too much detail right now, too confusing, but you get the idea. That's why I would strongly suggest that if indeed it is the PS box that need to be rebuilt, to send it to a good rebuilder unless you have the necessary mechanical skills to do it yourself.

If you're not sure about what ratio box your 'spare" is, put a vise-grip lightly on the input shaft and count the turns. 4 LTL will be fixed ratio 3 1/8 TLT will be variable ratio.

On the last bit, losing power assist, to me that too tells me that possibly the seals on the rotation valve body are worn out and fluid is "leaking" between segments. I actually had a rotation valve pretty much loose all power to the right side. While I never totally found out why it was doing that, the only thing I found was the valve body and valve spool were .001" out of round and enough to cause it to stick, stopping the fluid from rotating it. You will never lose control of the car, just the power assist and that can be pretty scary if your not prepared for it.

Hope that helps without being too confusing,

 

[kcmash]

Geoff,

Thanks for the help.  I backed it off and it did OK, but i kinda screwed up the carb, so it was not a day to do a road test.

Holley put that friggin Fast idle adjustment screw in such a rotten position I had to lift the carb from the intake to even get a wrench on it.  It looks like a I may have backed it off too far.  Anyway I decided to add a couple spacer gaskets below the carb to make sure the throttle plates would not be dragging.  When I put it together it was running really rich and would not idle worth a crap.  Died at every stop and took some cranking to start.  Not sure if i created a vacuum leak or what.  It was not an enjoyable driving experience today!

So the long and the short, I need to learn about these steering boxes and get that taken care of.  Tomorrow, boat oil Change/ wax and launch, then Mothers day.  So I will be out of commission for a few days anyway.

At least I got the steering back to where it was or close.  I probably need to go for a rebuilt unit, because I am not looking forward to removing that thing.

kcmash

 

[Canted 393]

Send your box to Dan and get yours back, he only deals in ford parts. My turn around time was 10 days from when I sent it to getting it back.

http://www.chockostangclassicmustang.com/rebuildingservices.html

 

[kcmash]

Send your box to Dan and get yours back, he only deals in ford parts. My turn around time was 10 days from when I sent it to getting it back.

http://www.chockostangclassicmustang.com/rebuildingservices.html

Thanks for the lead.  I scoured the web site and saw no Saginaw boxes and no mention of the 71 Steering box for Mustang.  Did he do a 71 box for you or an earlier year?  I just want to know because I realize they are vastly different between the years.

Any idea on price?

kcmash

 

[SteveO_71]

Send your box to Dan and get yours back, he only deals in ford parts. My turn around time was 10 days from when I sent it to getting it back.

http://www.chockostangclassicmustang.com/rebuildingservices.html

Thanks for the lead.  I scoured the web site and saw no Saginaw boxes and no mention of the 71 Steering box for Mustang.  Did he do a 71 box for you or an earlier year?  I just want to know because I realize they are vastly different between the years.

Any idea on price?

kcmash

I also have heard of people trying to adjust the sector shaft play and although things seemed right, the steering box binds and they lose their steering.

I had the power steering box on my 71 done last year, and the price was ~$350 from powersteering.com. Send in the box and 2 weeks later, get the same one back looking like new. Others on here have also used them.

http://www.powersteering.com/power-steering-gearbox-rebuilds/

So, give Marty a call there and talk to him.

At the time I was doing mine, chockostang wasnt rebuilding steering boxes for the 71, but maybe they do now.

You can also rebuild the thing yourself following advice from here or some good youtube videos.

 

[73pony]

Send your box to Dan and get yours back, he only deals in ford parts. My turn around time was 10 days from when I sent it to getting it back.

http://www.chockostangclassicmustang.com/rebuildingservices.html

Thanks for the lead.  I scoured the web site and saw no Saginaw boxes and no mention of the 71 Steering box for Mustang.  Did he do a 71 box for you or an earlier year?  I just want to know because I realize they are vastly different between the years.

Any idea on price?

kcmash

I also have heard of people trying to adjust the sector shaft play and although things seemed right, the steering box binds and they lose their steering.

I had the power steering box on my 71 done last year, and the price was ~$350 from POWERSTEERING.COM. Send in the box and 2 weeks later, get the same one back looking like new. Others on here have also used them.

So, give Marty a call there and talk to him.

At the time I was doing mine, chockostang wasnt rebuilding steering boxes for the 71, but maybe they do now.

+1. They did mine and converted to quick ratio.

 

[Stanglover]

Geoff,

Thanks for the help.  I backed it off and it did OK, but i kinda screwed up the carb, so it was not a day to do a road test.

Holley put that friggin Fast idle adjustment screw in such a rotten position I had to lift the carb from the intake to even get a wrench on it.  It looks like a I may have backed it off too far.  Anyway I decided to add a couple spacer gaskets below the carb to make sure the throttle plates would not be dragging.  When I put it together it was running really rich and would not idle worth a crap.  Died at every stop and took some cranking to start.  Not sure if i created a vacuum leak or what.  It was not an enjoyable driving experience today!

So the long and the short, I need to learn about these steering boxes and get that taken care of.  Tomorrow, boat oil Change/ wax and launch, then Mothers day.  So I will be out of commission for a few days anyway.

At least I got the steering back to where it was or close.  I probably need to go for a rebuilt unit, because I am not looking forward to removing that thing.

kcmash

I just spent 1/2 hr doing a reply only to loose it when I hit the wrong button after pre-viewing. Damn it I hate that there is no automatic save at this point. Rocketfoot help!!

Anyway, now other have replied with much the same as I was addressing, I'll keep this short.

From the companies I looked at, I think the best are;

www.powersteering.com

www.leepowersteering.com

www.steerandgear.com in Ohio was the company that helped me with parts (balls) and advice when I was learning how to do my own PS boxes. Carmen was great and went out of his way to offer help. 

Without going back through, I think you said you had a spare PS box. Maybe that is the one you could get rebuilt or exchange for one already done. You need at least a variable ratio, 3 1/8 TLT, or go for a 12:1 upgrade.

Ford used to have rebuild kits of worm screw balls, but are no longer available. Below is a pdf showing the size increments which were to 5 decimals. 

On your carb, yes the choke adjuster screws are in a ridiculous place, what were they thinking! If it is running too rich, I'm guessing the transfer slots are way to far open. try backing off the curb idle screw and the using a good vacuum gauge use the idle mixture screws to get the highest vacuum, then just back them off very slightly adjusting both the same amount at a time. I've said it many times, carbs are not my thing, but I think I pretty much have the basics down.

When tightening the carb, criss-cross and tightening the nuts and only to about 25 in/lbs or with a 1/4" drive wrench to just tight. That's all I do and had no vacuum leaks.

S-box-balls.pdf