My 1973 project daily driver

[JDuvall]

I have some of my questions answered after tearing down the engine.
The camshaft was replaced but the bearings were whipped out. The camshaft would barely turn by hand and get stuck.
5 of the pistons had broken top rings. The rod bearings were down to copper.

So the plan now is a 408 stroker kit, roller cam and put it all back together with a stud kit for the mains, after the block is bored and cleaned up at the machine shop.

I do have a question about heads. I have a set of 1970 4v closed chambered heads. They need valves and rebuilt. Valve guides hardened seats, pedestals milled for adjustable rocker arms.
So the question is should I use the cast iron head or go with an aftermarket aluminum head?
I know most aluminum heads already have everything setup for bronze value guides and adjustable rocker arms.
Are they that much better than the cast iron?

Again thanks to everyone following this thread and giving all the great feedback and advice!

 

[giantpune]

I know most aluminum heads already have everything setup for bronze value guides and adjustable rocker arms.
Are they that much better than the cast iron?

When I was going back and forth with the shop who built mine, they said aluminum heads would realistically add 25-40HP at the flywheel. And then figure in the weigh reduction. Cutting weight is like adding horsepower.

Its not all about peak HP though. The cast iron 4V heads perform worse in the lower RPM range than the cast iron 2V. Stock 4V heads are a performance hit where your car would spend most of its time.

Aluminum heads can get you more power across the board, plus a smidge more peak power, plus save on weight.

 

[Ripper679]

Yep.... aluminum heads. First off.... they save weight... but realistically they dissipate heat better and with modern cad and CNC design they beat cast iron in flow and even cooling with better coolant flow passages within the head . Not to say cast iron heads are bad.... I've seen some that have been on a flow bench that do flow after someone put some time into them...... but in all reality..... the manufacturers of the engine components (or google) you are building can probably point you to a proven head that works with your combo. I run aluminum and have never looked back. Just be nice to your header bolts. Only one or two, ugga-duggas when tightening them.
Besides.
They look cool and chick's dig em. It's in the Bible.


Probably.

 

[Hemikiller]

@JDuvall - I think what people are getting hung up on is the "daily driver" in your title and first post. If your project is evolving away from that, you can edit them to change the scope of your project.

Regardless of what you're building, you need to ensure the block is capable of handling any power level. Sonic checking the cylinder walls for thickness, Magnafluxing for cracks etc.

Considering you're starting from scratch on the heads, I would go aluminum. The TFS heads are well regarded, readily available and have good features for the price point. There are of course AFD, CHI and SCM, but availability on those is often sketchy and involves a significant shipping charge. ProComp/Speedmaster heads are attractive at the price point, but have a bad rep and often require a significant investment in machine shop work to be usable.

TrackBoss aka Tim Meyer has a nice stroker kit with top quality parts. You can buy just the parts, or have it balanced by him and add in a Romac Balancer and SFI flywheel.

https://www.tmeyerinc.com/product/rotating-assembly-351c-stroker/

 

[JDuvall]

@JDuvall - I think what people are getting hung up on is the "daily driver" in your title and first post. If your project is evolving away from that, you can edit them to change the scope of your project.

Regardless of what you're building, you need to ensure the block is capable of handling any power level. Sonic checking the cylinder walls for thickness, Magnafluxing for cracks etc.

Considering you're starting from scratch on the heads, I would go aluminum. The TFS heads are well regarded, readily available and have good features for the price point. There are of course AFD, CHI and SCM, but availability on those is often sketchy and involves a significant shipping charge. ProComp/Speedmaster heads are attractive at the price point, but have a bad rep and often require a significant investment in machine shop work to be usable.

TrackBoss aka Tim Meyer has a nice stroker kit with top quality parts. You can buy just the parts, or have it balanced by him and add in a Romac Balancer and SFI flywheel.

https://www.tmeyerinc.com/product/rotating-assembly-351c-stroker/

Thanks for the info Hemikiller.
I have been looking at truck flow and chi heads. The max speed and speed masters price make it temping but from what I have seen you are better off starting with a bare head and doing all the work, which doesn’t really save you a lot in the long run. As for my car, this is still going to be a daily driver. No it won’t be drive in a foot of snow I have a truck for that. I am not worried about gas mileage either. With today’s technology I can have a 500 hp 4 cylinder turbo and daily drive it. The current base model mustang is 315 horsepower out of a 2.3 turbo.
500-600 horsepower should be very achievable. The new Mustang GT is 480hp natural aspirated 5.0. People are supercharging them and driving them daily.
Yes I will have to upgrade my brakes and rear suspension to handle the extra horsepower. Along with subframe connectors and probably 4 point roll cage.
The stock 7.3L in the F150 is 480hp.
I don’t think 500-600 is unreasonable out of a 351-408 and still be drivable on the street daily. I could be wrong though.

 

[AcesArneson]

I pretty much disagree with all of the rest of you. Stroking out the Cleveland to 408 is the best thing for the 4V heads, especially the closed chambers. If you want low end performance you just need some port stuffers from Price Motorsports. I know it seems counterintuitive to block off part of the intake port but the 4V heads are so overbuilt for most moderate rebuilds that cutting off some space in the port really increases flow which will help you on the bottom end. Additionally I would look at an aftermarket dual plane intake. They will add to your lower and mid range torque without sacrificing your top end too much. If I haven’t convinced you to keep the closed chamber 4V heads then sell them to me and I will use them instead of my CJ heads.

Here is a link for DragBoss, over 600hp without a stroker kit. It's not that hard with stock close chamber heads. You just need an aggressive cam with big lift.

 

[giantpune]

The current base model mustang is 315 horsepower out of a 2.3 turbo.
500-600 horsepower should be very achievable. The new Mustang GT is 480hp natural aspirated 5.0. People are supercharging them and driving them daily.
Yes I will have to upgrade my brakes and rear suspension to handle the extra horsepower. Along with subframe connectors and probably 4 point roll cage.
The stock 7.3L in the F150 is 480hp.
I don’t think 500-600 is unreasonable out of a 351-408 and still be drivable on the street daily. I could be wrong though.

I think the difference though is all those have computers and extra tricks up their sleeves. Variable valve timing, 7500rpm red line, electric power steering to not rob HP, and of coarse the turbo one has boost.

The boost and the cam phasers are some of what allow them to not have to pick between drivability and performance. Back in the land of 50yr old pushrod engines, you get 1 cam shaft and the valve timing is the same at cruise as it is at WOT. Whatever parameters you are using to hit 600HP are the same parameters you live with at idle and 1700RPM.

For more realistic expectations, I would look for other older 600HP pushrod engined cars with similar displacement and see how they drive around. They will probably be closer to the more extreme end of the choppy/lopey idle cam and have lower vacuum.

 

[Ripper679]

I think the difference though is all those have computers and extra tricks up their sleeves. Variable valve timing, 7500rpm red line, electric power steering to not rob HP, and of coarse the turbo one has boost.

The boost and the cam phasers are some of what allow them to not have to pick between drivability and performance. Back in the land of 50yr old pushrod engines, you get 1 cam shaft and the valve timing is the same at cruise as it is at WOT. Whatever parameters you are using to hit 600HP are the same parameters you live with at idle and 1700RPM.

For more realistic expectations, I would look for other older 600HP pushrod engined cars with similar displacement and see how they drive around. They will probably be closer to the more extreme end of the choppy/lopey idle cam and have lower vacuum.

Yep.
You are going to have a healthy idle. Fuel injection is a great way to keep the idle circuit more tolerable at the stoplight (less gas smell etc). I run big manual brakes that necessitate a 18" rim .... so vacuum isn't a concern for me. Car stops on a dime.... but be fair and don't compare it to modern ABS braking systems. Like anything there are comprises. Im just here telling you that I street almost 600 horspower on hot California summers in traffic on the freeway. It's not bad, totally doable and quite easy to do. There are many ways to get there. Aluminum heads, cast iron heads.... both can work. Choose your preference. I prefer a modern designed head for the benefits I posted in a earlier thread and from personal experience. The main takeaway is once you get near that 500hp mark... it is no longer about the engine. It is about balancing the ENTIRE car. Bigger cooling system, I run big dual electric SPAL fans. Big breaks because stopping is more important than not stopping. Better suspension upgrades has to handle the increased entry and exit speeds your car will find itself in. These must be done for a truly balanced car. I'd take a car with big brakes and a good coil over suspension setup with 200 horspower over a car with 550hp with lesser suspension and brakes. I know because I have owned and built both.
It's a package. Please don't lose sight of that or you may gain sight of a telephone pole when she gets away from ya.
No disrespect intended.

 

[Hemikiller]

I know of many very streetable classic cars that pull down some impressive numbers in the 600hp to 700hp range and can drive for days. Not a single one of them is "daily driver" material. One lick of moisture and they're an absolute handful. IMO, a daily driver needs to handle whatever weather the current season throws at it, rain being the most common, and not try to kill the driver every chance it gets.

As Giantpune alluded to, you cannot directly compare a modern "computer on wheels" to a vintage vehicle with the same HP. These modern cars are using very advanced technology - throttle and torque management strategies, cam phasers to adjust cam timing, fuel and ignition mapping and optimization, and stability control systems that monitor wheel speed and slip - all of which is used to attain those big numbers *and* keep the car pointed in the right direction *and* on the road.

I've daily'd this generation of Mustangs since I started driving in '89 - rain, snow, ice, you name it. I drove 45 miles each way commuting to college in a 71 sportsroof year round, used that same car to deliver for Domino's in all manner of New England weather, same with a rusty M-code 4 speed 71 XR7. 300hp - no problem as long as you have good tires, the chassis is in good shape and the loose nut behind the wheel has half a clue. Crest that 400hp hill and things change quickly. Another 71 sportsroof daily had a 351C that pushed very close to 400hp and it was a very, very different animal in the wet.

 

[JDuvall]

Merry Christmas everyone! I have been traveling for work more than planned and will be doing it again next year, so progressing is a little slower than planned. I am almost done prepping the block to go to the machine shop. I am adding the moroso oil restrictor kit, cleaning up the oil ports, going with the larger oil filter adapter and will be adding the external oil line kit when I get the block back.
Happy new year to everyone!

 

[JDuvall]

Happy new year everyone! I am one step closer 99% of parts for the engine are ordered. Unfortunately the scat stoker kit is delayed until March. Engine block is at the machine shop they will have to wait till march for the pistons for the final hone.
Will have to get new push rods for the roller cam setup along with rocker arms still deciding on shaft or stud girdle setup. Have to decide on harmonic balancer , fluid or conventional. Need to decide on headers to buy.
I am building a test run stand for the engine so I can break the cam and rings in and do all the adjustments before it goes in the car.

I hope everyone had a good start to the year. I will post pictures as I get parts in and the stand setup. Thanks your all the advice and tagging along for the ride.

 

[JDuvall]

Checking back in, my scat stroker kit came in early. So now I am getting the piston coated and will do a mock up to check the rod clearance and make sure everything will fit before final honing and block cleaning.
I do have a couple of questions.
Looking for suggestions on harmonic balancer and flywheel.
Machine shop recommended ATI harmonic balancer a steel SFI rated flywheel.
What is everyone running on their 408?
Mine is a scat regular weight forged externally 28oz balance crankshaft. If that help

 

[Cleveland Crush]

Checking back in, my scat stroker kit came in early. So now I am getting the piston coated and will do a mock up to check the rod clearance and make sure everything will fit before final honing and block cleaning.
I do have a couple of questions.
Looking for suggestions on harmonic balancer and flywheel.
Machine shop recommended ATI harmonic balancer a steel SFI rated flywheel.
What is everyone running on their 408?
Mine is a scat regular weight forged externally 28oz balance crankshaft. If that help

How will your Stang be typically driven? ATI is certainly a good conventional damper choice with a big following, along with others. Inovators West offers hybrid style dampers that have a strong following also.
As to the flywheel, again depends on the car's purpose. Standard weight steel(sfi approved) will cover a wide range of driving styles, but there's certainly a place for light weight steel or aluminum. All depends on the application.

 

[JDuvall]

As for typical driving 50/50 highway to stop and go traffic. There will be drag strip time during warm weather on the weekends.
Innovators West is two hours from me and I am finding more information on them.
Anyone know of someone running their stuff?
Is anyone running an aluminum flywheel on a stroker?
Sorry for all the questions, just trying to get all my ducks in row, before I have to start assembling.

 

[Cleveland Crush]

As for typical driving 50/50 highway to stop and go traffic. There will be drag strip time during warm weather on the weekends.
Innovators West is two hours from me and I am finding more information on them.
Anyone know of someone running their stuff?
Is anyone running an aluminum flywheel on a stroker?
Sorry for all the questions, just trying to get all my ducks in row, before I have to start assembling.

I've run Inovators West dampers on a few different Cleveland engines from 351cid thru 427cid, including in my current Mustang set-up. I give them very high marks. With that said, the ATI's and Fluid Dampers I've ran also get high marks. As to flywheel question, based on your stated driving style, my opinion is standard weight steel is the way to go.

 

[Hemikiller]

Im running a McLeod flywheel and a Romac balancer. Balanced with no issues and factory pulleys line up correctly.

 

[JDuvall]

More parts coming in. Block machining should be done mid March. I am hoping to have the engine back together and running by early April. Wish me luck!

 

[JDuvall]

Machine shop just called they have the block rough bored. Unfortunately I am out of town for work till next weekend. When I get back I will be doing a mockup to check clearances on the crank and rods. Then back to the machine shop for final honing and balancing. I might actually get the short block assembly this month!

 

[JDuvall]

Time flies when you are waiting on parts and traveling for work.
Quick update.
Talked to the machine shop they hope to have my crankshaft balanced next week. My oil pan and rockers got discontinued by Jegs so I have to get different ones. Still trying to find a good oil pan.
Still need a clutch kit and a single plane intake.
Still hope to have the engine running and in the car this July, keep your fingers crossed.

 

[Tnfastbk]

I know I'm late to the party but I am running the ATI Rattler Harmonic balancer on my 408. Fly wheel was SFI approved when bought. I had a cheaper balancer to start with and had issues with it. ATI was way more expensive at the time but seems to be worth it.