LS swap?

[Silverback]

Why would you feel weird putting a Windsor in one?Didn't they come with 302's in them?

Because the car is an original 4bbl Mach 1.  To me it feels like a windsor is just half assing it.  Going completely different engine family is "I decided to experiment with something else."

This whole LS swap thing is just like every street rod having a SBC in it,monkey see monkey do or sheep following the herd.If cost is such a big concern wouldn't it be cheaper to just buy an LS equipped camaro or maybe start rodding Yugos,they are cheap.

Back in the true hot rodding days it didn't bother me to see a 327, a hemi, a Cadillac, or anything else in a Ford body. It was understandable. These hot rodders had imagination and put in the work to accomplish something.

Just because they're (LSs) cheap and easy doesn't cut it as far as I'm concerned.  I agree with others, I consider it blasphemy to stick an LS in any Ford. If cost is that much of a concern why have a classic car? They're not cheap to build or maintain.

I've owned a bunch of later model f-bodies, and those specifically in my mind follow the sheep following... deal, any f-body really.  Everyone LS swaps them and there are plenty of good choices that will accomplish the same thing without LS swapping them.

With the original Cleveland engine in these cars there aren't as many good parts choices out there if you want to build something really trick, at least not without a ton of looking for $$$ and rare parts.  Honestly I like to tinker with my cars, and I REALLY didn't want a car that was worth anything in original form.  I stumbled on an original 4bbl 71 Mach 1, mostly complete, mostly straight, no rust besides a little surface rust arizona car with 60some K miles that had been stored since the 80's for VERY cheap, like as in cheaper than ANY car I've ever bought (and I've owned some beaters).  I figure that when I get around to messing with the drivetrain in this car I'll pull it and store it properly, since it being with the car is what gives it value.  

When I get to messing with this thing whatever goes in it will be done to be bolt in.  Things that have gone through my head have been the a crazy cleveland build using nascar style parts and maybe aussi aluminum heads, LS swap, Ecoboost (I own a 2012 SHO which is loads of fun and fast for a 4600lb car), convert to electric, a big block of some sort, a late model mod motor (almost a non starter, they're physically enormous, bigger than a big block and I worked on too many of them when I worked at the speed shop, I don't like them)... out of that list the cleveland and LS would be the easiest to do as a bolt in, the rest I doubt could be done without cutting the car up some.  The crazy C build would be a real PITA to get parts for, and I'd likely want to find another block to start with...  the LS will have the much greater flexibility WRT to available parts to do my tinkering with.

I could care less what others are doing or not doing with the cars and whatever engine.  I build oddball stuff that people tell me is impossible anyway (my other big project right now is a Trans Am with a 30y/o stock bottom end 305in it, with a completely custom converted LT1 headed top end and valve train making 481hp to the tires...  no one believes you can make LS crushing power with a 305, no one believed I'd get the LT1 heads working on it, or get the flow numbers that I did with the small bore, or make this kind of power out of a low compression turbo build without a turbo on it... what do you think it will be like turbocharged?)

 

[73pony]

Some cool ideas there. I am kind of intrigued by the electric idea. Something that would be wayyyy beyond my abilities but I have seen some crazy **** with electric cars. I am curious as to what direction you decide to go. And you are correct on the cost of a Cleveland build, it gets a bit spendy very quick.

 

[flstf09]

429/460 is way more "bolt in" than a ls.No cutting up the car at all.

 

[downwardspiral]

4bt's are also a popular swap for the FSJ jeeps.  Some go 6bt's but the extra weight adds all kinds of complications.     For now I am happy with my 71 Jav 401 tucked under the hood.  

And at least you are not talking about a diesel swap into the mustang.  Now that I would have a hard time getting behind.

That I would just do behind closed doors.. I know better than to post than on a classic car forum 

Pushrod Ford....yes. Even coyote/roadrunner...ok

LS?....no way for me.

I would love a coyote, and have a 2011 mustang which I rebuilt the engine in (and an 04 mountaineer with a 4.6 that was apart). I like modulars but they are huge compared to the LS/pushrod fords. I am kind of turned off from pushrod fords because I have a coyote powered car that was supercharged. LS's are direct competetors with coyotes so it's a logical step to me. 

Why would you feel weird putting a Windsor in one?Didn't they come with 302's in them?

Because the car is an original 4bbl Mach 1.  To me it feels like a windsor is just half assing it.  Going completely different engine family is "I decided to experiment with something else."

This whole LS swap thing is just like every street rod having a SBC in it,monkey see monkey do or sheep following the herd.If cost is such a big concern wouldn't it be cheaper to just buy an LS equipped camaro or maybe start rodding Yugos,they are cheap.

Back in the true hot rodding days it didn't bother me to see a 327, a hemi, a Cadillac, or anything else in a Ford body. It was understandable. These hot rodders had imagination and put in the work to accomplish something.

Just because they're (LSs) cheap and easy doesn't cut it as far as I'm concerned.  I agree with others, I consider it blasphemy to stick an LS in any Ford. If cost is that much of a concern why have a classic car? They're not cheap to build or maintain.

I've owned a bunch of later model f-bodies, and those specifically in my mind follow the sheep following... deal, any f-body really.  Everyone LS swaps them and there are plenty of good choices that will accomplish the same thing without LS swapping them.

With the original Cleveland engine in these cars there aren't as many good parts choices out there if you want to build something really trick, at least not without a ton of looking for $$$ and rare parts.  Honestly I like to tinker with my cars, and I REALLY didn't want a car that was worth anything in original form.  I stumbled on an original 4bbl 71 Mach 1, mostly complete, mostly straight, no rust besides a little surface rust arizona car with 60some K miles that had been stored since the 80's for VERY cheap, like as in cheaper than ANY car I've ever bought (and I've owned some beaters).  I figure that when I get around to messing with the drivetrain in this car I'll pull it and store it properly, since it being with the car is what gives it value.  

When I get to messing with this thing whatever goes in it will be done to be bolt in.  Things that have gone through my head have been the a crazy cleveland build using nascar style parts and maybe aussi aluminum heads, LS swap, Ecoboost (I own a 2012 SHO which is loads of fun and fast for a 4600lb car), convert to electric, a big block of some sort, a late model mod motor (almost a non starter, they're physically enormous, bigger than a big block and I worked on too many of them when I worked at the speed shop, I don't like them)... out of that list the cleveland and LS would be the easiest to do as a bolt in, the rest I doubt could be done without cutting the car up some.  The crazy C build would be a real PITA to get parts for, and I'd likely want to find another block to start with...  the LS will have the much greater flexibility WRT to available parts to do my tinkering with.

I could care less what others are doing or not doing with the cars and whatever engine.  I build oddball stuff that people tell me is impossible anyway (my other big project right now is a Trans Am with a 30y/o stock bottom end 305in it, with a completely custom converted LT1 headed top end and valve train making 481hp to the tires...  no one believes you can make LS crushing power with a 305, no one believed I'd get the LT1 heads working on it, or get the flow numbers that I did with the small bore, or make this kind of power out of a low compression turbo build without a turbo on it... what do you think it will be like turbocharged?)

I feel like we think alike.

429/460 is way more "bolt in" than a ls.No cutting up the car at all.

I honestly haven't thought much about the big block route. All I see is dollar signs but I could definitely be wrong. The problem I forsee is cooling with the cast iron everything. Aluminum seems to be the way to go if I'm not going cleveland. Aluminum by nature dissipates heat quickly.

 

[Stanglover]

429/460 is way more "bolt in" than a ls.No cutting up the car at all.

I honestly haven't thought much about the big block route. All I see is dollar signs but I could definitely be wrong. The problem I forsee is cooling with the cast iron everything. Aluminum seems to be the way to go if I'm not going cleveland. Aluminum by nature dissipates heat quickly.

 I've been biting my tongue on this one, but I finally had to open my mouth so to speak.

 First, why should heat be that big a problem. That's my first response. If you really want Aluminum, go buy a Coyote crate engine, then you would really have something to talk about.

 We have not heard from him in awhile, but there is a guy in Alaska putting a Chev engine in a Mach 1, just because he has it already to go and 351C's are harder to find in the Great White North. Wonder how he's doing?

 I too absolutely hate it when I see Chev engines put into Ford hot-rods or anything else, that's just not right. Having said that, I will admit Chev engines 'package' better with the distributor at the rear, but that's about all I can say for them.

 I did get a laugh the other day when I watched an episode of "MobSteel" on the History channel (I think it was) where the boys from Detroit bought a Chevy station wagon, left it complete as found outwardly, put a great interior into it, Then.... wait for it...... they went to Rousch Industries and bought a super hotted up Ford engine complete with a tunable exhaust system and put IT into the Chev. Now that's a proper engine swap!!

 

[Don C]

 I did get a laugh the other day when I watched an episode of "MobSteel" on the History channel (I think it was) where the boys from Detroit bought a Chevy station wagon, left it complete as found outwardly, put a great interior into it, Then.... wait for it...... they went to Rousch Industries and bought a super hotted up Ford engine complete with a tunable exhaust system and put IT into the Chev. Now that's a proper engine swap!!

+1, I saw that one, too. That was a real sleeper and I enjoyed the turnabout and fair play aspect of it. It put out some serious horsepower, around 700, I believe.

The tunable exhaust intrigues me. It uses a handheld remote, but was not for a cutout. The exhaust could be remotely tuned from relatively quiet to very loud, but not as loud as a cutout.

 

[Stanglover]

 I did get a laugh the other day when I watched an episode of "MobSteel" on the History channel (I think it was) where the boys from Detroit bought a Chevy station wagon, left it complete as found outwardly, put a great interior into it, Then.... wait for it...... they went to Rousch Industries and bought a super hotted up Ford engine complete with a tunable exhaust system and put IT into the Chev. Now that's a proper engine swap!!

+1, I saw that one, too. That was a real sleeper and I enjoyed the turnabout and fair play aspect of it. It put out some serious horsepower, around 700, I believe.

The tunable exhaust intrigues me. It uses a handheld remote, but was not for a cutout. The exhaust could be remotely tuned from relatively quiet to very loud, but not as loud as a cutout.

 Yes, that exhaust intrigued me too. Not cheap I would imagine, but wouldn't that be fun to have.

 

[downwardspiral]

I may actually go this route, just checked out my friend's LS swap car and looked into the potential issues we would run into. Right away, the steering linkage would interfere with a rear-sump oil pan. I am pretty sure I would need to eliminate the clutch z-bar all together and run a hydraulic throw out bearing. I would like to have more than 4 gears anyway so I would be looking for an engine and trans setup. I already need new exhaust and my driveshaft is a failure waiting to happen so that's not really a big deal. There are several options for exhaust manifolds so I will need to take a bunch of measurements before I am positive it will work but it seems pretty straightforward at the moment. I am estimating the whole swap to be roughly the same as just building the cleveland and using my existing exhaust, trans and driveshaft. Seems like the way to go as of right now.

I'm sorry everyone. 

 

[sicndhed]

I think LS engines are ugly and common and a shortcut to making HP and can nickle and dime you to death when swapped into old cars. That's why I only use them into cars with hoods that I plan to put lots of miles on.

Something to consider when when an "old school" guy says small block engines from the sixties can also be built to 400-500-600 HP, is the difference in cam timing required to do so. As a broad brush generalization I believe an LS will typically produce equal peak numbers with 20 degrees less duration than a well build early style engine. Pardon my reference to chebbys but it's what I know best. My '69 Camaro has a 406 built using modern aftermarket parts. It's based on well know standard recipes for a street engine in the 525 HP zone, aftermarket block, AFR 195 heads, hyd roller mid 240's @.050", 11.5:1, 850 on a Victor JR ported to match the heads. I'm putting a crate LS3 with a cam that has 18 degrees less duration in a '69 Vette. It will probably make about 20 more peak HP but have much better driveabilty and up to 10 more mpg. Ultimate HP is not what sells me on LS engines. It's the streetabilty that is preserved while making the power. I have a crate LSX 454 (street version for the LSX 454 R) for a Factory Five build. Chevy rates the engine at 620HP. Those who've dynoed them for themselves typically see 650-670 HP. A small block at that power level is nice but the thing that impresses me if the cam. The intake is only 236 @ .050".

 

[GonHuntin]

I am in the process of putting an LS1 and T56 in my '68 camaro. As soon as that project is on the road, my son and I will be parting out a '98 z28 convertible and putting the LS1 and T56 in his 73 Mustang convertible.

We considered a cleveland or windsor, but we looked at cost of building an aluminum headed 351......we also looked at modular motors and the hack job necessary to fit one of those......in the end, an LS just makes more sense, especially when you figure in the cost of a TKO 600 or T56. There are LOTS of early mustang LS swaps on pro touring, Lateral G and LS1Tech boards. If you discount the "brand" name on the motor and simply look at the logistics and cost, the LS wins every time. Like it or not, they are more compact, less expensive, last forever and make cheap and easy horsepower, especially if you boost them a bit.

My son bought the complete running and driving LS1 T56 Z28 convertible for $3000 and drove it home, he will sell parts we don't need and recover a good chunk of the purchase price. We bought a front sump GTO pan and exhaust manifolds and will build our own engine mounts and transmission crossmember. I expect the most challenging issue will be designing and building a bracket to mount and operate the z28 clutch master cylinder.

Don't get me wrong, I owned and raced a street/strip 67 fastback with a built cleveland, toploader and 4.11 9" and I really like the cleveland platform, but there is no way we could build an aluminum headed fuel injected roller cammed cleveland for anywhere close to the money as the LS.

If you can show me where to get a fuel injected, roller cam, aluminum headed ford with a T56, that makes 350+ horsepower at the crank, for less than we will have in the ls swap I'd sure be interested in hearing about it!!

If his '73 was a big block car or something other than a 302 2v c4 car, we might look at things differently, but he is young and doesn't have a lot of money so he wants the most bang for the buck.

 

[downwardspiral]

I think LS engines are ugly and common and a shortcut to making HP and can nickle and dime you to death when swapped into old cars.   That's why I only use them into cars with hoods that I plan to put lots of miles on.

Something to consider when when an "old school" guy says small block engines from the sixties can also be built to 400-500-600 HP, is the difference in cam timing required to do so.  As a broad brush generalization I believe an LS will typically produce equal peak numbers with 20 degrees less duration than a well build early style engine.   Pardon my reference to chebbys but it's what I know best.  My '69 Camaro has a 406 built using modern aftermarket parts.  It's based on well know standard recipes for a street engine in the 525 HP zone, aftermarket block, AFR 195 heads, hyd roller mid 240's @.050", 11.5:1, 850 on a Victor JR ported to match the heads.  I'm putting a crate LS3 with a cam that has 18 degrees less duration in a '69 Vette.  It will probably make about 20 more peak HP but have much better driveabilty and up to 10 more mpg.  Ultimate HP is not what sells me on LS engines.  It's the streetabilty that is preserved while making the power.  I have a crate LSX 454 (street version for the LSX 454 R) for a Factory Five build.  Chevy rates the engine at 620HP.  Those who've dynoed them for themselves typically see 650-670 HP.  A small block at that power level is nice but the thing that impresses me if the cam.  The intake is only 236 @ .050".  

I am in the process of putting an LS1 and T56 in my '68 camaro. As soon as that project is on the road, my son and I will be parting out a '98 z28 convertible and putting the LS1 and T56 in his 73 Mustang convertible.

We considered a cleveland or windsor, but we looked at cost of building an aluminum headed 351......we also looked at modular motors and the hack job necessary to fit one of those......in the end, an LS just makes more sense, especially when you figure in the cost of a TKO 600 or T56. There are LOTS of early mustang LS swaps on pro touring, Lateral G and LS1Tech boards. If you discount the "brand" name  on the motor and simply look at the logistics and cost, the LS wins every time. Like it or not, they are more compact, less expensive, last forever and make cheap and easy horsepower, especially if you boost them a bit.

My son bought the complete running and driving LS1 T56 Z28 convertible for $3000 and drove it home, he will sell parts we don't need and recover a good chunk of the purchase price. We bought a front sump GTO pan and exhaust manifolds and will build our own engine mounts and transmission crossmember. I expect the most challenging issue will be designing and building a bracket to mount and operate the z28 clutch master cylinder.

Don't get me wrong, I owned and raced a street/strip 67 fastback with a built cleveland, toploader and 4.11 9" and I really like the cleveland platform, but there is no way we could build an aluminum headed fuel injected roller cammed cleveland  for anywhere close to the money as the LS.

If you can show me where to get a fuel injected, roller cam, aluminum headed ford with a T56, that makes 350+ horsepower at the crank, for less than we will have in the ls swap I'd sure be interested in hearing about it!!

If his '73 was a big block car or something other than a 302 2v c4 car, we might look at things differently, but he is young and doesn't have a lot of money so he wants the most bang for the buck.

I'm also drawn to the idea for the reliability and road manners.  I don't want a 600 hp cleveland to drive on the streets because it probably means filled block, no vacuum and will rattle your teeth out. I would be just fine with a 400ish hp Cleveland which isn't rocket surgery to make happen. It looks like I am keeping the Cleveland since a friend came through at the last minute asking if I want to buy his fresh bottom end for cheap. I have built heads rusting away on the bench in my garage, and will just need to drop the $1000+ on my cam now. It will work out cheaper than the LS swap and I will be on the road much much quicker which was my main concern. I may still start collecting parts for the swap so when the time comes it's ready to roll.

 Looks like you're both having some fun, nice builds!