HELP!!! Clearcoat looks like crap

[1973grandeklar]

Let me start by saying that I have painted basecoat and clear coat before, PPG products. However, this is the first time that I used Eastwood products.

I used epoxy primer after my son and I stripped the car. We stripped it by sanding and not chemicals. Did some bondo work and about three weeks later put on 2K urethane high build primer. Block sanded this down. We did not like the looks of it (wavy like) so about a week after the original primer we re-sprayed the 2K primer. Blocked it once again and it was somewhat better. Used HVLP Devillbiss gun for the primer. So far so good.







I followed the Eastwood instructions carefully for both the mixing and the gun set-up. Then I put down candy apple red basecoat. I really did not like the way the basecoat went on. I had to give it three coats to get a decent looking coverage. Even then, I had spots that seemed like the base coat did not lay down nice (orange peel). This was mainly one the back taillight panel and we felt most of this would be covered by the rear insert. I also figured the clearcoat would laydown and smooth over this.

Now the real issue was the clearcoat. I again followed the directions exactly. When I started spraying (1.5 tip), the clear seemed to orange peel badly. I stopped and tried my other HVLP gun (1.3 tip) not much improvement. I laid down the clear in two heavy coats and the clear did seem to flow out and smooth. I figured this would be good enough and I could wet sand and buff the clear to get it into a good shine for street use.

As the clear dried, it looks terrible. Help!!! Any tips, suggestions, what do I do now???





I am not sure if you can see in these pictures, but it appears like tiny bubble formed in the clear, the surface has no shine, and the roof looks whitish in color. It looks like we ruined the paint job and may have to start over


I should add that this is not dust or debris falling from the booth. It was washed out the day before. The booth is sealed and has two exhaust fans and the inlet air is filtered. The paint area is very clean.

One note I should also add. We started painting at 6 am as the temperature was 74 F. By the time I got to clearcoat the temp was about 85 F. I had anticipated this and used the slow urethane activator that is supposed to be good for temperatures above 85 F. The relative humidity was about 45% this morning, I did not check it at the time of applying clearcoat.

 

[judge]

It look like it was too warm. Had a similar problem about 30 years back in a homemade outdoor spray booth. Looked just like yours. Been spraying in the 70° range ever since with no issues.

 

[MotoArts]

And too much humidity. Makes for the milky clear...

The bubble is most likely "solvent pop":

http://www.bodyshopbusiness.com/let-me-out-solvent-popping/

There's probably more on the way.

85 is waAAy too warm IMO.

And now for the bad news...

 

[Austin Vert]

Hi there,

Sorry to see you having problems here. Before i can give you advice, i need to know a few things first if i may.

Firstly, when you shot the 2K primer, what type of gun and setup did you use?

Secondly, when you gave the 2K primer the final sanding down, what grade of paper did you use, and also dry, or wet and dry?

Thirdly,what type of gun and setup did you use for the base coat?

Fourthly, what was the thinning ratio of the base coat, and did you thin it down?

Fifthly, what was the mixing ratio of your clear coat, and did you thin that down as well?

So, i can give more factual advice when you have answers for these questions. However, a few points to note. Base coats should lay down flat and dull looking. There should be no orange peel in the base coat finish.

Your spray temps are getting high around 80 to 85 F.This can bring on probs in relation to how the paint flows and sets up on your panels. Shooting your clear from an HVLP gun can bring on application probs as well, especially if you arn't familiar with HVLP gun techniques. A 1.5 setup can cause flow and lay down issues as well. Also, i haven't used Eastwood paints before, so that is one area or thing i can't give you help or advice on.

I don't know myself, but there possibly might be issues with Eastwood paints in that respect.

Lastly, if you feel you have sprayed enough clear on your job as it stands now, and you feel that there is nothing chemically wrong with the paint you have applied already, then all you need to do is thoroughly sand down your clear coat, with 800wet and dry (wet) till there's no peel left in the finish. You should be able to reapply the base coat and clear coat again with better results. However, if you start rubbing through your clear coat, and expose the base coat repeatedly, you would need to then either, re prime the whole car again from where you are now, or take more drastic action, and sand and remove the clearcoat/ base coat off the car. That's a big labor intensive job though.

Greg.

 

[Qcode351mach]

Which eastwood clear ? The low voc ? If so seems others had the same problem looks to be a spot repair production clear that dries quickly even with slow hardener /reducer..It's not a OVERALL clear..You need a overall clear...As Greg said your base needs to be smooth...I'd sand the clear off. Cut it off down to the base with 320 wet..Then sand the base with 400 then 600..reapply your base.

I'd ditch the eastwood clear. If you want a top notch clear for a very reasonable price go with SPI.

http://www.southernpolyurethanes.com/

Your problem is the clear is drying way to fast during application plus you have a humidity problem..(white or as we say in the trade "blushing" after during application) Could also be caused by the fan or the air being pulled in from the outside over the surface

 

[1973grandeklar]

Greg, let me try and answer all your questions as best I can.

2K gray primer: HVLP with 1.8 tip. Pressure at the gun set at 25 psi. I applied 2 coats waiting about 30 minutes between coats. Temperature in the booth was about 75 F not sure what the RH was. Used a medium activator. Overall the primer went on pretty good. The roof looked like it had streaks, but after sanding with 400 grit (dry) the primer looked good and the panels felt really straight. Then we waited a week before top coating with the base coat. We also were very careful to wipe all surfaces two and three times prior to coating with pre cleaner to ensure no wax or grease was present. As far as I can tell I have no "fish-eyes" anywhere on the surfaces.

Base coat: Same HVLP gun with a 1.3 tip. Pressure at gun set at 15 psi. Again I applied 2 coats waiting about 30 minutes between coats. Temperature in booth at start of bases coat application was 72 F (started at 6:00 AM). By 8:00 AM the temperature reached 80 F. I again used a medium activator and did not thin it per Eastwood's instructions. The basecoat looked good. It had a nice uniform dull finish. Waited an hour before applying the clear.

Clear coat: Another HVLP gun with a 1.3 tip. Pressure set at 15 psi. I started to apply the first coat and did not like how this was laying down on the panels. The pattern seemed like the clear was dry on the edges. Quickly switched to the other HVLP with a 1.5 tip and this seemed to put down the material wet. I used Eastwood low VOC clear as Qcode mentioned with a low activator to slow the cross-linking. Applied two wet coats per Eastwood's instructions waiting 15 minutes between coats. I did not thin the clear coat per Eastwood's instructions.

When I finished applying the clear the temperature was rising and the booth was 85 F. Finished about 9:30 AM. As a reference, the temperature got to about 95 F around 1:00 PM. If you are in NC/SC you know the last week and this week the temperature is very high. So I think I goofed on picking my paint day as the temperature got to hot too fast. But at the same time, how do paint guys use heat to speed the curing process?

MotoArts I read your link and a lot of other sources and my issue is definitely solvent pop. At this point, we are going to sand the roof down to the basecoat and evaluate. Best case: sand off the clear, spray another coat of base coat, and then spray clear. Worst case: sand back down to the primer, coat of primer, apply base coat, then clear coat. In either case I am going to get the show clear instead of the low VOC clear from Eastwood per Qcode recommendation. I would ditch Eastwood, but I still have 3 quarts of base coat, plenty of primer and the Ford candy apple red is beautiful looking (I think this is a 66' Mustang color).

 

[Qcode351mach]

DO NOT USE THE EASTWOOD CLEAR !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I didn't recommend EASTWOOD CLEAR I recommended SPI

USE THE SPI CLEAR WITH SLOW HARDENER

Speak to a tech or Barry over at Spi he will set you up based on your conditions temperature.

 

[judge]

I looked at your pictures again and must ask if you are spraying in a plastic outdoor spray booth? The greenhouse effect will the answers.

 

[1973grandeklar]

I understood Qcode. I will look into the SPI clear. I will not be using the Eastwood low VOC clear.

judge, yes it is a 2x4 frame cover with poly. I have several fans on one end and several filters on the other end. It seems to move a lot of air and keeps the inside from getting hot and humid. However, I did see in some sources that too much air flow over clear coat will skim ddry the surface and trap the solvents as well. Not sure if this contributed, but I will not be doing any more application until the temperature is more like 70 - 75F That may not be until the fall:-(

 

[Elizabeth73]

Not sure if this contributed, but I will not be doing any more application until the temperature is more like 70 - 75F That may not be until the fall:-(

I know nothing about painting or what your set up looks like, but maybe it is possible to put an air conditioning unit in the booth just to bring temperatures to your liking? Put it somewhere high so it sucks the hot air that rises.

 

[judge]

The AC sounds like a good idea. I think that you need to block the sun also.

 

[Don C]

The AC sounds like a good idea. I think that you need to block the sun also.

+1 on both counts. Even though you cool it the radiant energy from the sun will warm the surface.

The AC will also help to reduce the humidity.

 

[Qcode351mach]

Nobody runs a/c in a paint booth the motors aren't rated explosion proof..

All he needs is the correct materials for the temperature he's spraying & turn off the fan within 1 minute of finishing..

 

[judge]

Nobody runs a/c in a paint booth the motors aren't rated explosion proof..

All he needs is the correct materials for the temperature hes spraying & turn off the fan within 1 minute of finishing..

You sound so sure. The sun is warming the car, the car is warming the air. He has to block the sun.

 

[Austin Vert]

Nobody runs a/c in a paint booth the motors aren't rated explosion proof..

All he needs is the correct materials for the temperature hes spraying & turn off the fan within 1 minute of finishing..

Scott is 100% correct. Nobody runs A/C in a spray booth. Why? Because as Scott says, your motors and any electrical circuits/components, become potential fire/explosion hazzards. Dangerous stuff. Also the concept of trying to use a/c systems to control temps and humidity issues is totally self defeating. The air input and output of an a/c system would never be able to cope or keep up with the volume and air flow going through the booth itself. It would be a total waste of time.

Sounds plausible in theory, but would never work in practice. Sorry. Also, grandeklar, i sent you PM offering further tech help and advice. The offer is still there if i can be of any further help to you.

Greg.

 

[Qcode351mach]

Nobody runs a/c in a paint booth the motors aren't rated explosion proof..

All he needs is the correct materials for the temperature hes spraying & turn off the fan within 1 minute of finishing..

You sound so sure. The sun is warming the car, the car is warming the air. He has to block the sun.

I agree about the clear plastic roof OUTSIDE....As someone who started off & painted cars on a driveway out in the open & then with more than 30 years in the collision biz I think I have just a little bit of experience..The second he turns the fan on any thing the a/c did would be gone within 5 minutes (pulling in the outside air) Running a a/c unit in a spray booth environment WHILE your painting is just plain dangerous. Not only that it's going to be blowing in cold air, good luck with not having it blow dust into your fresh paint..I have never seen one set up be run while painting even in a home shop spray booth..Although I'm sure someone somewhere was stupid enough to do it..What he should really do is rent some booth time at a local shop OR tech school.

 

[1973grandeklar]

I think I need to clarify the booth set-up. It is a frame with poly covering it. But I also have a dark tarp over the top specifically to keep the temp and direct sun from heating the booth. The booth is also shaded by the real garage by mid-afternoon.

According to what I have been able to research, I put the clear on to soon without enough time for the basecoat and flash times. I was too aggressive to get the car painted and done. I also left my fans running for about 10 minutes after painting. I should of shut them off within one minute as Q-code suggested above.

The plan is to strip the clear down to the basecoat. I will then apply another coat of color using the correct temperature activators. I am also going to wait for a cool day and lower humidity. That may mean I may not be able to paint it for several months. But that is OK as I also need to make sure the paint on the car is cured and the solvents escaped after I get the clear off. I also plan on using an alternative clear (the SPI looks very good) and not use the Eastwood.

In the meantime, the door jambs now look crappy with overspray and my son and I will most likely sand them down and basecoat and clear them when we do the body again. We originally did not care, but now it looks like it would be best to do them. Anything special I need to watch for when doing door jams? Spray these first, then the car?

 

[Don C]

Thanks for setting me straight about the ventilation and no AC for a paint booth. The last time I painted a car was in our garage when my Dad and I painted my '55 Ford Ming Green with enamel paint. It actually came out pretty decent. I was 16, and that was many, many years ago. I'll have enough room in my workshop to screen off a temporary paint booth when I get ready to paint mine, so what I'm learning from you paint pros is invaluable.

Don

 

[Justin71]

Note to self: Always pay a trusted pro to paint my car.